Has anyone succesfully appealed a Luas fine that was issued on the platform?

wikkybikky

i have read around the other 9 million luas fine threads on here but can't find a definitive answer to the question "do the luas inspectors have any right to ask you to show a ticket once you have disembarked?"

my boyfriend was caught that way the other day, i REALLY dont want anyone to reply with the same old " he should have had a ticket"....i just want to know if anyone has successfully appealed a fine that was issued after the journey had been completed.

Nothing in the bye law states that the platform is a paying or ticketed area, nor that you must retain your ticket for inspection after your journey is complete/disembarking from the vehicle etc

Can anyone who has experience of this shed some light on it?

cheers !

Victor

I stongly suspect such a defence will fall on deaf ears.

The platforms are Luas property. However, I suspect that is rather incidental, he was seen using the tram and didn't have a ticket. The alternative to paying the fine is going to court - fines of up to €1,000 have been imposed.

wikkybikky

in his case yes he didn't have a ticket, but say he did and was just being pig headed and answered "no" when asked to produce it- what then?
If he had ignored the inspector & just kept walking there is no way they could have legally restrained him.
I just really want to know what authority they have to ask you to to produce a ticket for a completed journey once you have left the vehicle.

edited to add- i am looking at this from the point of view of getting away with it on a technicality, the same way as if they made a mistake on a parking fine (wrong date or something) that made it void only a fool would still pay the fine. If my boyfriend had been caught the normal way, on the tram he would have no bother and just pay, but we think its ****e that they issue fines once you are off the luas and would really like to know if its legit or not.

KD345

Victor wrote: »

The platforms are Luas property. .

Not all are. Mayor Square, Mayor Street, Abbey Street, Jervis Street, Chancery Street, Smithfield, Benbutb Street, James' Hospital, Stephen's Green etc. are all public streets.

bk

wikkybikky do you and your boyfriend just stroll into Tesco and take whatever you like too without paying? Because this is no different, theft is theft.

He can take it to court if he likes, but I think he has very little chance and risks a €1000 fine if the court finds him guilty.

A judge is likely to look on this very dimly. Where he was caught is irrelevant. Really no different then the store security guys who grab shop lifters just outside the store.

BTW if he had tried just to walk away, the inspectors could carry out a citizens arrest, just like store security personal too.

Really I think he should just pay up and learn to pay your way the like rest of us in future.

wikkybikky

thanks for the unnecessary morality lecture there moderator. As I made clear in my 1st and follow up posts I would like to hear from people who have actually been in this situation, i just want to know the legal standing of a ticket inspection once you are no longer a passenger on the vehicle

my boyfriend called the luas customer care but they could not or would not give a clear answer

I don't really want to read anyones "opinions" on the matter- there are so many threads on this topic already but as I mentioned, none that gave any definitive proven answer.

Fattes

bk; Citizens arrest does not exists in Ireland there is a provision in the law for

"Any person can arrest someone who they have reasonable cause is in the act of committing or has committed an "arrestable" offence, that is one punishable by more than 5 years in prison. The arrest can only be effected if the arrestor has reasonable cause that the person will attempt to avoid apprehension by Gardaí and the arrestor delivers the person to Garda custody as soon as is practicable."

There is now provision for non payment of transport fare that will land in a 5 year jail term, store security do not have the power to arrest or apprehend someone if the refuse to return to the store.

The power of Luas inspectors to stop and ask you to show your ticket stops as soon as you leave the tram, any fine issued on the platform could be reasonably contested.

AlekSmart

wikkybikky wrote: »

in his case yes he didn't have a ticket, but say he did and was just being pig headed and answered "no" when asked to produce it- what then?

edited to add- i am looking at this from the point of view of getting away with it on a technicality, the same way as if they made a mistake on a parking fine (wrong date or something) that made it void only a fool would still pay the fine. If my boyfriend had been caught the normal way, on the tram he would have no bother and just pay, but we think its ****e that they issue fines once you are off the luas and would really like to know if its legit or not.

It`s a valid question right `nuff,BUT not on here.....IF you or your BF are so concerned about "Technicalities" then man-up and get it all sorted out for good n`ever.

I've no doubt but with enough marketing effort,you and BF could get enough fellow-travellers on Boards to finance your waltz along the Legal avenue...This would solve everybodys dilemma,...the Boardsies who are overburdened with awe-inspiring tales of derring do from assorted fare-evaders and the evasive types themselves who are otherwise condemned to a life of uncertainty and self-doubt...YOU GO, WikkyBikki,GO GIRL and get this sorted out in the Courts......:D

PS....Please do lettus all know how yiz get on...;)

wikkybikky

Fattes wrote: »

The power of Luas inspectors to stop and ask you to show your ticket stops as soon as you leave the tram, any fine issued on the platform could be reasonably contested.

Thanks Fattes, sorry to be a pedant but do you know this for a fact or do you just think this is the case?

Del2005

There's a very easy way to find out what powers they have.

Do nothing and wait for the summons.

If none arrives then he got away with it, not sure how long you'll have to wait.

If one arrives then you can have your day in court and also find out.

wikkybikky

we have 30 days to appeal the fine, we want to know if we can appeal it on those grounds. we are not going to be ridiculous and go to court over something if we can legitimately appeal it. If we can't legitimately appeal it we will pay the fine.

what is difficult to understand about this ?!?

surely someone on here has been asked to show a ticket on the platform and simply ignored the inspector- if they did I would just like to know what the outcome of that was.

AlekSmart

wikkybikky wrote: »

we have 30 days to appeal the fine, we want to know if we can appeal it on those grounds. we are not going to be ridiculous and go to court over something if we can legitimately appeal it. If we can't legitimately appeal it we will pay the fine.

what is difficult to understand about this ?!?

surely someone on here has been asked to show a ticket on the platform and simply ignored the inspector- if they did I would just like to know what the outcome of that was.

Just a question on this...does the OP refer to one person finding themselves in this position or is it a multiple scenario ?

Sometimes it's the simplest situations which are most difficult to understand.....;)

At this juncture I'd suggest that the answer to Wikkibikki's final question is...No there's not..which means the way is clear for a trailblazing crusade ?

wikkybikky

I thought it would be clear to most readers that I was referring to myself and my boyfriend AlekSmart. Do you have anything helpful to contribute or would you just prefer to continue with the inane comments ? here is a smiley face so you know that I am actually REALLY funny and cool

Tragedy

Victor wrote: »

I stongly suspect such a defence will fall on deaf ears.

The platforms are Luas property. However, I suspect that is rather incidental, he was seen using the tram and didn't have a ticket. The alternative to paying the fine is going to court - fines of up to €1,000 have been imposed.

It's not about whether he had a ticket, it's about whether the Luas inspectors had the right to stop him and inspect his ticket when he was on public property.

OP, I doubt you'll get the fine reversed based on a technicality, your best chance would have been to not stop for the ticket inspector and refuse to present a ticket based on his having no right to ask for one.

Bringing it to court would be exorbitant and just not worth it.

Anecdote: Uncle was stopped outside a Lidl a few years ago by store security, who tried bring him back into the store and search him(or tried search him outside the store, definitely one of the two ). He brought them to court and received substantial compensation.

mikemac

Your boyfriend made a mistake in not being agressive.

I see it all the time on the luas


Quiet office workers on their way to work without a ticket get fined, fair enough.
Smoking, fighting, messing skangers are put off the luas and they get the next luas a few minutes later :rolleyes:

The Luas staff go for the easy targets.
At this stage I'd happily pay a euro or two surcharge to get STT on my Luas

wikkybikky, tell your boyfriend to put his head down on the platform and just walk, say nothing. If he gets stopped then still say nothing and just walk around the staff.
I'm all for paying fares but I also get Dublin Bus 78A and I can tell you then are more pass holders then fare paying customers on that bus. Go to the top deck, it shows :mad:

bk

Tell me wikkybikky, why exactly should we help you break the law and steal?

Your boyfriend is stealing from me and all the other honest people who pay our fare every day. We all pay increased fares for thieves like him.

Personally I'm delighted they are catching fare dodgers like your boyfriend.

Frankly your boyfriend should be embarrassed for getting caught stealing, pay his fine and not do it again. You break the law and get caught, then tough.

By all means appeal the fine on the grounds that he was off the tram. If they reject the appeal (very likely), then either pay it or go to court. It is very simple really.

Tragedy

bk wrote: »

Tell me wikkybikky, why exactly should we help you break the law and steal?

Your boyfriend is stealing from me and all the other honest people who pay our fare every day. We all pay increased fares for thieves like him.

Personally I'm delighted they are catching fare dodgers like your boyfriend.

Frankly your boyfriend should be embarrassed for getting caught stealing, pay his fine and not do it again. You break the law and get caught, then tough.

By all means appeal the fine on the grounds that he was off the tram. If they reject the appeal (very likely), then either pay it or go to court. It is very simple really.

OP asked a question, OP didn't ask for your morals or ethics. Please get off your soapbox, as clearly the OP has zero interest in them.

Personally, I couldn't care how delighted you are and I doubt the OP does either.

bk

Tragedy wrote: »

OP asked a question, OP didn't ask for your morals or ethics. Please get off your soapbox, as clearly the OP has zero interest in them.

Personally, I couldn't care how delighted you are and I doubt the OP does either.

OP has the right to ask whatever question she wants * and I have the right to respond however I want.

It saddens me greatly that it seems some people have so little morals and ethics and just want to skate their responsibility and find a loop hole. Shouldn't we all question such activity when we see it?

* Actually it is arguable that the OP's question is in violation of the charter of this forum:

In terms of legal or similar issues, they should be related to Commuting / Transport issues. Note: it is the responsibility of recipient to verify any information received and the recipient is liable for his or her own actions, whether acting or refraining from acting based on any information. The promotion of any illegal, including fraudulent or dishonest, activity will not be tolerated.

It is a grey area, but you could argue that the OP's post is promoting dishonest activity.

Tragedy

bk wrote: »

OP has the right to ask whatever question she wants * and I have the right to respond however I want.

It saddens me greatly that it seems some people have so little morals and ethics and just want to skate their responsibility and find a loop hole. Shouldn't we all question such activity when we see it?

What you're doing is tantamount to trolling. You're posting offtopic and the most likely reason is seeking an emotional response.

bk

Tragedy wrote: »

What you're doing is tantamount to trolling. You're posting offtopic and the most likely reason is seeking an emotional response.

No, my posts aren't off topic, nor are they trolling. If you go back over them you will see I actually answer the OP's question, telling her to go ahead and appeal it, but that if the appeal fails, he will need to bring it to court.

I then expand the discussion by asking if it is right for us to be helping a dishonest person avoid facing the penalty?

Just because the OP asked us not to discuss it further then the question, doesn't mean we can't expand the conversation. boards.ie doesn't work this way, it is a discussion forum, the op or you don't get to decide the breath of the conversation, the community does. boards.ie is a place where everything can be discussed and debated as long as it is within the rules of the site and forum charter and the mods don't object.

I find it highly sad that you are attacking me, for simply discussing morals and ethics. Rather then the OP, a person who is asking how to get her boyfriend off for stealing. :eek:

-Chris-

The OP doesn't want anyone to talk about whether what their boyfriend did was right or wrong.

The OP has admitted that their boyfriend didn't have a ticket (and therefore was liable to be fined if caught) and wants advice on how to get off on a technicality.

This thread will only ever go one way... thread closed.