Assisted Suicide - Dignitas Switzerland

gent9662

I heard this morning that the gardai turned up at a travel agents to intercept two people picking up tickets to Switzerland in order to visit the Dignitas assisted suicide clinic. I believe that one of the women has advanced multiple sclerosis and wanted to travel. The other person was told that if they assisted in the travel that they would be arrested upon return to Ireland.

I find it funny how somebody can be arrested for doing this outside the jurisdiction of Ireland. Is it fair?

Why don't the gardai then start arresting Irish partners who help their wives/girlfriends/partners travelling to England for abortions?

WindSock

How did the authorities find out, I wonder.

HeisenbergBB

This is interesting.. OP do you have a link for this story?

WindSock wrote: »

How did the authorities find out, I wonder.

I'd imagine they must have benn tipped off by a friend or family member?

dclane wrote: »

Why don't the gardai then start arresting Irish partners who help their wives/girlfriends/partners from travelling to England for abortions?

I've a feeling this could strike up a different debate!!

Biggins

This will bring back up the case of the young Irish girl who wanted to travel to England for an abortion, some years ago (she was stopped from traveling by Gardi).
In that case, the right of freedom to travel was re-enforced by a subsequent ruling.

If anyone assists another with travel alone - that is NOT a crime in itself - the Gardi would have to prove the connection between the travel aiding and also the same person then also aiding the death of an individual.

I suspect that other members of the family who feel different over the situation, might have tipped off the Gardi.
This one incident (like last time) might blow up in the faces of the Gardi big time through the media alone!

wild_cat

Biggins wrote: »

This will bring back up the case of the young Irish girl who wanted to travel to England for an abortion, some years ago (she was stopped from traveling by Gardi).
In that case, the right of freedom to travel was re-enforced by a subsequent ruling.

The X case?

I was only young when it happened but I still hold a grudge against the authorities about their behaviour during that period.

My Mum's father died from cancer, she once told me that even though she didn't want him to die she knew that he was finally out of pain and that relived her somewhat.

If its incurable, life is becoming increasing difficult, your going to eventually die in extreme pain and you are in the right mental frame I have no problem with someone wanting to die with dignity.

I've often told people close to me that if I am ever involved in an accident where I end up in a vegetated state to bring me to Switzerland to end it. I couldn't bare the thought of being a burden or peoples memories of me being that of just a shell.

gent9662

This is the place:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/nov/18/assisted-suicide-dignitas-house

Biggins

wild_cat wrote: »

The X case?

I was only young when it happened but I still hold a grudge against the authorities about their behaviour during that period.

Yea, thats the one.

The area of right/wrong of suicide, etc is a whole subject in itself but as regards the Gardi issuing threats to someone for assisting a person to travel - irregardless of what the inflicted person might do afterwards under their own volition - is a stretch of the law I think and is encroaching upon serious infringements of personal rights.

freyners

dclane wrote:

Why don't the gardai then start arresting Irish partners who help their wives/girlfriends/partners travelling to England for abortions?

you cant stop people travelling to have one...its in the constitution

Bunreacht na hEireann wrote:

The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.

Guill

You can go on holidays with whomever you want, if they happen to visit an assisted suicide clinic while there that's not your fault, once you leave no evidence of your involvement behind....how were you to know?

wild_cat

Biggins wrote: »

The area of right/wrong of suicide, etc is a whole subject in itself but as regards the Gardi issuing threats to someone for assisting a person to travel - irregardless of what the inflicted person might do afterwards under their own volition - is a stretch of the law I think and is encroaching upon serious infringements of personal rights.

Exactly.

I can only imagine the type of person that thought they were doing a good deed to report them. I presume the mental anguish in coming to such a decision is bad enough without the gardai arresting someone who loves/trusts you enough to believe your coming to the right decision. The majority of people don't want to see anyone die unless its the last straw.


And as you mentioned they might have arrived over there and changed their mind.

seamus

Biggins wrote: »

The area of right/wrong of suicide, etc is a whole subject in itself but as regards the Gardi issuing threats to someone for assisting a person to travel - irregardless of what the inflicted person might do afterwards under their own volition - is a stretch of the law I think and is encroaching upon serious infringements of personal rights.

Well, there's a certain amount of argument that if the person is incapable of travelling without assistance, then the person accopanying them is complicit in a conspiracy to commit suicide.

The Criminal Law (Suicide) Act, 1993; Section 2:

A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the suicide of another, or an attempt by another to commit suicide, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

So it's fair to say that if the person accompanying the suicidee is aware of the reason for travelling, then they are "abetting" them, as travelling with them is a form of support. It doesn't matter if the suicide takes place overseas.

I too would have to wonder who tipped the Gardai off. Most likely an interfering family member.

I can't really blame the Gardai on this one. They're doing their job. They don't exactly have the right to ignore the law based on their own personal morality.

It's also worth noting that the story in the OP doesn't appear to indicate that anyone's freedom of travel has been violated. The Gardai didn't confiscate tickets or arrest anyone.

Orando Broom

dclane wrote: »

I heard this morning that the gardai turned up at a travel agents to intercept two people picking up tickets to Switzerland in order to visit the Dignitas assisted suicide clinic. I believe that one of the women has advanced multiple sclerosis and wanted to travel. The other person was told that if they assisted in the travel that they would be arrested upon return to Ireland.

I find it funny how somebody can be arrested for doing this outside the jurisdiction of Ireland. Is it fair?

Why don't the gardai then start arresting Irish partners who help their wives/girlfriends/partners travelling to England for abortions?

What would happen if the Guards had beaten her to death?

No..wait.

They probably gave her medicine to perk her up a bit, the cruel hoors.

opinion guy

Whilst I largely agree with Biggins, I think we should be careful to consider there may be elements to the story we are not privvy to. Obviousuly someone must have tipped off the cops, which hints there may be disagreement within the family. I agree that the cops should not be able to prosecute you for travelling with someone........BUT and its a big but - its possible that this person may be overly influencing the MS patient. Maybe the other family members have made a complaint along these lines. In which case the guards actually would have a case for intervening.

Anyhow I'm playing devils' advocate here - but the point is there can be more going on here than we know about.

IvyTheTerrible

I agree in principle with assisted suicide in cases of terminal illness. HOWEVER what worries me is perhaps undue influence from interested parties (if you have an inheritance to worry about) and I'm not entirely sure how that can be avoided.

I completely disagree with people being forbidden to travel outside the state though.

Biggins

seamus wrote: »

Well, there's a certain amount of argument that if the person is incapable of travelling without assistance, then the person accopanying them is complicit in a conspiracy to commit suicide.

The Criminal Law (Suicide) Act, 1993; Section 2:

So it's fair to say that if the person accompanying the suicidee is aware of the reason for travelling, then they are "abetting" them, as travelling with them is a form of support. It doesn't matter if the suicide takes place overseas.

I can't really blame the Gardai on this one. They're doing their job. They don't exactly have the right to ignore the law based on their own personal morality.

It's also worth noting that the story in the OP doesn't appear to indicate that anyone's freedom of travel has been violated. The Gardai didn't confiscate tickets or arrest anyone.

opinion guy wrote: »

Whilst I largely agree with Biggins, I think we should be careful to consider there may be elements to the story we are not privvy to. Obviousuly someone must have tipped off the cops, which hints there may be disagreement within the family. I agree that the cops should not be able to prosecute you for travelling with someone........BUT and its a big but - its possible that this person may be overly influencing the MS patient. Maybe the other family members have made a complaint along these lines. In which case the guards actually would have a case for intervening.

Anyhow I'm playing devils' advocate here - but the point is there can be more going on here than we know about.

Both statements absolutely true.

I additionally was trying to say that the case for the Gardi to show actual linking between the eventual death and how it came about - to/with the person that gave assistance for aiding travel might be darn hard to prove in the letter of the law - and a good solicitor with boil it down to the letter of the law in looking to get his/her client off - as we all might know.

The Gardi in the OP case outlined above, might have advised those involved as to the legal risks - but to stop them receiving their tickets (I don't know if or not this happened) might be a step their might not have been entitled to do.

The person assisting could actually claim that the inflicted person was going over to do research on the matter - but once they got over there - under their own steam - decided to do what they were going to do, regardless of those that just assisted travel for them!
...And for the Gardi to prove otherwise would/will be very darn hard in legal terms.