Good idea for new hurling league format

gertechhaha

with all the giving out about the relegation/promotion in the hurling league,for instance clare are in division 2 for a third year and it does them no good so they want the format changed and the weaker teams in division two such as carlow saying they dont want the format changed as it robs them of their chance of progressing. i came up with this idea that may make everyone happy

there could be a division 1,group A,group B,group C,group D,and in each group there would be 5 teams.with 3 strong counties in each group and 2 weak counties in each group.

then the teams that finish in the top two of each of the 4 groups go into a league cup quarter finals

the teams that finish third and fourth in each of the 4 groups go into a league shield quarter final

and the teams that finish bottom of each group all go into a relegation group which will have just 4 teams in it and they play eachother once each with the top two teams from that group staying in division 1 and the bottom two getting relegated


also each of the losing cup quarter finalists would go into a playoff semi final against eachother.with the winners of the playoff semis qualifying for a 5th/6th palce playoff match and the losers qualifying for a 7th/8th place playoff match.

also the losing semi finalists of the cup would play against eachother for 3rd/4th place

these playoffs would also happen in the shield


this way every county would have the same number of matches in the league each year

Daysha

So you basically want to merge D1 and D2 and put teams like Tipp and Kilkenny in groups with Kerry and Westmeath? No thanks.

The league is absolutely fine as it is. The top of Division 1 was one of the tightest in years while the relegation battle literally went down to the last puck of the game. If Clare want to play in the top-tier they need to prove they're good enough, and the fact they lost twice to Limerick and once to Laois suggests otherwise.

ballykev

Daysha wrote: »

So you basically want to merge D1 and D2 and put teams like Tipp and Kilkenny in groups with Kerry and Westmeath? No thanks.

The league is absolutely fine as it is. The top of Division 1 was one of the tightest in years while the relegation battle literally went down to the last puck of the game. If Clare want to play in the top-tier they need to prove they're good enough, and the fact they lost twice to Limerick and once to Laois suggests otherwise.

+1 Totally agree

eroo

As a Clareman who is quite depressed at the thought of a third year in Div 2..

I think it would be very unfair to change the format again. I want our hurlers to be in Div 1 again, but they have to earn it. I believe they will.

The only change that could be made is to copy the football approach i.e. 2 up, 2 down from each group. Offaly and Wexford would have went down to Div 2, Clare and Limerick went up. Only problem is that finals would be less competitive, and it could turn into an endless yoyo effect with the same 2 up and down each year.

While I agree with your sentiment on Div 1 Daysha, I must disagree with your statement that the League is fine the way it is. Div 1 is fine the way it is. The rest is not. The gap between Div 1&2 is already quite wide, but the gap between Div 1&3 is phenomenal. 2 up 2 down would work well for Div 3&4 at least.

jordainius

Sorry OP, can't agree with any of your system. What your proposing is a system which would produce groups a little something like this;
A; Kilkenny, Wexford, Clare, Down, Kildare.
B; Waterford, Cork, Laois, Westmeath, Meath.
C; Tipp, Dublin, Antrim, Carlow, London.
D; Galway, Offaly, Limerick, Kerry, Derry.

Group A; Kilkenny would probably win, Clare and Wexford game deciding 2nd and 3rd; Down and Kildare would be destroyed by Kilkenny and well beaten by Wexford and Clare.

Group B; Waterford and Cork battling for 1st and 2nd. Laois will do no better than 3rd, Westmeath may take 3rd if they catch Laois on an off day, and Meath would take two big hammerings from Cor/Wat, a big defeat against Laois and a defeat to Westmeath.

Group C; God help London. Tipp and Dublin guaranteed 1st and 2nd, only thing up for decision is in what order. Carlow and Antrim battling for 3rd/4th. London would be absolutely destroyed.

Group D; Galway most likely to win, Limerick and Offaly battling for a quarter final place, while Kerry and Derry would take some heavy beatings.


See the pattern emerging? You're giving the top 4/6 counties 2/3 pointless games that they are virtually guaranteed to win and win very well while you're condemning the bottom 4/6 counties to taking some serious hidings and only playing one (two at a push) game against a team of a similar level.

adrian522

If the above system was in place I'd be giving up my season ticket and probably go to few enough league games.

Also if it was 2 up 2 down Dublin would have been relegated last year, look where they are now.

I think it should stay as it is and let teams earn the right to play in division 1 and not give it to them because they feel a sense of entitlement.

stevemac

I think the divisions are fine as they are. With the only change I'd make being have two promoted instead of one.

I really hate the way some hurling people are trying to protect the bigger counties by devising a league where they'll be safe no matter what basically.

If there was to be a change I'd prefer if it was made into a ten team division one with two up and two down. Be nice to see two bigs realise at the end of the first league that they were being relegated.

Daysha

I think I'd be happy with a promotion/relegation play-off. 2nd last in the upper division plays 2nd best in the lower division in a one-off game in a neutral venue. Let the lower team prove they deserve to get promoted.

flahavaj

The likes of Antrim, Down, Laois, Carlow are far better off in the current format when they get 7 games they have a legit chance of winning/being competitive in in Div 2. That new format means they'd be hammered out the gate in two games by teams far better than them and have competitive games only twice. That won't help them progress at all.

Daysha

Looks like we're getting another revamp once again:

The National Hurling League format is facing another revamp with a two-tier Division 1 in the offing.

The Hurling Development Group is expected to propose the restoration of a 12-team Division 1, which would be divided into two groups of six (Divisions 1A and 1B). The same format applied between 2005 and '08, but this time the counties will be divided on the basis of strength with the stronger teams competing in Division 1A and the weaker teams in 1B.

Based on the final placing in this year's league, Division 1A in 2012 would feature Dublin, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipperary, Galway and Cork, while 1B would consist of Wexford, Offaly, Limerick, Clare, Laois and Antrim. Offaly stand to benefit most from the proposed changes, having been relegated to Division 2 this year, while the knock-on effect would see their neighbours Westmeath restored to Division 2 after they were relegated to Division 3 last spring.

Relegation and promotion will continue to apply with the proposals set to be decided on by Central Council at their meeting next month. This year's Congress voted to reintroduce semi-finals in Division 1 from next year which means four of the six counties in Division 1A of the NHL would enter the knock-out phase.

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=151645

Even though I was completely against changing the league format, this new proposal isn't bad at all. Both divisions would be very competitive, although I can't see Limerick being too happy with the changes given they would've expected to play the Kilkenny's and the Tipp's next year.

Of course there's no prize for guessing what's bad about the idea. 4 teams from a group of 6 progressing to 2 semi-finals is just stupid and needs to be got rid of asap.

premierstone

Both Wexford and Limerick are getting shafted if that proposal is implemented, if you want to do something like that you need to announce it will begin in 2014 and your status, ie 1a, 1b, 2 etc will depend on your league performance in the interim.

Mountainlad

I dunno is that being misreported or what. The semi finals were voted on last year weren't they? And it took two years for them to come in. I think they have to do the same with the changes to the format that they can't come in until the following year. Division 1a would be the most competitive thing I've ever seen if they did this.

Fireball07

The league is a bit harsh on some teams like Clare at the moment but I think it's fair. If Clare/Antrim/Laois are good enough, they'll be promoted. Division 1 is very competitive at the moment and I think it should be kept the same.

I think semi-finals are probably a bad idea because 4 semi-finalists from 8 makes it less worthy. Though it does give teams like Limerick a better shot at league glory. Though you could say it favours the bigger teams too. They could have a poor enough league campaign, make a revival towards the end and then win the semi-final and final.

legendary.xix

Counties working hard on progression are a bit hard done by. It was great for Kerry to get to division 2 and take on Limerick and Clare. The GAA can't ring-fence teams all the time but I accept teams need a decent level of opposition as well.

If 1A and 1B comes in, I'd suggest still run the league over 8 weeks. After the 1A and 1B games are finished they should run quarter-finals and play-offs:

Quarter-finals:
1A 5th/6th v 1B 1st/2nd
Semi-finals
1A 1st/2nd v Quarter-final winners
Final
Semi-final winners (naturally enough!)

1A play-off Round 1
1B 3rd/4th v 1B 5th/6th
1A play-off Round 2
1A 5th/6th v Round 1 winners
1A play-off Round 3
Quarter-final losers v Round 2 winners.

The 4 semi-finalists and two Round 3 play-off winners would compete in 1A the following year.

Relegation Final
Losers of Round 1 play-off, defeated side dropping to Division 2 the following year.

1A and 1B should both have the possibility of winning the Division 1 title. 1B should bring the possibility of relegation to Division 2. The above system would create the possibility of 0 to 4 counties moving between 1A and 1B. It'll definitely give all teams the competitive games they need. This could also be replicated with a Division 2A and 2B based on the same format.

ebbsy

Looks like Wicklow are going to get shafted again, what a disgusting organisation the GAA are.

HURLING DEVELOPMENT MY BUTTOCKS.

Mountainlad

ebbsy wrote: »

Looks like Wicklow are going to get shafted again, what a disgusting organisation the GAA are.

HURLING DEVELOPMENT MY BUTTOCKS.

Did they get promoted from division 3A?

I wouldn't be going mad yet, this is a proposal and plenty of those get thrown out, and I'm sure the likes of Limerick and Wexford along with Wicklow and the like will be opposed.

KevIRL

Leave the league as it is in terms of number of teams in divisions. However now name the top 2 divisions 1A and 1B. 1A is still a higher league, however all teams in 1A and 1B have a shot at winning the overall league.

Top 2 teams in 1A go straight through to semi finals
3rd and 4th in 1A play 1st and 2nd in 1B in the quarter finals to get the other 2 teams who get into the semi finals.

7th and 8th in 1A are relegated to 1B, and the top 2 in 1B are promoted.
Bottom team (or bottom 2) from 1B goes down to division 2, with the top division team (or top 2) getting promoted.

This keeps a strong very competitive top division, which the game needs, and rewards teams who make the effort to consistently stay at the top. However it also gives teams who do drop out of the top flight a chance to play knock out hurling on a decent sod and competitve games. Also much less 'dead rubber' games with lots going down to decision on the last day of the league.

Everyones a winner really. Going back to this season

We'd have had Dublin and KK in the semi final.
Waterford v Clare and Galway v Limerick in the quarter final battling for the other 2 QF spots.

Wexford and Offaly relegated to 1B however knowing that they have a good chance of still getting into league playoff spots next year.

Plus for the Antrim/Laois/Carlow's of the game there is the knowledge that if they can put in a good league campaign and beat one of the bigger teams then they could make the league playoffs too

legendary.xix

KevIRL wrote: »

Leave the league as it is in terms of number of teams in divisions. However now name the top 2 divisions 1A and 1B. 1A is still a higher league, however all teams in 1A and 1B have a shot at winning the overall league.

Top 2 teams in 1A go straight through to semi finals
3rd and 4th in 1A play 1st and 2nd in 1B in the quarter finals to get the other 2 teams who get into the semi finals.

7th and 8th in 1A are relegated to 1B, and the top 2 in 1B are promoted.
Bottom team (or bottom 2) from 1B goes down to division 2, with the top division team (or top 2) getting promoted.

This keeps a strong very competitive top division, which the game needs, and rewards teams who make the effort to consistently stay at the top. However it also gives teams who do drop out of the top flight a chance to play knock out hurling on a decent sod and competitve games. Also much less 'dead rubber' games with lots going down to decision on the last day of the league.

Everyones a winner really. Going back to this season

We'd have had Dublin and KK in the semi final.
Waterford v Clare and Galway v Limerick in the quarter final battling for the other 2 QF spots.

Wexford and Offaly relegated to 1B however knowing that they have a good chance of still getting into league playoff spots next year.

Plus for the Antrim/Laois/Carlow's of the game there is the knowledge that if they can put in a good league campaign and beat one of the bigger teams then they could make the league playoffs too

The format you are looking at is too long. It needs to fit into either an 8 or 9 week period. The set-up I outlined can be run in 8 weeks. 4 teams from 1B could earn promotion to 1A if they were good enough but it could be 0, 1, 2 or 3 at the same time. Divisions of 2A and 2B would be competitive as well. 2A would consist of Carlow, Down, Kerry, Westmeath, Wicklow and Derry.

Mountainlad wrote: »

Did they get promoted from division 3A?

I wouldn't be going mad yet, this is a proposal and plenty of those get thrown out, and I'm sure the likes of Limerick and Wexford along with Wicklow and the like will be opposed.

Limerick will support it. O'Grady has been leading for the division to be revamped with a 1A of the top 6 and 1B of the next 6.

Carthy303

Dont think theres much you can do with the league but the hurling qualifier system is a joke!Waterford get beaten by 21 points in a Munster Final but yet are in an All-Ireland Q/F?Absolute Joke!

Carthy303

Daysha wrote: »

I think I'd be happy with a promotion/relegation play-off. 2nd last in the upper division plays 2nd best in the lower division in a one-off game in a neutral venue. Let the lower team prove they deserve to get promoted.

Donal O Grady suggested something similar and it seems to be the best suggestion.If the team from the lower division cant beat a team at the bottom end of the top division then they dont deserve to be promoted!Works for me!

Fireball07

Carthy303 wrote: »

Dont think theres much you can do with the league but the hurling qualifier system is a joke!Waterford get beaten by 21 points in a Munster Final but yet are in an All-Ireland Q/F?Absolute Joke!

To be fair to them, they had to get there first. And they are the 2nd best team in Munster.

premierstone

Carthy303 wrote: »

Dont think theres much you can do with the league but the hurling qualifier system is a joke!Waterford get beaten by 21 points in a Munster Final but yet are in an All-Ireland Q/F?Absolute Joke!

Yeah your dead right, shur Cork couldnt beat that same Waterford team last year in over 140 mins, and they let them in a QF aswell, huh joke, I remember you were complaining about it then aswell...........oh wait :rolleyes:

legendary.xix

There is a tweak the GAA can do to give the league a bit more relevance as well. For qualifier draws, teams should be seeded top half in one bowl and lower half in the other bowl based on league rankings. It'd give the league an added edge.

Mountainlad

Carthy303 wrote: »

Dont think theres much you can do with the league but the hurling qualifier system is a joke!Waterford get beaten by 21 points in a Munster Final but yet are in an All-Ireland Q/F?Absolute Joke!

Yes you're right. What we should do is have a random draw where anyone plays anyone in the Liam McCarthy and then let the RTE panel nominate the quarter finalists and semi finalists. Jesus...

We had to beat Limerick who are also in the quarter finals. Is that an absolute joke? And don't be suprised if we run Galway very close/beat them.