Irish domination of the magners. Good thing or bad thing?

durkadurka

It seems the Irish are starting to dominate the magners , filling the first three positions, and Connacht nearly beating all the scots and Italians.

Also Leinster and munster do this while rarely fielding a full team. We have the biggest crowds and are the only ones who have a policy and the financial welly to keep our players at home.

Great that we're doing well but it's a worry for me that the scots are very poor and the welsh teams are going in the same direction.

Surely we will need better competition going forward. I wonder will the league even exist in it's current format in a few years.

thomond2006

It really shouldn't be tbh. Irish sides are forced by the IRFU to chop and change the internationals in and out of the team while the other sides (generally) pick a consistent strong side. It's hard to say whether the Irish success this year can be attributed to the depth of our squads or because the other sides are poor.

IMO the Welsh and certainly the Scottish sides have disimproved this year. Treviso made some impact while Aironi didn't, I expect both sides to do better next season.

While winning is never a bad thing, the fact that a team like Munster have cantered to the top without ever playing consistently well can't be good for anyone really.

jolley123

What are the other options? Surely the French and English will want to maintain their domestic leagues, so don't we kind of have to settle for the Welsh and Scots.

I think a huge part of it, is the fact that supporters in Wales and Scotland find it hard to support the clubs. I mean Ospreys are a combination of Neath and Swansea. two places that don't get along. I think they should revamp the club system in Wales and make 1 or 2 more clubs in scotland. Then have a Division 2 like the championship.

Having clubs like Cardiff and Edinburgh is like having a club called Limerick and then expecting people from Cork and Kerry to support it.

durkadurka

It worries me that if the others continue to decline then fans will get bored watching half strength irish teams phone in handy victories, and attendances will slip , with all the knock on effects that it entails.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I don't mind Irish dominance but the other teams do need to step up somewhat.

Ireland are in a situation where they need a competitive league, not two Irish teams winning when they send a full team out but sending a mix out through the season, a third Irish team that does well but suffers from a lack of depth, three average Welsh teams and a number of poor teams propping up the table.

Hopefully the league attracts a new sponsor who will put good money into the league and help the other teams improve their competitiveness.

Podge_irl

Ospreys have won the league more then anyone, are reigning champions and are in the semi-finals. I wouldn't go so far as to call it dominance yet.

durkadurka

We'll see how the ospreys do this week but we know they are losing players to France which doesn't bode well.

The welsh seemed to be trying to fail the last month or so.

ambid

Excellent thread topic.

I think all things are cyclical. Irish teams are dominant now but that could change as everything has a life cycle.

The worrying thing is the fundamental weakness in the league which is the underperformance of the Welsh teams, who really seem to lack an identity or tradition. Sure it's explainable for the merged teams (Ospreys & Dragons), but Cardiff and Scarlets are also disappointing. Their attendances are less than half those of Leinster and Munster and playing in half empty stadiums is not the sign of a successful brand. The Scots and Italians are too small and with attendances of 2,000 - 4,000 just can't compete with huge fan bases of Leinster and Munster.

I suspect the long term trend will be a European league, probably a merged Magners and Premiership, if that will produce more money for the big clubs from Sky or whoever. Munster & Leinster with the big English clubs and a couple of Welsh clubs, if they get their act together, would likely lead to increased interest so increased TV deals, so increased revenue. I guess the weaker sides like the Scots, Italians, and northern English clubs would be consigned to a second division. I'm not saying that would be a good thing, I'm just saying there's a good chance it will happen if that's where the money is.

I love the Magners and think it's great for Irish rugby, but for the future of the league we need more teams to be competitive.

phog

I think I touched on this in the Leinster way thread but unless the Scottish, Welsh and to a lesser degree the Italian pull up their socks then the ML will rapidly fall into a decline that will hurt the Irish provinces and the national squad.

The league is probably still searching for a new sponsor to replace Magners and to this end CL needs the league to be seen as a decent product by the participating teams and their fans. I'd guess they'd love to see a full Aviva Stadium for the grand final this year, it would help their cause in promoting the league.

yimrsg

It's a double-edged sword, there are teams in top 14, super 15 and the aviva prem just there to make up the numbers, they might eventually come good but it's probably 5-10 years of careful planning down the line but there is a drop in overall quality in the league. It takes time for new teams to reach a level of competitiveness when there is change in cloistered leagues so disparitys will obviously occur. I'd imagine the tri quadnations will also take time to bed in when Argentina join in, as I'd imagine it will be a steep learning curve for all. It's a long term benefit for being more inclusive but teams won't be instantly competitive.

From an Irish perspective, it's important for to lay yearly goals so that stagnation doesn't creep in and advancements are made. We all know the ML isn't the most competitive league since we've essentially started from scratch with 2 welsh regions and 2 italian teams. Whilst Leinster are doing well in ML & HC, Munster are on a downward trajectory despite topping the ML, Ulster have been performing above expectations in the ML but still lack in one or two areas before they're near the top table of europe. Connacht have a very high turnover of players year on year.

If we were to list the top tier club teams in Europe there will be more from the top 14 and the aviva prem than in the ML.

Toulouse
Leinster
Clermont
Saracens
Toulon
Racing Metro
Northampton

Then in the second tier there are teams along the lines of:

Perpingnan
Gloucester
Biarritz
Ulster
Munster
London Irish
Harlequins
Ospreys

Ultimately I'm delighted there are so many teams near the top in the ML from our fair isle but the greater test is when we play teams outside the ML in the HC or even in the Amlin. However it doesn't bode well when the Magner League leader is beaten at home by a mid table team from the AP and is pushed all the way by a mediocre top 14 side. The sooner there are other standard bearers outside of Leinster making a mark in the HC the better the league will be.

overshoot

jolley123 wrote: »

I think they should revamp the club system in Wales and make 1 or 2 more clubs in scotland. Then have a Division 2 like the championship.

Having clubs like Cardiff and Edinburgh is like having a club called Limerick and then expecting people from Cork and Kerry to support it.

scotland had the borders until a few year ago though and it just didnt work so i cant see a third side anytime soon.

im not sure welsh rugby is that far behind, their teams are a bit inconsistant but opsreys, blues really arent too far off. they will be though if they continue to lose players.

random thought-as someone said ospreys doesnt work to well with neath and swansea, i wonder would it be possible to break the teams up going back to traditional boundaries, have 4 welsh ml teams and a welsh league beneath it with the lowest in the ml having a playoff with top league team. it might allow clubs to draw fans better but a season out of the ml would probably be fatal and they could probably never offer more than a 1 year contract. plus this traditional fan base could be lost at this stage... ignore my thought....
would there be a population/demand for a team in the north? one less in the south maybe?

edit-had attached a image but it didnt load, showed all welsh teams are on the south coast and based really close together.
ps yimrsg you forgot leicster tigers who will walk into any potenital top european tier, id have blues in tier 2 and swap toulon down for someone (i dont think they are that good yet) otherwise the order is hard to argue with

CouchSmart

I reckon one of the biggest down points of the Magners is the lack of consequence. Year after year Scottish teams and now Italian teams as well as Connacht and Dragons have been at the foot of the table with nothing to play for but pride after the first 8 or 9 rounds. Relegation and proper qualification for HEC would improve it but alas neither can/will happen.

errlloyd

I have a feeling in 3 years time Trevisio will be one of the toughest places to win on the road. They've taken some big scalps and that will continue. I think Edinburgh need to get the **** out of Murray Field. I wouldn't want to watch games in that atmosphere.

Does anyone else think we need a domestic cup again? I know we already had one, but most of the less good teams have nothing to play for all season. A cup comp starting after the Amlin and Heineken group stages are done, not included anyone who made it to the quarters in Europe maybe?

CatFromHue

season....teams....winner....runner ups
2001–02 15 Leinster Munster
2002–03 16 Munster Neath
2003–04 12 Llanelli Scarlets Ulster
2004–05 11 Ospreys Munster
2005–06 11 Ulster Leinster
2006–07 11 Ospreys Cardiff Blues
2007–08 10 Leinster Cardiff Blues
2008–09 10 Munster Edinburgh
2009–10 10 Ospreys Leinster

what is interesting about this season is that the teams who made the play offs make up 4 of the 5 teams that have won the tournament. there will be no new winner of the league this year.

when you look at the stats like the above the irish have always been ahead in the league. there is only one season in the history of the comp where an irish team hasnt been in top 2, 06/07.

the scots had been edging up the table for the last number of years so hopefully this season is just a burp.

the italian teams were always going to finish bottom. in fairness to treviso though they won 9 games, thats 2 more than connacht. aironi is a brand new team so again its not too surprising they finished bottom.

what to do about the welsh though?

Jemo

They've taken steps to improve it in fairness. Treviso was an excellent addition and will go from strength to strength. They're rebranding the league soon and looking for a bigger sponsor so that should help. Add to that the fact that a lot more people have access to the games due to Rte, BBC, S4C, TG4 showing games and it should have a knock on effect on attendances gradually.

Its worrying that we are dominating, but its actually good in development terms. Its safer to blood young players and then they can make the step up to HEC level. So long as we prioritize the HEC I think we'll do ok. Irish sides generally stand up to the test at European level, in particular Leinster and Munster. It must be said though that Ulster are on the up and should help improve the standard too.

Moving players to Connacht is necessary for improvement too I think. We can compete easily in the Magners without say 2-3 good second string players from the top provinces who would move to Connacht and add another strong team to our league. Its unlikely to happen though, as Connacht will always be viewed as the 'other' province where international recognition and top level coaching is less favourable.

buck65

yimrsg wrote: »

If we were to list the top tier club teams in Europe there will be more from the top 14 and the aviva prem than in the ML.

Toulouse
Leinster
Clermont
Saracens
Toulon
Racing Metro
Northampton

Then in the second tier there are teams along the lines of:

Perpingnan
Gloucester
Biarritz
Ulster
Munster
London Irish
Harlequins
Ospreys

Ultimately I'm delighted there are so many teams near the top in the ML from our fair isle but the greater test is when we play teams outside the ML in the HC or even in the Amlin. However it doesn't bode well when the Magner League leader is beaten at home by a mid table team from the AP and is pushed all the way by a mediocre top 14 side. The sooner there are other standard bearers outside of Leinster making a mark in the HC the better the league will be.

Munster's problems have been well documented this season but your post is an insult to Munster and is just point scoring for the sake of it.

durkadurka

Jesus munster fail in the HEC for the first time ever basically and this kind of thing is being said. Unbelievable .

yimrsg

buck65 wrote: »

Munster's problems have been well documented this season but your post is an insult to Munster and is just point scoring for the sake of it.

Brive are 3rd bottom in the top 14, Harlequins 7th in the aviva premiership. It's a cruel look at the state of the league as a whole (I include Leinster here) not a pop at Munster. If they can finish top in the playoffs yet perform like they did in the HC and then the ACC against that standard of opponent then it's fair criticism to make of the league.

The same holds true for the Ospreys and the Blues, who never have fulfilled their potential and instead have regressed in recent years. If we have a weaker competition than the AP or T14 then it's all the more harder for ML teams to up the intensity to match teams from those competitions when they meet in the HC or ACC.

I've posted my opinions on Munster in the past and I've never went for cheap shots on them. If you "bolded" the line just before that rather than get hung up on a percieved cheap shot at Munster you might have taken the comment as it was intended.

Ultimately I'm delighted there are so many teams near the top in the ML from our fair isle but the greater test is when we play teams outside the ML in the HC or even in the Amlin. However it doesn't bode well when the Magner League leader is beaten at home by a mid table team from the AP and is pushed all the way by a mediocre top 14 side. The sooner there are other standard bearers outside of Leinster making a mark in the HC the better the league will be.

Aidric

buck65 wrote: »

Munster's problems have been well documented this season but your post is an insult to Munster and is just point scoring for the sake of it.

Fully agree. The post hardly warranted a response.

The most successful club side in European rugby along with Toulouse and they are deemed a second tier side. You have to laugh.

Legion2008

Ah cmon ... can we not have a thread that doesn't decend into Munster/Leinster bashing ....

Unexpected results happen .... that's why the games are played and not just decided upon beforehand. What does it say about the French Top 14 that Biarittz was beaten by the bottom ranked team in the Magners. Munster have had a bad european season - yes ... but are they in terminal decline - no

yimrsg

Love the hyperbole.

"Doesn't bode well" and "on a downward trajectory" is taken as bashing and insulting Munster.

I said much of the same in this thread and not a jot was said then.

Any team in France can beat any other team depending on factors like: are they bringing their second string/resting their firsts, have they got a HC match the next/last week, is there in a French Camp depriving them key players, are they targeting the match as a win or just going there with the intention of denying the team a winning bonus point or coming away with a losing bonus point, etc.

To say a team like Clermont get's "spent" in less than the course season is ridiculous. To say that the team that won the top 14 last year is spent and was runners up for the 3 previous years beggars belief.

Any team's demise from lofty hights is gradual with results and performances dropping slowly. Munster have been on a slow decline with far too many players picked on reputation/central contracts dictating who get's gametime. Injuries to players have taken the toll but there seems to me a far greater resistance to blood or give game time to new players in Munster than in the other provinces.

McGahan hasn't handled infusing Munster with younger players, much like his predecessor(s) but the well isn't empty. Nagle was motm against Australia B, there is a few others who could be included. Dave O'Callaghan (I think) had great hands when I saw him in the U20's 6 nations matches.

Look at Spence for Ulster, who was in the same U20's team and see the contrast. Other provinces will have players who might not get the necessary gametime (backrow at leinster, some backs in ulster etc.)to reach their potential and Munster should be aiming to nab these players ahead of other provinces. Other Irish players who went abroad in search of gametime should be looked at, leave no stone unturned and cast a wide net.

Had/if (there is still time) McGahan taken more youngster in there might have been a rejuvination in the squad with the older member's being inspired by competition and the younger players eager to show the more established guys their capabilities.

Now is not the time to throw away all the old heads but to rally together and pass on the collective knowlegde and ethos of what Munster is. Guys like POC, DOC, ROG, Quinlan etc have huge experience which must be passed on either from coaching or playing together, perhaps there is a greater need than ever for this season to become not known as "the one that Munster didn't make the HC quarter finals" but instead became "the one where the new Munster was born on the pitch".

In my opinion, over the course of a season Munster's current playing squad is 2nd tier. I never mentioned theirs (or any other teams) illustrious history. They can compete well to a degree but ultimately their squad of players isn't quite as good as the other teams I've mentioned. Is that bashing, insulting or a realistic appraisal?

I hope this post pre-empts any backlash from Perpingnan, Gloucester, Biarritz, Ulster, London Irish, Harlequins or Ospreys fans wishing to vilify me further.

irishbucsfan

Aidric wrote: »

Fully agree. The post hardly warranted a response.

The most successful club side in European rugby along with Toulouse and they are deemed a second tier side. You have to laugh.

Aging team who were knocked out of European competition by a poor Premiership team at home after not making it out of a weak group in the Heineken Cup.

In terms of history and achievments, Munster are tier-1, in terms of their current squad they are tier-2. I think it's very clear that that is what the post meant.


It wasn't a dig at Munster at all. He's saying that it shows the weakness of the ML currently that the team in first place are not performing at the highest level (European competition) and apart from Leinster no team has really impressed at that level this year (you could argue Ulster). That is the truth.

freyners

these things are cyclical in the extreme.who's to say that the scots wont be dominating in 10 years time...we're going through development patch (for most) at the moment that hopefully will lead to a permanently stronger league
The addition of treviso is a huge plus for the league..my tip for dark horses for top 4 in 4/5 years, as soon as they get away form that is
The welsh teams are having a bad time of it but are always threats and we will see them return to form soon..ospreys are in trouble with losing players but the blues and Llanelli are strong teams and just missed out on qualification..dragons are sticky away too.
edinburgh need to get the fck out of murrayfield asap and use it for big games only like leinster do with the RDS. no atmosphere for home games is a huge loss of advantage. Its also another one of the teams that has lost its way over the last 2 years but i reckon can return stronger.
glasgow need to develop a core set of young players over the next 4/5 years and move up the table, until then they need a couple of imports after the WC
Connacht needs to be able to keep its quality players before we can see substantial progress on the progress we have made this season..also we need to start closing out games..if we had one just 3 of the games we got losing bps in we could have finished 7th.
Aironi are hard to figure.they pull out one or two big performances (biarritz) but often dont challenge..still a couple of years in the league should see them improve

Anyways to summarise, no the league is not in trouble..there are always going to be teams who always seem to do well in every league but i think the ML in a big stage of development at the moment that should see dividends by 2013. With the WC this summer we could see a whole host of SH players coming to the league which will up the standard
anyways while leinster and munster have always challenged..one swallow doesnt make a summer for ulster who need to keep their form after the WC. Irish rugby is definately on the up (best year for all Irish provinces in a long time league wise) but that doesnt mean the other unions are in terminal decline

Podge_irl

Plenty of teams have led the English Premiership while performing quite poorly in Europe.

BoarHunter

Aidric wrote: »

Fully agree. The post hardly warranted a response.

The most successful club side in European rugby along with Toulouse and they are deemed a second tier side. You have to laugh.

In think it's Leicester Tigers you are talking about

profitius

In terms of first 15 you could argue that Munster are tier 2 at the moment. In terms of squad size, sponsorship, attendances, merchandise sold they're tier 1.

CatFromHue

just had a look on wikipedia since the year 2000 only leicester, wasps and sale have won the english league. in the same period in the top 14 the teams that have won it are toulouse, stade francais, biarittz and perpignan and clermont in the last 2 seasons.

so thats 3 teams have won the english league in the last decade and 5 teams have won the top 14. that doesnt compare too badly with the magners that has had 5 teams.

in the same period we've won 3 heineken cups which is the same as the top 14 and the english winning 4, 5 if you include northampton in 2001.

we would of course like the welsh teams to be more competitive but our stats for the league arent too bad.

Chucky the tree

Toulon, London Irish and Ospreys is a weak group now?

jacothelad

yimrsg wrote: »

It's a double-edged sword, there are teams in top 14, super 15 and the aviva prem just there to make up the numbers, they might eventually come good but it's probably 5-10 years of careful planning down the line but there is a drop in overall quality in the league. It takes time for new teams to reach a level of competitiveness when there is change in cloistered leagues so disparitys will obviously occur. I'd imagine the tri quadnations will also take time to bed in when Argentina join in, as I'd imagine it will be a steep learning curve for all. It's a long term benefit for being more inclusive but teams won't be instantly competitive.

From an Irish perspective, it's important for to lay yearly goals so that stagnation doesn't creep in and advancements are made. We all know the ML isn't the most competitive league since we've essentially started from scratch with 2 welsh regions and 2 italian teams. Whilst Leinster are doing well in ML & HC, Munster are on a downward trajectory despite topping the ML, Ulster have been performing above expectations in the ML but still lack in one or two areas before they're near the top table of europe. Connacht have a very high turnover of players year on year.

If we were to list the top tier club teams in Europe there will be more from the top 14 and the aviva prem than in the ML.

Toulouse
Leinster
Clermont
Saracens
Toulon
Racing Metro
Northampton

Then in the second tier there are teams along the lines of:

Perpingnan
Gloucester
Biarritz
Ulster
Munster
London Irish
Harlequins
Ospreys

Ultimately I'm delighted there are so many teams near the top in the ML from our fair isle but the greater test is when we play teams outside the ML in the HC or even in the Amlin. However it doesn't bode well when the Magner League leader is beaten at home by a mid table team from the AP and is pushed all the way by a mediocre top 14 side. The sooner there are other standard bearers outside of Leinster making a mark in the HC the better the league will be.

While I don't disagree with most of what you say, Munster have clearly been the standard bearers in the Heineken Cup for Ireland, not Leinster. One bad year with an injury deprived and under-strength side isn't cause to run for cover. It also doesn't expunge their fantastic performances. Every team needs to rebuild from time to time otherwise they would just give sides like Leicester and Toulouse the prizes at the start of the season and we can all go home and take up knitting. Munster didn't play well but still had 2 or 3 tries disallowed and butchered at least two other clear opportunities to score v. 'Quins. Without being forced to use the dead wood of Buckley and Hayes next season, they will not lose games like the one away to the Ospreys.

Why also have you got Toulon in the top tier? They aren't even going to be in the ERC next year. Clean budgie smugglers for Stuart Barnes and the Sky presenters without St. Jonny to flog over. They can leave the kleenex at home.

Podge_irl

jacothelad wrote: »

Without being forced to use the dead wood of Buckley and Hayes next season, they will not lose games like the one away to the Ospreys.

The "dead wood" of Buckley and Hayes were used because they were the best available. Them disappearing doesn't suddenly mean Munster's problem's will be fixed. Especially not if BJ spends as much time on the sidelines as he has done for Ulster.

jacothelad

Podge_irl wrote: »

The "dead wood" of Buckley and Hayes were used because they were the best available. Them disappearing doesn't suddenly mean Munster's problem's will be fixed. Especially not if BJ spends as much time on the sidelines as he has done for Ulster.

If they truly are / were then Kidney, McGahan etc seem to know nothing about front row play. Hayes was good enough once upon a time. Buckley has never been. Selecting a player because he looks like a prop isn't a good idea. There are better props at Munster, available to bring in or even in the AIL. Hayes and Buckley have been hung around Munster's collective neck this season like the Albatross in the Ancient Mariner. They have central contracts. They must play.

The good news about Botha's injuries is that they were all due to accidental impacts, not joint problems. The current one was caused by an Ulster player being thrown heavily against his knee when the game had stopped play. With him there and fit you'll see a hugely increased value in scrummaging. Instead of costing Munster games it might actually earn them points. If Munster still need more tight heads - and who doesn't? - they could look at John Andress. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyoAHjn1Jfo&feature=youtu.be

ambid

Urgh... excellent thread descending into tedious "Munster are crap" nonsense. I'm out!

Podge_irl

CatFromHue wrote: »

just had a look on wikipedia since the year 2000 only leicester, wasps and sale have won the english league. in the same period in the top 14 the teams that have won it are toulouse, stade francais, biarittz and perpignan and clermont in the last 2 seasons.

so thats 3 teams have won the english league in the last decade and 5 teams have won the top 14. that doesnt compare too badly with the magners that has had 5 teams.

in the same period we've won 3 heineken cups which is the same as the top 14 and the english winning 4, 5 if you include northampton in 2001.

we would of course like the welsh teams to be more competitive but our stats for the league arent too bad.

Europe and league doubles haven't exactly been regular occurences either, so I'm not sure why Munster topping the ML while not having a stellar European run is such a disaster (it wasn't even a bad run, just poor by their standards).

The Welsh looked to be on the right track a couple seasons ago when the Blues won the Amlin and then made the HEC semis. They've really fallen away again though.

jacothelad

Podge_irl wrote: »

Europe and league doubles haven't exactly been regular occurences either, so I'm not sure why Munster topping the ML while not having a stellar European run is such a disaster (it wasn't even a bad run, just poor by their standards).

The Welsh looked to be on the right track a couple seasons ago when the Blues won the Amlin and then made the HEC semis. They've really fallen away again though.

People denigrate Munster this season and I think it's nonsense. But for two poor games against (1) the Osprey's and (2) 'Quins, they have carried all before them and that is with major players missing through injury, international games and even suspensions. It's a bump on the road. They can still win the league ( they have already in the traditional sense). They'll have a better squad next season injuries and RWC notwithstanding..

rosskind

The Italians were never going to challenge, but given a few years, if they are able to keep their best players in Italy instead of moving abroad, then they could be a force and nobody will enjoy going there, as has happened with the national team.

Obviously the Welsh teams haven't had the best of years but it might just have been a blip. Although there are a lot of players heading to France, so I don't know really know the teams well enough to know how they'll cope.

sock puppet

Podge_irl wrote: »

Europe and league doubles haven't exactly been regular occurences either, so I'm not sure why Munster topping the ML while not having a stellar European run is such a disaster (it wasn't even a bad run, just poor by their standards).

The Welsh looked to be on the right track a couple seasons ago when the Blues won the Amlin and then made the HEC semis. They've really fallen away again though.

The Blues made the HEC semis before they won the Amlin. In retrospect that was probably when they were at their peak. Some players aren't what they were and they've lost others.

profitius

rosskind wrote: »

The Italians were never going to challenge, but given a few years, if they are able to keep their best players in Italy instead of moving abroad, then they could be a force and nobody will enjoy going there, as has happened with the national team.

Obviously the Welsh teams haven't had the best of years but it might just have been a blip. Although there are a lot of players heading to France, so I don't know really know the teams well enough to know how they'll cope.

They'll get more competitive. I think Aironi are already after signing some new players.

Last season they had to assemble their squads quickly and they didn't know much about the ML but they'll have learned alot and that'll make them stronger.

With a few decent signings Aironi could win loads more games next season. They won't be miles adrift of the second from bottom team.

The real damage being done to the ML as a whole is Scottish rugby going frombad to worse. They need more money to get competitive so the fans will come back but its not happening.

yimrsg

jacothelad wrote: »

While I don't disagree with most of what you say, Munster have clearly been the standard bearers in the Heineken Cup for Ireland, not Leinster. One bad year with an injury deprived and under-strength side isn't cause to run for cover. It also doesn't expunge their fantastic performances. Every team needs to rebuild from time to time otherwise they would just give sides like Leicester and Toulouse the prizes at the start of the season and we can all go home and take up knitting. Munster didn't play well but still had 2 or 3 tries disallowed and butchered at least two other clear opportunities to score v. 'Quins. Without being forced to use the dead wood of Buckley and Hayes next season, they will not lose games like the one away to the Ospreys.

Why also have you got Toulon in the top tier? They aren't even going to be in the ERC next year. Clean budgie smugglers for Stuart Barnes and the Sky presenters without St. Jonny to flog over. They can leave the kleenex at home.

I had a long reply but my pc crashed and I couldn't be bothered doing it all again so apologies if it's curt or misses a point.

With regard to Toulon, they've a sugar daddy buying up anyone and everyone, he get's it wrong (Henson, Hayman) but he's got Giteau & Bakkies Botha coming after the world cup plus in the past he's signed the likes of SBW, Van Niekerk, Smith & Umaga so even if it's a bad model in how to run a club, it does boost player quality. They can throw money at players and don't have to worry about player management schemes or NIQ like Munster do. It puts them above Munster for me, (even though I'm delighted they fell flat on their face this year) it's not a level playing field but that's the way it is. Think of it as Liverpool and Man City, one team has all the heritage the other team has bought it's way to the top table.

Munster lost away to London Irish & Ospreys in their HC group, I'd have fancied Munster to win one or both of those matches. Ok so it's possible they had off days for both of them matches, but then there is the Harlequins match at home which Munster were heavy favourites. That's 3 matches this season I would have fancied Munster to win 2/3 and at least 1/3. In past seasons Munster would have done just that. The simple reality is in the last 3 HCs Leinster have surpassed Munster. Leinster: 2 finals & a semi final
Munster: 2 semi finals and 2nd place in the group stage.

I will admit that had they gotten an Italian team in their group then I'm sure they would have qualified from their group like Leicester & Ulster this year and Ospreys & Northampton the year before. But that's all what ifs.

So going back to Munster being top of the ML you can look at it in two ways;
1) Munster have performed exceptionally well and have managed to rise above all others in their domestic league.
2) That the standard of competition in the ML is a false barometer of where a team actually is in the HC.

I reckon the reason why Leinster have a crucial advantage over all others in the ML in that Joel Schmidt is coming from a more competitive and intensive league, expecting the same standards from his current charges. Other teams, coaches, players etc. could have let their standards slip unknowingly and this complacency only appears in the must win games of the HC. Likewise you could raise the point that McGahan is a shrewd operator in the ML knowing exactly what is needed to secure the home semi final and topping the table so comfortably. It's probably a combination of the two things holding true.

I hope that once the Italian teams start to gain a foothold and beat some of the Welsh & Scottish that they realise their pride is on the line and their standards have fallen and are stirred into action. Either by trying new schemes to invigorate the teams (cheap tickets for a full house) or a look at attracting better quality players & coaches and prune out the deadwood, Wales produces an never ending supply of young backs whilst Scotland has a knack for making forwards. The sooner the newer teams and regions find their feet the better it is for all ML teams. Irish teams are the most settled and assured in the ML and as a consequence have dominated.

Finally a rebuke,

I really don't feel like I attacked Munster in any of my posts meerly commenting on the overall quality of the league and if people get so defensive over one person's appraisal on the standard of a league and take it as a slight to Munster then that's no fault of mine. People are commenting on the standard of the English Premiership being poor this year yet you don't see Man Utd fans up in arms. All any team can do at the end of the day is beat the opposition. It's up to the other teams to match and exceed them which they didn't.

LostPassword

yimrsg wrote: »

Brive are 3rd bottom in the top 14, Harlequins 7th in the aviva premiership. It's a cruel look at the state of the league as a whole (I include Leinster here) not a pop at Munster. If they can finish top in the playoffs yet perform like they did in the HC and then the ACC against that standard of opponent then it's fair criticism to make of the league.

Barcelona lost to Hercules, the bottom team in la liga, who will be relegated and will probably not do too well next year in the second division. This proves that Barcelona are a mediocre, second tier European side. Kindergarten logic.

Munster have the highest win-loss ratio of any european team this year. They had a better head-to-head ratio against all the teams that they played against in the HEC pool, including Toulon who you put in the top tier for some bizzare reason. Toulon were simply lucky that their away game against LI coincided with LI's mid-season collapse. And if you think Munster were poor against Harlequins, did you see how abject Toulon were against Montpellier? And as for Racing Metro and Saracens - hammered home and away by Leinster. None of the three have anything like the recent history of Munster and nobody with a brain would rank them anywhere but behind our country cousins (I'm a Leinster fan btw).

Sure, Munster have had a tough season but I can't imagine how anybody with a clue could put them anywhere but inside the top 5 or 6 teams in Europe. Even the best teams that have ever existed (c.f. Barcelona FC) sometimes have rubbish games. Only idiots think that this makes them crap teams.

To me, Munster's results this season bode well for them for the coming years - they are a team in transition and their first XV is thus a little less formidable than they have been in past years, but their extraordinary record in the ML this year shows that they have great strength in depth and a whole heap of quality youngsters who are in position to step up to the mark over the next couple of seasons - while teams like Toulon and Racing will probably fade away as their sugar-dadies get bored.

yimrsg

LostPassword wrote: »

Barcelona lost to Hercules, the bottom team in la liga, who will be relegated and will probably not do too well next year in the second division. This proves that Barcelona are a mediocre, second tier European side. Kindergarten logic.

The comparison doesn't hold true. Rugby doesn't equal football. Yellow cards aren't yellow cards and penalties do not equal penalties.

Barcelona had 3:1 possession versus Hercules, if that happens in rugby then the defending team will eventually 1) infringe, ceeding possession, territory, possibly points and be yellow carded 2) tire more rapidly and 3) have less opportunity to score. South Africa briefly played in a manner unreliant on possession but that strategy wouldn't work now.
Barcelona had 9/17 shots on target to Hercules 8/9. In football a well drilled side with good organisation can withstand a far better collective. That doesn't happen with rugby since every missed tackle in football might have a covering player.

Munster have the highest win-loss ratio of any european team this year. They had a better head-to-head ratio against all the teams that they played against in the HEC pool, including Toulon who you put in the top tier for some bizzare reason.

Already explained my reasoning to my opinion on Toulon's stature.

Toulon were simply lucky that their away game against LI coincided with LI's mid-season collapse. And if you think Munster were poor against Harlequins, did you see how abject Toulon were against Montpellier? And as for Racing Metro and Saracens - hammered home and away by Leinster. None of the three have anything like the recent history of Munster and nobody with a brain would rank them anywhere but behind our country cousins (I'm a Leinster fan btw).

Leinster beat Saracens by 2 points away, has the definition of hammering changed? Metro were long out of the competition by the time they hosted Leinster in the final game and didn't put out near their top team. For the record Saracens won 18/22 in their league and Munster won 19/22.

London Irish lost 10 matches in a row, are you saying Toulon were lucky that their win coincided with the slump or Munster unlucky not to play them in their slump? Northampton had a slump also, were Ulster unlucky not to play them in their slump also? Can't just every team use this excuse.

Brendan Venter: we were unlucky today
Interviewer: why's that?
BV: if we played them last week where they lost or any other week where they will lose we would have won
I: . . . eh ok, thanks Brendan

This metaphysical musing has me flumuxed.

Recent competitive form is disregarded as the thread is questioning whether the present Irish dominance is a good or bad thing, recent form is paramount. Should the recent form of Sale or Wasps be ignored simply because they've won past trophies and are exempt?

Sure, Munster have had a tough season but I can't imagine how anybody with a clue could put them anywhere but inside the top 5 or 6 teams in Europe. Even the best teams that have ever existed (c.f. Barcelona FC) sometimes have rubbish games. Only idiots think that this makes them crap teams.

You gave me one non knock out match where Barcelona failed to live up to their standards. They weren't knocked out of any competition.

I mentioned 3 key games (Ospreys away & LI away plus Harlequins at home) of which their failure to win ultimately led to Munster's elimination from first the HC and then the ACC. Brive pushed Munster all the way and put 37 points past them. You have to go back a long time before any team managed to do that to them.

The top 6 teams is entirely subjective, ultimately we haven't set what the criteria under consideration are. We may talking the same language but not understand each other.

To me, Munster's results this season bode well for them for the coming years - they are a team in transition and their first XV is thus a little less formidable than they have been in past years, but their extraordinary record in the ML this year shows that they have great strength in depth and a whole heap of quality youngsters who are in position to step up to the mark over the next couple of seasons - while teams like Toulon and Racing will probably fade away as their sugar-dadies get bored.

Like how great a youngster might become in time we can only speculate on the owner's whims. I haven't doubted Munster's ability merely query whether the good Irish performances in the ML equates to a good future for Irish rugby. Performance in the WC/6N/HC is a far better reckoner of the health of Irish rugby than the ML will ever be.

Finally if you are going to reply to me, please leave out statements like the ones bolded and please don't use football analogies, I fear I may have inadvertently dragged this off topic enough.

jolley123

I may not know what this argument is about as I'm not willing to go back and check, so I don't know if I agree with you yimrsg. But that is certainly a good post and I applaud you.

Ciaran-Irl

yimrsg wrote: »

It's a double-edged sword, there are teams in top 14, super 15 and the aviva prem just there to make up the numbers, they might eventually come good but it's probably 5-10 years of careful planning down the line but there is a drop in overall quality in the league. It takes time for new teams to reach a level of competitiveness when there is change in cloistered leagues so disparitys will obviously occur. I'd imagine the tri quadnations will also take time to bed in when Argentina join in, as I'd imagine it will be a steep learning curve for all. It's a long term benefit for being more inclusive but teams won't be instantly competitive.

From an Irish perspective, it's important for to lay yearly goals so that stagnation doesn't creep in and advancements are made. We all know the ML isn't the most competitive league since we've essentially started from scratch with 2 welsh regions and 2 italian teams. Whilst Leinster are doing well in ML & HC, Munster are on a downward trajectory despite topping the ML, Ulster have been performing above expectations in the ML but still lack in one or two areas before they're near the top table of europe. Connacht have a very high turnover of players year on year.

If we were to list the top tier club teams in Europe there will be more from the top 14 and the aviva prem than in the ML.

Toulouse
Leinster
Clermont
Saracens
Toulon
Racing Metro
Northampton

Then in the second tier there are teams along the lines of:

Perpingnan
Gloucester
Biarritz
Ulster
Munster
London Irish
Harlequins
Ospreys

Ultimately I'm delighted there are so many teams near the top in the ML from our fair isle but the greater test is when we play teams outside the ML in the HC or even in the Amlin. However it doesn't bode well when the Magner League leader is beaten at home by a mid table team from the AP and is pushed all the way by a mediocre top 14 side. The sooner there are other standard bearers outside of Leinster making a mark in the HC the better the league will be.

Your list is incredibly wrong. You can't possibly think that Saracens are better than Munster, can you? One bad year for Munster and suddenly they are below Saracens, who have never accomplished anything in the HEC in their entire history? On what basis? Munster made the semi finals of the HEC for the two previous years. Leicester didn't make your list, but Toulon did, despite not making the top 6 of the Top 14?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Your list is incredibly wrong. You can't possibly think that Saracens are better than Munster, can you? One bad year for Munster and suddenly they are below Saracens, who have never accomplished anything in the HEC in their entire history? On what basis? Munster made the semi finals of the HEC for the two previous years. Leicester didn't make your list, but Toulon did, despite not making the top 6 of the Top 14?

I think he just took the top three in the AP table, and the top three of the Top 14 table and added in Leinster since they are in the HEC final and Toulon since the owner will keep throwing in money till they get it right and decided right thats the first tier sorted

Sangre

Can't say I agree with many of your conclusions yimrsg but I must say they are well argued.

yimrsg

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Your list is incredibly wrong. You can't possibly think that Saracens are better than Munster, can you? One bad year for Munster and suddenly they are below Saracens, who have never accomplished anything in the HEC in their entire history? On what basis? Munster made the semi finals of the HEC for the two previous years. Leicester didn't make your list, but Toulon did, despite not making the top 6 of the Top 14?

I didn't list why I held the opinion why Munster were tier two in my eye and not tier one when I listed those teams.

As I tiredly excused myself before:

The top 6 teams is entirely subjective, ultimately we haven't set what the criteria under consideration are. We may [be] talking the same language but not understand each other.

My position was looking at which teams in Europe were most likely to win 4 from 6 in the HC group stages. Winning their 3 home games and picking up that crucial away win. This again is messy territory.

To win those sort you need more than a monster pack, you need them to outmuscle and outwork your opponents in their own backyard. You need a good scrum and lineout. Very few teams are favourites away from home.

No team from Wales, Scotland or Italy have that. Some players might be that good, but the whole pack plus replacements aren't. On the road, French teams become uninterested, they send a second choice, the second choice know they're that and the don't the home team ups their game against the big visiting team and turns them over. This season Castres did this constantly and Biarritz got turned over by Aironi, Toulon got spanked by Munster, Wasps beat Toulose. Metro didn't push themselves despite winning away.

A possible arguement for some French teams (Toulon, Castre & Metro) is that since they're ranked so lowly by the ERC and they're considered the same as Aironi and Dragons and that because of the unfavourable system that they're better off focusing in another competition, rather than annually trying to navigate groups of death. This is similar to the English teams, it's very difficult to navigate your squad through 4, 5 or 6 competitions. They've got the Aviva Premiership, the LV cup, the 6N's, the HC and the ACC and this year the WC. The games might not be all the same intensity but it drains a team resources.

Metro & Saracens were listed as top tier teams both could have won games home and away (as Metro did in the head to head against Saracens). Metro were leading at half time away to Clermont, whilst Leinster were drawing. Ultimately there's little between the teams so that home advantage counts and the away side comes up short. Every team I considered tier 1 in that list (including Leicester who I forgot) has the pack to win those sort of games away to similar stature teams, whether the team is sent out there to win or just to show up is another thing. The teams I listed as tier 1 are better equiped to win away.

Munster, Ulster and teams of that ilk don't have a physical pack that can do all of the following:

1. outmuscle the opposition pack
2. outwork them
3. steal lineout(s)
4. win opposition scrum(s)
5. know how to win away

They might do some but not all over the course of a match but not wholesale dominance.

In the ML only Leinster can win those sort of games in the HC, Saracens won at Leicester in the AP and won 18 from 22. Leicester are still the dominant force in the AP and roughed up Leinster away. Northampton have won 6/6 in the HC, comfortably getting past Ulster & Perpignan. Clermont and Toulouse are likely to win regardless who they play once their bloods up. Metro and Toulon are my two picks as bolters. Both have sugar daddies, who can attract big names without worry of budgets and player management schemes. Both could mount a serious push at both the T14 and HC, Toulon favoured the HC and lost out in the T14 and Metro will look back on the HC cup campaign as an opportunity lost to announce themselves with a bang.

Tomtom364

Just on one side note
From what i can work out. If Leinster win in cardiff then Leinster will be top ranked and munster third with tolouse in between. Surely that bode well for Irish rugby.

Aplogies if this is a lil of topic but I didnt want to create a thread on just on observation.

EDIT: I missed one part of calculation. Post changed accordingly.

komodosp

Hmmm... I hate to think of the league as a qualifier for the European Cup, but that's a big part of it. And the way it works is a bit crap...

Top 3 of 4 Irish teams qualify (i.e. everyone except Connacht)
Top 3 of 4 Welsh teams qualify (i.e. everyone except Dragons)
All the Scottish teams
All the Italian teams

So from that point of view, it takes a bit of the sting out of it. Especially considering the Dragons finished above both Scottish and both Italian teams, yet they won't qualify while the other 4 will! Connacht finished 28 points behind what they needed to qualify, and yet 27 points above Aironi who do qualify!