Owed Money....

Dublin_Gunner

Ok here's a brief synopsis.

Over the past year, I've done a fair amount of design work for a certain company, but am yet to be paid.

Initially, I did a couple of 'favours' but this quickly turned into a lot of work and so we agreed that I would be re-imbursed for it.

The problem is, the MD of the company is my sisters partner - so I basically feel he's just been taking the mick out of me, and completely took advantage of the fact he's my sisters partner.

Now, last November, he wanted me to work on another job, and I was very apprehensive, so he started to throw in the fact that he worked my bill up to around €1600 so far.

I then worked out my bill (using VERY favourable rates) to be €2400~ to which he agreed. (He tends to like to communicate via gmail chat / email / text - so I have all this on record). I then proceeded to send him an invoice for the work (itemised) to which he said would be paid within about a month.

Despite numerous e-mails and texts to him (over the last few months to which he has ignored) I have yet to be remunerated.

Yesterday, I text him asking why he hadn't replied to any of my emails, and he replied asking who I was (had lost my number - yeah right) I replied explaining it was me, and he never replied. I then text him asking if he was going to ignore my texts now? And of course, I've not received a reply.

What am I to do? I'm really annoyed at this point, and tbh could do with the cash.

I'm not looking for legal, but moral advice I suppose.

Half of me wants to just sue him / his company for the money, as its owed to me, I could do with it, and he's being a total dick taking the urine out of me. The other half is saying this may strain relations between myself and my sister.

Rock + hard place comes to mind.

Any ideas oh clever folk of Boards?

little lady

Can you not try to set up a meeting with him, if he won't, why don't you just call over to your sisters house??

If it was intially done as a favour calling over to him to discuss shouldn't be a problem!

Dublin_Gunner

little lady wrote: »

Can you not try to set up a meeting with him, if he won't, why don't you just call over to your sisters house??

If it was intially done as a favour calling over to him to discuss shouldn't be a problem!

We've already had many conversation about it, I wouldn't be getting this annoyed if I though a simple conversation was going to sort it out. He keeps pawning me off saying the company is waiting on the next contract to be paid to pay me, or investors to put money in to pay me etc etc

Filling me full of BS if I'm honest.

Its been going on for a year.

seenitall

I can feel your frustration, OP.

Trying to put myself in your shoes here. I have a brother so I can extrapolate your position on to me, him and his girlfriend. What I would do is talk to my bro, explain the situation and ask him to put the foot down with the g/f on my behalf. But the thing is, my brother (although we have had our vagaries in the past) is a fair man, he would see right away how I had been played and would be mortified on her behalf. He would do something about it and I would see my money at the end of it.

However, if your sister is of the "standing by my man and very sorry about any collateral damage" variety, then, really... I don't think you have many other options then to sue. Which would, I guess be choosing between good family relations and getting your hard-earned cash . It sucks, but I'd sue if I were you, not before giving them both plenty of notice, heads-up and opportunities to work out a rate of payment even.

(TBH, I wouldn't have much time for a sister who would turn a blind eye in your situation anyway. But that's me.)

Best wishes.

IrishEyes19

How close are you with your sister? Would it be possible to talk to her first about it, that way it wont look like you went behind her back first and had a monetary fight with her partner, if she doesnt agree, just explain how this is your trade and that yes you did favours, however that was extended and it was agreed that he would pay up, then produce the written evidence. I wouldnt be so easy on the guy either, he works for a company, and if it were the other way around he would get his money, so you are entitled to the same. but start with your sister first. He has some cheek ignoring you,

Lucyx

Do you think he's just taking advantage of the situation or maybe the company doesn't have the money?

I would go into the place of work and tell him that he owes you that money and he needs to pay otherwise you have to take it further as you would if it was anyone else. Maybe suggest a few monthly payments if money is an issue so at least its better for him from a cash flow point of view and you don't really want the extra expense of getting someone else involved (legally).

I wouldn't worry about the fact that he's your sisters partner. This shouldn't affect your relationship with your sister. This is business and totally separate.
And if she did become p-ed off then she'd be unreasonable about it too.

Tbh I don't think texting is a good idea with stuff like this. I know you've a record of who said what but it just doesn't look professional and maybe thats why this guy isn't taking you seriously.

He has no moral issue with giving you the run around so you shouldn't have any with taking it further. He's big time taking the mickey. Good luck to you

Juicyfruit

I think what you need to do in this case is look at it from a business point of view rather than a family matter.

He is your customer and you are a supplier.

You have provided a service to a company, you have invoiced them and they are obliged to pay the money to you within a month (depening on credit terms etc)

He clearly is taking advantage of you because of who you are and I'm sure if it was any of his other suppliers this would not be the case. And he wouldn't act in such an unprofessional manner towards them.

Firstly, I think you need to let him know you mean business and are not willing to be fobbed off any longer and rather than having to basically beg him for the money tell him that if you have not received it by such and such a time you will have no other option than to take the matter further.

If this was a proper debtor/creditor situation then legal letters would be flying aroung all over the place. Especially as it's been ongoing for a year. You've been civil about it this far and maybe he think's that the longer it goes on the less you'll ask until eventually you won't ask anymore.

Look, it may cause trouble between your family's but I think at this stage there's no other option. You've been patient with him so far and that's gotten you nowhere. You've done nothing wrong in this situation, only helped someone out when they needed it.
The man owes you money for works carried out, talking to him has done nothing for you so far, talking to your sister hasn't either, so I think it's time you got tough.

Hope it all works out for you!

Lucyx

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

He keeps pawning me off saying the company is waiting on the next contract to be paid to pay me, or investors to put money in to pay me etc etc

sorry i didn't see this bit....wow this guy is a wnkr. sorry but he is.

Aishae

ho OP - the sad truth is there are an awful lot of people who will - maybe not conciously at first - take advantage of knowing you in order to pay back nail grindingly slowly (if at all)
i have 2 situations (not in a business setting) - 1 has not and i know will not at this stage pay me a penny. the other owed me a few grand and comes up with every excuse in the book not to pay me. ive gotten most of that 4 grand but its taken a few ridiculous years. its really hard to be take a harder line when friends or family friends are concerned i know.

but this isnt just being owed a few quid by a mate. it was a business thing. you have firmer ground. he seems to be saying to himself 'well i owe such and such to him and also her... i can leave her slide longer as i know her...' which is what happened to me and its not on.

it seems youre gonna have to meet him or call in on him and ask what the story is with what you are owed and explain that unless he starts paying back what is owed youre going to have to take some form of action - just like you would with any other customer - because he's used up all of his good faith at this stage.

unless your sister is a fair type who wont automatically side with the fella or defers to him on all matter. a word with her on whats happening...

Joey the lips

I never mix business with family. You have 3 choices.

1. Simply dont do any more work for him and keep reminding him till your paid for what you done you wont be

2. Send him a solicitors letter.

3. Stand outside his office with a board saying John x owes me 2k and will not pay.

It will cost him money to get a solicitor to stop the 3rd one and all you are argueing is your rights

LegacyUser

Its all well and good to say you could sue (and if i were you id be P.O too) but before going down the sue route, how confident are you about this agreement? Have you a signed engagement letter or a valid contract?The cost of getting a solicitor could wipe out your fee so id look into how valid your claim is first.


Also does your sister know about the outstanding cash? Dont presume she does if your so unsure.

Dublin_Gunner

Thanks for everyones replies - I'm still in a muddle over what to do though!

Everyone has valid points - though I don;t see myself standing outside his office - I have a job to go to!

I'm not sure if my sis knoes anything about it, and in a way, I'd like to keep it seperate, as business is business, and I wouldn't want it affecting my (or my sisters) personal life.

jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Its all well and good to say you could sue (and if i were you id be P.O too) but before going down the sue route, how confident are you about this agreement? Have you a signed engagement letter or a valid contract?The cost of getting a solicitor could wipe out your fee so id look into how valid your claim is first.


Also does your sister know about the outstanding cash? Dont presume she does if your so unsure.

Well while there's no agreement other than a vberbal one - I do have confirmation of this agreement in e-mails, texts, and saved gmail chats. Its beyond a reasonable doubt that there was an agreement in place.

I also have a copy of an email from him asking for an invoice, and of course my e-mail back to him with the invoice.

Of course at first ity would cost me to get a solicitor, but as this is a civil matter - I could also hit him for the costs should I win.

I really don't want to go down that route though. I just feel like I've been left with no option, and in fairness - who couldn't do with 2 grand that they're owed these days? (I'm not exactly flush with cash)

I don;t know whether I just wanted to vent my frustration out in this thread, or whether I was looking for all the answers, but thanks everyone for your input.

gandalf

I agree with you that you should keep this separate from your sister.

I think you need to very direct with him and stop beating around the bush. Ask directly when does he expect to pay you for the work that you have done on his behalf. Tell him that if the company is having cash flow problems that he can pay it in instalments over an agreed period like 3 months. You need to start setting deadlines with him and if he doesn't keep to them make it clear to him that you will have to take action to reimburse you for your professional time.

thecookingapple

This sucks, no doubt about that, look over 2000 grand is alot to be owed and to owe, why not do a four step payment plan and email him it, this is reasonable and will give you a clear indication whether he is really fobbing you off or if he is genuine and just stuck for cash, if you dont hear from him then take action, any reasonable person in business will be open to this and appreciate it, if he doesnt then you have your answer.

I've been in a situation similar to this, for a finish what I did was contacted the person that owed me the money and said:

Hi, Korbin Glamorous Cilantro here, listen in relation to the €2000 euro you owe me I'm sick and tired of waiting, I've contacted my solicitor and they've advised me to issue you with a final invoice which I have posted today. I expect full payment by 00/00/00 and if it hasn't been received by that date my solicitor will be dealing with the matter from then on.

I got the money on the final day with lots of "ah sure there was no need of that sure dont ya know id look after you" bullsh1t thrown in for good measure. Some people will just take take take, you have to stand up for yourself and take back from them. Best of luck.

Mocrie14

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Thanks for everyones replies - I'm still in a muddle over what to do though!

Everyone has valid points - though I don;t see myself standing outside his office - I have a job to go to!

I'm not sure if my sis knoes anything about it, and in a way, I'd like to keep it seperate, as business is business, and I wouldn't want it affecting my (or my sisters) personal life.




Well while there's no agreement other than a vberbal one - I do have confirmation of this agreement in e-mails, texts, and saved gmail chats. Its beyond a reasonable doubt that there was an agreement in place.

I also have a copy of an email from him asking for an invoice, and of course my e-mail back to him with the invoice.

Of course at first ity would cost me to get a solicitor, but as this is a civil matter - I could also hit him for the costs should I win.

I really don't want to go down that route though. I just feel like I've been left with no option, and in fairness - who couldn't do with 2 grand that they're owed these days? (I'm not exactly flush with cash)

I don;t know whether I just wanted to vent my frustration out in this thread, or whether I was looking for all the answers, but thanks everyone for your input.

Write to him giving him say, 7 days to pay or you'll refer it to a solicitor. If he does not pay immediately get a solicitor who does a lot of debt collection (loads of them these days) to write a letter. The last thing you want is to go down the legal route as it will drag on and on but hopefully the letter will do the trick. Letter should'nt cost more than €30/€40. The key is not to waste anymore time. If he offers to pay it in installments (and this is acceptable to you) make sure he sticks to the plan religiously. Dont give him an inch. Should it end up going to the courts it will help speed things up if you have some form of written acknowledgment of the debt by him ie so he cant put in a defence later to delay things. So keep those text messages and emails.

You snooze, you lose.

IrishEyes19

I see your reasons for not wanting to drag your sister into it, OP, but it would be far more insulting to her in my opinion if you ended up having a legal battle with her partner behind her back and she never heard one word of it before that. I just think it might soften the eventual blow, also if he doesnt respond now to your emails, ect, I doubt he will, without any legal action. So where to go from here is the tricky part.

LegacyUser

At the moment you are not the only person who is finding it hard to get payment for work that you have done. You have waited over a year for payment so need to send a solicitors letter stating that you want this payment by a certain date.
If debtor wants to pay you over a period of time get them to set up a standing order that will pay an agreed amount of funds into your bank account each week or month on a particular date or day. Get the bank account name of where the funds are being sent from and note this on the file you have for the job. This will help you keep track of what has been paid off and will help for you with your own bank recs.
Check up via internet banking that the funds are being sent on the date due and if not send a further solicitors letter.
Could the person who owes your money give you goods to the value of what work you did for them ie electrical shop giving you new cooker, dishwasher ect

Dublin_Gunner

Hi all, OP here, thanks again for everyones input.

Quick update.

I contacted him via text the other day outlining not only my extreme annoyance at this stage, but also that if he doesn't revert to me with an acceptable solution, I will be reverting the matter to a solicitor.

He started to get smart with me, asking 'what country do I think I'm in?' 'get a solicitor if I want' etc so I told him he'd left me know choice, so expect a letter before the end of the week.

Funnily, he then suddenly knew I meant business, and called me with his tail between his legs, giving me sob stories of the business being liquidated, and other creditors and suppliers not being paid, and I'm family and didn't want to fall out with me etc

So I basically told him that I am also an unpaid supplier (of design work) and because I'm his partners brother does not in any way suggest I should be treated any differently to any of his other suppliers he / his company owes money to.

We have now worked out a payment plan over the next few months to have this debt pad off.

So hopefully that will be the end of that.

Oh, and to put a comedic end to this - he told me about his new venture, and asked me if I wanted to be in on it with him as his designer....

I think I'd rather plant a fiver and see if it grows.

Pebbles68

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Funnily, he then suddenly knew I meant business, and called me with his tail between his legs, giving me sob stories of the business being liquidated, and other creditors and suppliers not being paid, and I'm family and didn't want to fall out with me etc

So I basically told him that I am also an unpaid supplier (of design work) and because I'm his partners brother does not in any way suggest I should be treated any differently to any of his other suppliers he / his company owes money to.

We have now worked out a payment plan over the next few months to have this debt pad off.

So hopefully that will be the end of that.

Sounds like Bullsh1t to me. If the company is really in liquidation you should have been contacted by the liquidator. If not it means that your invoice is not on record and he had no intention of ever paying you.
Ask for the name of the liquidator to be kept informed and tell him you want to go to the creditors meeting. If he is in any way vague or avoids direct answers my instinct says he's telling lies.

By the way, you own the intellectual property on your creativity until he pays in full. If he doesn't pay and continues to use your designs it'll cost him a hell of a lot more in court. I have experienced this myself and a company had to pay me 4 times my original invoice plus my legal fees.

And on another note, I would tell my sister. I'd rather her know now what sort of a guy she was dating and let her decide for herself if she wants a future with someone who would do this to family.