M1..ahem 'upgrade' complete

opinion guy

Good Christ almighty has anyone else been along the completed so called 'upgrade' of the M1 from the airport towards swords?

For those who don't know this was previously a two lane 120kph stretch of road. Sure traffic would get heavy on rush hour but it would gnerally move along at around 80kph even when busy.

Well whatever collection of numpties designing the 'upgrade' have FUBAR'ed the thing royally. Not only does it now have a maximum speed limit of 60kph .....yes 60kph on a Motorway!!!!....but the additional third lane that has been installed comes to an abrupt stop just after the first Swords exit. Now it doesn't filter off into the exit like they usually do....no no......its stops more or less dead in the overtaking lane itself. Its not even subtle - there very little run out space for it - it just dissappears within 100 meters or so of the junction.


The overall effect of all this - especially given the proximity to the airport interchange is that the so called 'upgraded' stretch of road now consists of a place where none obeys the impossible 60kph speed limit. Ok I did one day in the left lane and simply put - I was an obstruction to traffic so I've given up on that. The other effect is that along this stretch there is FAR more lane changing going on than previously as some people try to barrel down the new overtaking lane and then cut across for the Swords exit, whilst others barrel down the middle lane and try to stay in it for the end of the overtaking lane, yet others trundle in the left most lane and at the exit are basically cut up at speed by those cutting across from the new overtaking lane.


Its INSANE.
Its appalling design.
Yes I know people should not be doing some of the things they are doing but nevertheless the design issues cannot be overlooked. They took a previously safe althou sometimes congested stretch of road and somehow made it slower and more dangerous.


(Aside: we'll say nothing for now about the 30kph stretch on the blanchardstown bridge heading into town from N3.......arghghghghghg)


Who is responsible for these things ?!?!??!:mad:

delly

The M1 works aren't actually finished, as the on ramp from the airport is supposed to be going straight to the Lissenhall exit meaning people won't actually have to join the main flow of traffic.

Regarding the right hand lane that filters back into the middle lane, well yeah, it is a bit suicidal considering our societies lack of merging skills. It won't actually be left like this however, the plan is to bring all three lanes out as far as the Donabate junction in the next phase, with the left most lane ending at said junction.

I suppose they could have left it two lanes until the whole stretch is done, but at least this way the airport junction bottleneck is reduced to near nothing.

Absurdum

see http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR215935&catID=243

opinion guy

delly wrote: »

The M1 works aren't actually finished, as the on ramp from the airport is supposed to be going straight to the Lissenhall exit meaning people won't actually have to join the main flow of traffic.

Regarding the right hand lane that filters back into the middle lane, well yeah, it is a bit suicidal considering our societies lack of merging skills. It won't actually be left like this however, the plan is to bring all three lanes out as far as the Donabate junction in the next phase, with the left most lane ending at said junction.

I suppose they could have left it two lanes until the whole stretch is done, but at least this way the airport junction bottleneck is reduced to near nothing.

I don't know if you've been out there yet but if you do you will notice it has a very finished look about it. The speed limit signs are all permanent ones, the crash barrieres are fitted all the contruction stuff is gone. Almost as if they expect it to be that way for some time. In this economic climate how long before the next part is completed ?

The way it is now is just dangerous. Would not surprise me if there is a serious crash on it.

Idleater

opinion guy wrote: »

its stops more or less dead in the overtaking lane itself. Its not even subtle - there very little run out space for it - it just dissappears within 100 meters or so of the junction.

As this is on my commute, I have been thinking about this during and "post" the upgrade works. In my experience of terminating lanes abroad, terminating the overtaking lane is correct as it should be the least populated of the three lanes. It does not make sense to terminate the LHS driving lane which would potentially cause an entire lane of HGV/Bus/caravan/slow cars to have to merge with the "middle" lane.

However, in practice with the middle lane hogged, the overtaking lane full of people overtaking the hoggers at 101kmph, and not one of them noticing the signs for the right lane terminating in 1km, 500m, 250m, 100m, and now, yes, the potential for an accident is quite high.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

opinion guy wrote: »

I don't know if you've been out there yet but if you do you will notice it has a very finished look about it. The speed limit signs are all permanent ones, the crash barrieres are fitted all the contruction stuff is gone. Almost as if they expect it to be that way for some time. In this economic climate how long before the next part is completed ?.

So it looks finished to you! Well it's not. The speed signs are still temporary. It's not dangerous at all if you keep to the posted speed limits - that's why they are there.

It'll be a great addition when it is actually finished.

opinion guy

Greyson Crooked Reimbursement wrote: »

So it looks finished to you! Well it's not. The speed signs are still temporary. It's not dangerous at all if you keep to the posted speed limits - that's why they are there.

It'll be a great addition when it is actually finished.

The 60kph speed signs are permanent ones. Both on the motorway and the on ramp. The temporary that were also there are gone.

I did keep to the speed limit. NOBODY else did. It was dangerous for me to be going so much slower than everyone else so I sped up to 80. Even at 80 I was the slowest thing on the road.

Since the next bit is only being put out to tender it will remain this way fro at least a year or two.

Its dangerous.
Frankly its an appaling way to leave a road

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

opinion guy wrote: »

The 60kph speed signs are permanent ones. Both on the motorway and the on ramp. The temporary that were also there are gone.
Its dangerous.
Frankly its an appaling way to leave a road

The signs may be on poles fixed to the road or whatever but ther are NOT permanent. How they are fixed does not decide on permancy. What part of that can't you grasp?

It's only dangerous if people disobey the signs and the law and exceed the posted speed limit.

The road is not being left like this. It is a work in progress. :rolleyes:

delly

opinion guy wrote: »

I don't know if you've been out there yet but if you do you will notice it has a very finished look about it. The speed limit signs are all permanent ones, the crash barrieres are fitted all the contruction stuff is gone. Almost as if they expect it to be that way for some time. In this economic climate how long before the next part is completed ?

The way it is now is just dangerous. Would not surprise me if there is a serious crash on it.

I pass it every day, and only yesterday saw diggers and workmen in action. The lanes closest to the median look finished, but there is still work being done on the lanes that interact with the on/off ramps, including road markings.

opinion guy

delly wrote: »

I pass it every day, and only yesterday saw diggers and workmen in action. The lanes closest to the median look finished, but there is still work being done on the lanes that interact with the on/off ramps, including road markings.

Sorry I should say I am talking mainly about the Northbound side which is finished. The south bound side yes still has some work being done.

mickdw

Greyson Crooked Reimbursement wrote: »

The signs may be on poles fixed to the road or whatever but ther are NOT permanent. How they are fixed does not decide on permancy. What part of that can't you grasp?

It's only dangerous if people disobey the signs and the law and exceed the posted speed limit.

The road is not being left like this. It is a work in progress. :rolleyes:

I have not driven the road in question but as an Engineer myself, I would be of the opinion that it is rather naive to think that you can give drivers a wide open motorway and then simply stick a low speed limit on it to allow for poor design, temporary or otherwise.
There is surely the possibility for accidents if the outside lane terminates as suddenly as described by the OP. It would only need someone unfamiliar with the layout driving in poor conditions for a pileup to happen.
There is no excuse really, temporary or not, the terminating lane should be gradual with run out area for the drivers who misjudge the situation. A stupidly low speed limit is certainly not the answer.

I recall some crazily short merging lanes at N4/M50 southbound at one stage during roadworks. Again should never have been allowed. Traffic on the motorway was not obeying the temporary limit making it rather difficult for anyone with a low powered car to join the motorway.

Absurdum

mickdw wrote: »

There is surely the possibility for accidents if the outside lane terminates as suddenly as described by the OP. It would only need someone unfamiliar with the layout driving in poor conditions for a pileup to happen.
There is no excuse really, temporary or not, the terminating lane should be gradual with run out area for the drivers who misjudge the situation. A stupidly low speed limit is certainly not the answer.

It's not sudden at all, as someone above pointed out, there are signs advising of the termination at various intervals as you approach the end. Many, if not most drivers seem to ignore these signs. This is the problem, not the layout or the speed limit.

Idleater

opinion guy wrote: »

The south bound side yes still has some work being done.

Since you mention it, I think the lane demarcation on the southbound side is more incorrect (as per my comments above) where the two lane section continue outwards and (two) new lanes appearing on the LHS.

As I understand it, the southbound onramp will lead direct to the airport off ramp and a new LHS lane will now exist. The way the lanes are drawn, it is the LHS lane that appears rather than the RHS one. This essentially means that the "fast lane" hoggers get directed to continue in the RHS lane, and the driving lane drivers get shunted into the centre lane - into which there is a mad scramble by all vehicles entering from the onramp.

This results in many vehicles veering across 4 lanes to make their airport exit, and the similar frenzy to get into the M50 lanes just as the two lanes from the airport merge in.

sigh... just glad I mostly navigate it on the motorbike and not in the car.

mickdw

Well fair enough, I have not drven it but road design (even temporary layout) must consider the actual behaviour of drivers more than any assumed perfect behaviour so if it is causing a problem due to the behaviour of many drivers, you have to towards the design.

Idleater

mickdw wrote: »

....if it is causing a problem due to the behaviour of many drivers, you have to towards the design.

I disagree, the laws of the land apply. Until the laws of the land say that the primary driving lane is the centre of three or the outside of two, then road design should follow the laws of the land.

It is not feasible to support any social structure on the basis of a disregard for the rules that govern that structure. By that logic for instance, if enough people don't like taxation (arguably "lots") society would simply ignore and not pay it which would have obvious unintended consequences for the entire population.

opinion guy

Absurdum wrote: »

It's not sudden at all, as someone above pointed out, there are signs advising of the termination at various intervals as you approach the end. Many, if not most drivers seem to ignore these signs. This is the problem, not the layout or the speed limit.

No I'm sorry it is sudden. By sudden I don't mean that you are not given warning of it - I'm talking about when the lane is stopping this is done over a very short distance. Given that this is the overtaking lane - i.e. the one in which cars are travelling fastest its dangerous to have a lane merge over a short distance. Its should be tapered out over a longer distance.
I also think its too close to the off ramp. It should have been done away from the junction.

Idleater wrote: »

Since you mention it, I think the lane demarcation on the southbound side is more incorrect (as per my comments above) where the two lane section continue outwards and (two) new lanes appearing on the LHS.

As I understand it, the southbound onramp will lead direct to the airport off ramp and a new LHS lane will now exist. The way the lanes are drawn, it is the LHS lane that appears rather than the RHS one. This essentially means that the "fast lane" hoggers get directed to continue in the RHS lane, and the driving lane drivers get shunted into the centre lane - into which there is a mad scramble by all vehicles entering from the onramp.

This results in many vehicles veering across 4 lanes to make their airport exit, and the similar frenzy to get into the M50 lanes just as the two lanes from the airport merge in.

sigh... just glad I mostly navigate it on the motorbike and not in the car.

I see your point but I don't really agree with you. I too have seen in other countries the type of lane termination that is on the Northbound carriageway - the US comes to mind. I actually think its safer the way the southbound carriageway is - which is also the way every other junction in the country is done. Part of the problem is that the Northbound arrangement is a novel one in this country.

Viper_JB

Idleater wrote: »

I disagree, the laws of the land apply. Until the laws of the land say that the primary driving lane is the centre of three or the outside of two, then road design should follow the laws of the land.

It is not feasible to support any social structure on the basis of a disregard for the rules that govern that structure. By that logic for instance, if enough people don't like taxation (arguably "lots") society would simply ignore and not pay it which would have obvious unintended consequences for the entire population.

You may disagree but that's not going to stop a poorly educated driver from driving into you in a panic, poor road design leads to deaths. I don't see the comparison to road tax though you cannot design a road with complete disreguard for how real people are going to use it....well you can, but your basically designing a death trap.

Idleater

Viper_JB wrote: »

you cannot design a road with complete disreguard for how real people are going to use it...

This is true, and to that extent the only common denominator between the worst, best and every other case in between is the legislative structure or the laws of the land.
These state drive on the left, overtake on the right, move in once the manoeuvre is complete, obey the legislative signs, heed the informative signs, and remember to be courteous to other road users.

How many varying road designs do you suggest accommodating for the "real" people of today using the roads? For example, do you think that you would be able to drive on the roads built to accommodate me on my motorcycle in a manner that is pleasing for me to drive?

Damien360

opinion guy wrote: »

The 60kph speed signs are permanent ones. Both on the motorway and the on ramp. The temporary that were also there are gone.

I did keep to the speed limit. NOBODY else did. It was dangerous for me to be going so much slower than everyone else so I sped up to 80. Even at 80 I was the slowest thing on the road.

Since the next bit is only being put out to tender it will remain this way fro at least a year or two.

Its dangerous.
Frankly its an appaling way to leave a road

I got pulled by traffic corp a few weeks ago there. I was doing 90kmph (I saw them and was consious of my speed). I was matching the speed of every other car around me. Anyway, he looked at my licence for about 3 seconds to confirm full licence, told me it was 60kmph zone and left it at that. No points.

60kmph is too slow for a road that size to maintain safely. Yes, i am part of the problem doing 90 but I do not fancy getting hit from behind.

opinion guy

Damien360 wrote: »

I got pulled by traffic corp a few weeks ago there. I was doing 90kmph (I saw them and was consious of my speed). I was matching the speed of every other car around me. Anyway, he looked at my licence for about 3 seconds to confirm full licence, told me it was 60kmph zone and left it at that. No points.

60kmph is too slow for a road that size to maintain safely. Yes, i am part of the problem doing 90 but I do not fancy getting hit from behind.

Exaclty. Like I said I felt VERY unsafe sticking to the 60kph limit. I'm sure the cop probably agreed with you that the limit is too slow

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

mickdw wrote: »

I have not driven the road in question but as an Engineer myself, I would be of the opinion that...

That says it all (and quite typical of many Civil Engineers that I know ). I do drive this road almost daily and I don't have a problem with it. It is under repair/refurb and is signed as such, with appropriate speed limits. Opinion Guy is venting a personal opinion and if you have no experience of the particular situation then you are not qualified to comment based on his biased description of the situation only. Sorry for ranting but it really is a situation that you would need to have experienced to evaluate properly.

Reg'stoy

I too drive this most days and I really don't have a problem with the road layout or speed limits (I can chose to obey or not to). I do have a problem with some of the drivers using the road, who irrespective of road markings or limits will always sit in the 3rd or overtaking lane because they believe it is theirs by right and it will be a sad day when we plan roads based on their selfish behaviour.

An accident if and when it happens will be down to poor driving as in lack of observation (road signs are very visible) and well lets call a spade a spade, ignorance; ignorance of the rules of the road and for other road users.

mickdw

Greyson Crooked Reimbursement wrote: »

That says it all (and quite typical of many Civil Engineers that I know ). I do drive this road almost daily and I don't have a problem with it. It is under repair/refurb and is signed as such, with appropriate speed limits. Opinion Guy is venting a personal opinion and if you have no experience of the particular situation then you are not qualified to comment based on his biased description of the situation only. Sorry for ranting but it really is a situation that you would need to have experienced to evaluate properly.

I agree re not having driven the road.

Some of the management of road works around the country is scandalous though.

opinion guy

Greyson Crooked Reimbursement wrote: »

That says it all (and quite typical of many Civil Engineers that I know ). I do drive this road almost daily and I don't have a problem with it. It is under repair/refurb and is signed as such, with appropriate speed limits. Opinion Guy is venting a personal opinion and if you have no experience of the particular situation then you are not qualified to comment based on his biased description of the situation only. Sorry for ranting but it really is a situation that you would need to have experienced to evaluate properly.

I actually agree with you regarding people having to experience it for yourself. But you are missing mickdw's point. People will drive how they choose. As reg'stoy says himself - he, and everyone else can chose to obey or not. If a road is designed well - people will on average obey the rules. If a road is designed badly, as I believe this one is, people will disobey the rules.

And one thing we have all agreed on on this thread so far is that everyone is disobeying the rules on this stretch of road.

Mark my words - something bad will happen on this stretch of road and the road design will be a contributing factor. Personally, if I am perfectly honest, I think its conducive to pile-ups the way it currently is set up.

opinion guy

mickdw wrote: »

I agree re not having driven the road.

Some of the management of road works around the country is scandalous though.

Mickdw if you do happen to pass that way would be interesting to here your professional opinion having seen it in the rock, so to speak

R.O.R

The changes on the M1 have shaved about 20 minutes off my journey home (from the M50, Northbound) and about 30 minutes off the wife's (coming from Whitehall), so I don't see how it's in any shape or form a disaster

I hit the M50/M1 merge around 18.00 every evening, and have seen 1 accident there - 2 days after the extra lane was openend, and have only had a couple of near misses (which happens all over the Irish road network).

Stay in the inside lane from coming off the M50 until near the end of the 60km limit and you're fine. Let the sitters and idiots fight it out in lanes 2 and 3.

As for the merge finishing quickly, the 3rd lane has to end somewhere.

seagull

The northbound works are not finished yet. The third lane is intended to be extended, as long as it doesn't get pulled due to budget restraints.

opinion guy

seagull wrote: »

The northbound works are not finished yet. The third lane is intended to be extended, as long as it doesn't get pulled due to budget restraints.

In other words they are finished for now

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

opinion guy wrote: »

In other words they are finished for now

That is neither what was said nor what is happening. You seem determined not to accept any of the facts on this issue.

Whet through at 5.30 this evening. Made great time and no hassle anywhere.

It must be your driving.:p