Cheating-the case so far...

thelongfellow

Hi guys,

Mud was thrown on this forum last year at a somewhat well-known Irish amateur golfer who, if reports on this website are to be believed, posted a score of 28 points on the morning of a Sunday competition and didn't like the thought of getting a 0.1 back for this score. Said player then submitted a new card where he had scored 36 points thinking that he would get no 0.1 back and continue on his way. But, the weather turned... and his new score of 36 points earned him a prize! Then, well the proverbial hit the fan...

As this was Senior Cup season the club in question took the player aside, told him off, and banned him for two weeks. Now, under GUI rules, it would be fair to assume that if this matter had went to the GUI this player would have been banned for at least a year. But no one would stand up and follow through on complaints that they made...

Just wondering what the guys on here today think of this situation? Is cheating now more rife in golf as can be seen by the Saltman Saga? Should our golfing peers, who know about certain instances of cheating, stand up and maintain the integrity of the game we love or just let these things slide and continue on their low-scoring way?

FlutterinBantam

thelongfellow wrote: »

Hi guys,

Mud was thrown on this forum last year at a somewhat well-known Irish amateur golfer who, if reports on this website are to be believed, posted a score of 28 points on the morning of a Sunday competition and didn't like the thought of getting a 0.1 back for this score. Said player then submitted a new card where he had scored 36 points thinking that he would get no 0.1 back and continue on his way. But, the weather turned... and his new score of 36 points earned him a prize! Then, well the proverbial hit the fan...

As this was Senior Cup season the club in question took the player aside, told him off, and banned him for two weeks. Now, under GUI rules, it would be fair to assume that if this matter had went to the GUI this player would have been banned for at least a year. But no one would stand up and follow through on complaints that they made...

Just wondering what the guys on here today think of this situation? Is cheating now more rife in golf as can be seen by the Saltman Saga? Should our golfing peers, who know about certain instances of cheating, stand up and maintain the integrity of the game we love or just let these things slide and continue on their low-scoring way?

Totally reprehensible.

Golf is a game of honour.


that's about it.

sollar

Cheats in golf need to be made feel like pariahs imo.

Blatant cheating is bad but so is the practice of handicap nursing. Its rife where i play and people make light of it in the club house which i find sad.

Sandwlch

I would make the distinction between cheats who break the rules of golf and handicap cheats.

On the rules of golf, the majority of club golfers probably break the rules in most competitive rounds. But it is trivial stuff (not marking a ball correctly on the green, not dropping correctly when taking relief, etc), is out of ignorance rather than deliberate cheating, has has no significant effect on the outcome.

Handicap cheating on the other hand is rife. 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 handicap golfers deliberately massage their handicaps. Depending on their motivation, this happens in both the upwards and downwards direction : players not returning cards so they wont get increases, players playing in minor competitions they have no intent of shooting a good score in so that they can get .1 back, players pulling if they are not far enough ahead to be sure of a win or dont like the booty, or players not playing qualifying comps at all and even being managed by clubs in doing this to ensure that the retain eligibility for interclub competitions. This cheating has a seriously distorting effect on the integrity of handicap golfing. Far far being made feel like pariahs, there is no real interest in most clubs to do anything about it - voluntary committee members just dont want the agro. And to be fair, its hard to blame them.

Russman

Sandwlch wrote: »

I would make the distinction between cheats who break the rules of golf and handicap cheats.

On the rules of golf, the majority of club golfers probably break the rules in most competitive rounds. But it is trivial stuff (not marking a ball correctly on the green, not dropping correctly when taking relief, etc), is out of ignorance rather than deliberate cheating, has has no significant effect on the outcome.

Handicap cheating on the other hand is rife. 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 handicap golfers deliberately massage their handicaps. Depending on their motivation, this happens in both the upwards and downwards direction : players not returning cards so they wont get increases, players playing in minor competitions they have no intent of shooting a good score in so that they can get .1 back, players pulling if they are not far enough ahead to be sure of a win or dont like the booty, or players not playing qualifying comps at all and even being managed by clubs in doing this to ensure that the retain eligibility for interclub competitions. This cheating has a seriously distorting effect on the integrity of handicap golfing. Far far being made feel like pariahs, there is no real interest in most clubs to do anything about it - voluntary committee members just dont want the agro. And to be fair, its hard to blame them.

I'd agree broadly with what you're saying but I'd say the number is lower than 1 in 4 to be honest. From my experience doing results its mostly players not returning cards as they don't want 0.1 that distorts the system.
I don't believe players not intending to shoot a good score is as big a problem, from what I've seen (and its only my opinion) most players who "build" a handicap can't produce the good score when they want to anyway, I think there are few enough genuine bandits who can do the score to order.
I also think the "pulling" thing can be overstated in clubs too. Not an exact comparison I know, but looking at the golf in the States tonight and Paul Casey shot 78 and 68 ie ten shots different in two rounds. Yet for some reason if a 12 handicapper does that there's usually a smart remark about pulling

soundsham

Taking 36 points as par for Casey
He would have had 30 pts followed by 40 pts
I have no problem there with the 40 points, it may be the best score on the day

The problem is bringing in the 47 or 48 points some beauty's get when there's a big prize on offer

42 Points should be enough to win 75% of the time imo

L.O.F.T

soundsham wrote: »

Taking 36 points as par for Casey
He would have had 30 pts followed by 40 pts
I have no problem there with the 40 points, it may be the best score on the day

The problem is bringing in the 47 or 48 points some beauty's get when there's a big prize on offer

42 PTA should be enough to win 75% of the time imo

I think those beauty's who shoot 47 / 48 points were never playing from the correct handicap in the first place. It happens in my place too when I'd shoot a nice 38 / 39 points and end up back of the class in a lowly 10/12 place. I couldn't be arsed about first place as its the cut im after but it is head scratching when a 20 handicapper rolls in with 45 odd points! every other week!!

Russman

soundsham wrote: »

Taking 36 points as par for Casey
He would have had 30 pts followed by 40 pts
I have no problem there with the 40 points, it may be the best score on the day

The problem is bringing in the 47 or 48 points some beauty's get when there's a big prize on offer

42 Points should be enough to win 75% of the time imo

Couldn't agree more with you. 47 or 48 is a crazy score, and should very rarely happen IMO, maybe a fast improving junior or something like that might do it, but it would just be the once

thelongfellow

FYI this was the original issue brought to our attention by a former poster here. Poster was annoyed but now they are friends again.

That senior cup incident did indeed happen paul, its the worst case iv ever heard of.....(and ive seen many) The guy in question had a poor enough score 28pts approx, and decided a new scorecard was needed......so refilled a fresh one with 36pts to avoid .1 ....and even signed his partners name on the new card.......However......the wind and rain got up for the afternoon and 36pts got in the prizes loooool, so this flashed up when the playing partner spotted the prizewinners.....he got a 2 week suspension from the club and senior cup was magically 3wks away......Had this been a gui event it would have been a minimum 1yr ban. Justice me arse.

k.p.h

Sorry for the Hi-Jack here on the thread but I just wanted to know I anyone knew what the penalty is for playing a ball from OB.

Realized I was outside the stake after getting up to the green. I had also taken relief from a ESB pole in the OB. This led me to being very confused so I didn't return a card. DQ'd myself. Would like to know what the proper way to handle this was.

Should I have went back and replayed the whole thing or take 2 strokes ?
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

Almaviva

k.p.h wrote: »

Sorry for the Hi-Jack here on the thread but I just wanted to know I anyone knew what the penalty is for playing a ball from OB.

Realized I was outside the stake after getting up to the green. I had also taken relief from a ESB pole in the OB. This led me to being very confused so I didn't return a card. DQ'd myself. Would like to know what the proper way to handle this was.

Should I have went back and replayed the whole thing or take 2 strokes ?
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

Both. 2 strokes for playing a wrong ball. And then gone back with another stroke and distance penalty and played another ball from where you hit the ball that went out of bounds. If the ball that went out of bounds was from your drive, you would then have been hitting your 5th shot from where the drive landed. Taking relief from the pole bit doesnt come into it since it was with a wrong ball.