ATTN: People who think there should be NO minimum wage, no employment regulations etc

hatrickpatrick

...is this the kind of thing you want to see happening in Ireland?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/apr/30/apple-chinese-workers-treated-inhumanely

RichardAnd

A good post and a poignant message. I'm just going to advise you to write a little bit about the article in your post otherwise the mods might close the thread.

meditraitor

Who are these people that want

"no employment regulations"?

Godge

I don't think there is a reasonably argued post anywhere on boards calling for no minimum wage and no minimum employment regulation.

I am sure that there are posts that call for a reduction in the minimum wage to the European average or below and also posts that call for a reduction in the compliance burden of employment regulation. There are legitimate arguments for and against both of those that can and should be debated in a reasoned manner.

However, starting out a thread with a link to a story about employment practices in China and a provocative headline is not the way to start a reasoned debate.

ei.sdraob

Wow what a start to a thread :eek: ignoring aside that wages are growing rapidly over there

If these workers weren't making ipads (I hear @Permabear rub hands and kiss the Apple stock certs :P),
what would the be doing? toiling in the fields? starving??

Anyways something else to think about
China's foreign reserves are are about 2 trillion euro (at current exchange rate)
If they paid 20% of their population ~200 euro a week for being unemployed as one gets here they would run out of money in a few months, and join our ranks of "developed" countries :P

Mr. Presentable

This is more suited to the Apple media devices forum, no? Not much relevance to Irish Economy.

Head The Wall

Now all you thickos that have Apple products, this is the monster you have created

hatrickpatrick

There are people every single week posting on this board arguing that the minimum wage should be abolished. I am merely pointing out how things might end up if it is.

OMD

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

There are people every single week posting on this board arguing that the minimum wage should be abolished. I am merely pointing out how things might end up if it is.

I haven't noticed people calling for an end to min imum wage but if it was abolished why do you think we would turn like the Chinese example. We had no minimum wage for much longer than we have had one and the world didn't fall in on us. Also as has been mentioned already, conditions in China, bad as they are, are still an improvemnet on previous conditions.

Do all European countries have a minimum wage? If memory serves me correctly Germany has no minimum wage. Maybe we should abolish ours and end up like German workers.

Edit: Just checked it out. Germany has no minimum wage. China has:rolleyes:so pretty stupid example of what might happen us if we abolished minimum wage.

Chuck Stone

In before an Anarcho capitalists says that this wouldn't happen in their fantasy land of angelic capitalists.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Chuck Stone

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

We're you dating or waving as you passed each other in cabs?

There's a difference between being well paid and choosing to work and being piad very little to work long hours.

RichardAnd

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That must have been quite a dull releationship

Anyway, before people jump on one extreme or another, remember that the OP is only (I think) trying to raise the point of what can happen when all the cards are on the employers table.

Nothing in life is ever so black and white.

ei.sdraob

RichardAnd wrote: »

That must have been quite a dull releationship

Anyway, before people jump on one extreme or another, remember that the OP is only (I think) trying to raise the point of what can happen when all the cards are on the employers table.

Nothing in life is ever so black and white.

Your missing a point there, they have employers we have unemployment

why are Ipads not being build in Ireland if our system is so much more superiour?

Amhran Nua

Godge wrote: »

I am sure that there are posts that call for a reduction in the minimum wage to the European average or below

We're within a hundred euros a month or so of the average monthly minimum wage in most Western European countries, or a variance of about 10%, basically the same. You can't include Eastern Europe in any comparison, any more than you can include China.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

barney4001

the best thing is probably to have the politions and senators on minimum wages with no expence or phone accounts like the rest of us,this would waken them up im sure

novarock

Head The Wall wrote: »

Now all you thickos that have Apple products, this is the monster you have created

where was your PC made?

Id love to get one that wasnt made in china... Did you do months worth of research into finding one with no chinese made parts?

We should discuss this over a vegan fairtrade hot chocolate sometime...

OMD

Amhran Nua wrote: »

We're within a hundred euros a month or so of the average monthly minimum wage in most Western European countries, or a variance of about 10%, basically the same. You can't include Eastern Europe in any comparison, any more than you can include China.

Have you a link for that? Wikipedia (not the most reliable I know) puts us as third highest after Monaco & Luxemborg and a lot more than most.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage

RayM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It's not a rant. It's a news article, reporting the findings of the research of two separate NGOs. The very same story appeared in the Daily Mail - a paper which can hardly be described as having an anti-capitalist agenda. By casually dismissing the article, you do your credibility no favours at all.

Amhran Nua

OMD wrote: »

Have you a link for that? Wikipedia (not the most reliable I know) puts us as third highest after Monaco & Luxemborg and a lot more than most.

Eurostat should do nicely. Even more interesting, the purchasing power standard actually puts our minimum near the bottom of group three.

OMD

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Eurostat should do nicely. Even more interesting, the purchasing power standard actually puts our minimum near the bottom of group three.

But the groups are based on rates of minimum wage.i.e. low, medium and high minimum wage. The eurostat figures show Ireland has the second highest minimum wage. Even allowing for purchasing power our mimimum wage is 5th highest.

Amhran Nua

OMD wrote: »

But the groups are based on rates of minimum wage.i.e. low, medium and high minimum wage. The eurostat figures show Ireland has the second highest minimum wage. Even allowing for purchasing power our mimimum wage is 5th highest.

And look at the luminaries in the lower brackets, 60% of the European countries there are members of the PIGS group, with either massive endemic corruption and/or 20%+ unemployment rates. Further down you get to underdeveloped former soviet bloc states, again these are not comparable. Germany and the Scandinavian states don't have a listing since they don't have a minimum wage (negotiated on a sectorial basis), but their average wages are along the same lines as ours - they couldn't maintain the large tax base with low wages.

What we are directly comparable to are the likes of France and the UK, which sounds about right, or at least certainly not excessive.

In fact higher minimum wages appear to be connected to economic success, perhaps we should consider increasing ours? I mean its not like the minimum wage had any connection to causing the problems in Ireland, so why should it be a casualty? Then we get to multiplier effects and that the main voices calling for a cut are those in the notorious restaurant and hotel sectors. Enough said really.

Our problem isnt the minimum wage it is the
job specific minimum wages as set by the labour courts....!


Its illegal to pay below Jclea rates etc - you cant bargain to get work done on your house hence the massive black market.


Idiotic and it does not help the unemployment rates

cosanostra

The only way minimum wage or social welfare payments should be reduced is if the cost of living is reduced first!

Ireland has one of the highest cost of living in Europe and that is why we have one of the highest minimum wage rates!

The first way to bring down Irelands cost of living is by reducing VAT gradually then along with that reduce minimum wage and indeed all wage rates to suit, this in return will make Ireland a far more competitive place to do business = jobs

Only once this is done can the economy grow but this government and the previous one seem to think bleeding everyone until they are destitute is the best plan

PeakOutput

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

There are people every single week posting on this board arguing that the minimum wage should be abolished. I am merely pointing out how things might end up if it is.

There is a pretty massive gap between thinking the minimum wage should be abolished and that there should be zero employment regulation at all. this is obvious so you are deliberately being overly dramatic

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Delancey

cosanostra wrote: »

The only way minimum wage or social welfare payments should be reduced is if the cost of living is reduced first!

Ireland has one of the highest cost of living in Europe and that is why we have one of the highest minimum wage rates!

The first way to bring down Irelands cost of living is by reducing VAT gradually then along with that reduce minimum wage and indeed all wage rates to suit, this in return will make Ireland a far more competitive place to do business = jobs

Only once this is done can the economy grow but this government and the previous one seem to think bleeding everyone until they are destitute is the best plan

+ 1 . Constant comparisons of Social Welfare rates ( and Public Service pay I may add ) in Ireland vs. the rest of Europe are of limited value.
The cost of living here is ridiculous - just compare the average basket of groceries here to elsewhere.
Furthermore many countries have benefits not available here - universal health care , genuinely ' free ' education ( not free Irish style where parents are asked to make a 'contribution' ).

WalterMitty

Delancey wrote: »

+ 1 . Constant comparisons of Social Welfare rates ( and Public Service pay I may add ) in Ireland vs. the rest of Europe are of limited value.
The cost of living here is ridiculous - just compare the average basket of groceries here to elsewhere.
Furthermore many countries have benefits not available here - universal health care , genuinely ' free ' education ( not free Irish style where parents are asked to make a 'contribution' ).

But we arent owed a high standard of livning by the rest of the world. How do you think the cost of living is 30% higher here than EU average? If private businesses who ultimately generate the wealth to pay for public services were to use same logic they would demand more from international customers than their EU competitiors because of "high cost of doing business in Ireland" and what do you think those customers would say?
in the position we are in we cant say "our cost of living is higher so we demand to be paid more by the rest of the world". Costs of running state must come down as well as the new taxes but even doubling income tax wouldnt come close to closing gap.
There is enough EU and dometic legislation without needing a min wage. Our basic dole here is more than the the min wage in most of america, the worlds most powerfull economy. Says a lot. We have to reduce our standard of living in line with the new reality of being an average EU country.
The min wage and other wage agreements are merely a futile attempt by trade union types to resist market rates for labour which are ultimately determined internationally and not locally.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Amhran Nua

WalterMitty wrote: »

How do you think the cost of living is 30% higher here than EU average?

We're an island that imports most of its staples. Once again, the EU is also composed in part of large bodies of underdeveloped economies from the former soviet bloc, so waving at the EU average is pointless.

Sweden, average wage €1000 a week. Norway, €900 a week. Germany, over €1000 a week. Denmark, over €1000 a week. None of them low wage destinations, none of them in trouble economically.

Look elsewhere for the means to reinvigorate our economy than private sector wage cuts, would be my advice.

Delancey

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

A fair point to make and one that is especially relevant to the high inflation we see in government -delivered services such as health and education since benchmarking.
Not entirely convinced that it fully explains the reason why everything is more expensive in the shops here than elsewhere - I suspect good old price gouging may be the culprit here.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jimmycrackcorm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Would you want to be a foxconn employee though? I saw a documentary on those workers and their living conditions so reminded me of a chicken coop.

Steve Jobs health has taken quite a toll on him ....

I've thought too though that part of the problem is the sudden mass demand for products such as the iPad where pricing is not used to maximize profit against demand.

andrew

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Would you want to be a foxconn employee though? I saw a documentary on those workers and their living conditions so reminded me of a chicken coop.

Steve Jobs health has taken quite a toll on him ....

I've thought too though that part of the problem is the sudden mass demand for products such as the iPad where pricing is not used to maximize profit against demand.

500,000 people work for Foxcomm! Jesus. As a side note, If they've got the same suicide rate as china as a whole there (19.7 for men), then they should be averaging 98 suicides per year there, so if it's just 17 who've committed suicide, then that's really quite low. Admittedly, i've done about 5 mins research into this calculation, so I could be wrong.

OMD

cosanostra wrote: »

Ireland has one of the highest cost of living in Europe and that is why we have one of the highest minimum wage rates!

No it doesn't. Ireland has nowhere near the highest cost of living in Europe. This is the spin that unions constantly bleat on about and it is simply untrue.

http://www.finfacts.ie/costofliving.htm

http://www.xpatulator.com/outside.cfm?lid=100

DJLJ

andrew wrote: »

500,000 people work for Foxcomm! Jesus. As a side note, If they've got the same suicide rate as china as a whole there (19.7 for men), then they should be averaging 98 suicides per year there, so if it's just 17 who've committed suicide, then that's really quite low. Admittedly, i've done about 5 mins research into this calculation, so I could be wrong.

They have a less than average, for China, suicide rate. Foxconn makes parts for lots of different companies, Apple being one of them. This comes across as the usual badly written article from some journalist, that then wants to create a specific spin on it and sell it and articles about Apple sells.

hatrickpatrick

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Don't forget the frankly appalling number of people who have committed suicide at the plant in question...

Jaysoose

Im still at a loss at what this has to do with the Irish Economy?

DJLJ

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Don't forget the frankly appalling number of people who have committed suicide at the plant in question...

Please provide evidence for this. Because when you do, you will see that the amount of people in that factory divided by the amount of suicides is less than the average for China or Ireland or US. Is this what you deem to be appalling?

PeakOutput

DJLJ wrote: »

Please provide evidence for this. Because when you do, you will see that the amount of people in that factory divided by the amount of suicides is less than the average for China or Ireland or US. Is this what you deem to be appalling?

A little knowledge is very dangerous. It is funny that people claim this supplier is so terrible when its workers have a lower chance of suicide (significantly lower) then anyone else in that country who dosn't work for them.

Prakari

In a capitalist system, when the masses do not have the capability to engage in effective protest, conditions of slavery will develop. If you complain about your wages or try to set up a union in China, you would be lucky to only lose your job.

PeakOutput

Prakari wrote: »

In a capitalist system, when the masses do not have the capability to engage in effective protest, conditions of slavery will develop. If you complain about your wages or try to set up a union in China, you would be lucky to only lose your job.

And that has what to do with Ireland and the minimum wage?

Godge

Amhran Nua wrote: »

And look at the luminaries in the lower brackets, 60% of the European countries there are members of the PIGS group, with either massive endemic corruption and/or 20%+ unemployment rates. Further down you get to underdeveloped former soviet bloc states, again these are not comparable. Germany and the Scandinavian states don't have a listing since they don't have a minimum wage (negotiated on a sectorial basis), but their average wages are along the same lines as ours - they couldn't maintain the large tax base with low wages.

What we are directly comparable to are the likes of France and the UK, which sounds about right, or at least certainly not excessive.

In fact higher minimum wages appear to be connected to economic success, perhaps we should consider increasing ours? I mean its not like the minimum wage had any connection to causing the problems in Ireland, so why should it be a casualty? Then we get to multiplier effects and that the main voices calling for a cut are those in the notorious restaurant and hotel sectors. Enough said really.

Wrong, we need our hourly wages to be lower than the Euopean average but our working hours to be longer so that we can be more productive and counter the disadvantage of being a small island on the edge of Europe.

Jaysoose

PeakOutput wrote: »

And that has what to do with Ireland and the minimum wage?

Im still trying to figure this out aswell. The OP has just posted an article thats totally unrelated and uncomparable to the working conditions in Ireland and started shouting.."how would you like ireland to be like this...this is what will happen" without a shred of evidence or even logic to his argument..thread is weird.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Amhran Nua

Godge wrote: »

Wrong, we need our hourly wages to be lower than the Euopean average but our working hours to be longer so that we can be more productive and counter the disadvantage of being a small island on the edge of Europe.

Once again, the European average also includes former sov-bloc states, trying to chase that rabbit down the hole is severely counterproductive to put it mildly. Ask yourself instead how small countries on the edge of Europe, some sitting right on the Arctic circle, have countered their own disadvantages and are doing quite comfortably right now.

Godge

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Once again, the European average also includes former sov-bloc states, trying to chase that rabbit down the hole is severely counterproductive to put it mildly. Ask yourself instead how small countries on the edge of Europe, some sitting right on the Arctic circle, have countered their own disadvantages and are doing quite comfortably right now.

Iceland and Norway have vast natural resources (oil and fish) that they rely on. Sweden and Finland have a historical industrial base that they have continually modernised and developed - nokia and ericsson being only two examples - which we lack. Denmark is continually innovating - is now the world leader in producing windmills. Like the UK, it has its own currency which allows it control over its economic destiny and allowed it to avoid the worst of our excesses. All of those countries are better positioned than us and can afford higher minimum wages (note: most of them don't have higher minimum wages).

Other than history and an ability to speak the English language, we have no competitive advantage over Poland, the Czech Republic, Bulgaria or Romania etc. In fact, given they are on the main landmass, they have advantages in terms of being closer to the large markets that we don't have, not forgettting that they also have large domestic markets. But history doesn't matter, the future does and everyone is learning English. What will we have in future?

Quite simply, to build a future, we will have to work at a lower hourly wage cost, for longer hours and more productively in order to stay ahead. The lower hourly wage starts at the bottom and we need to get our costs down, including the minimum wage.

Burying our head in the sand and pretending that because we were never Soviet bloc that we are better than those countries and will always be better than them is a very short-sighted attitude that is bound to fail.

andrew

With regard to people saying that average minimum wage levels aren't a suitable cross country comparison, the chart in this post is adjusted for the fact that prices vary across countries. This graph can be interpreted as though prices are the same in every European country. As such, it remains the case that Ireland's minimum wage is on the high end of the scale.

Are there any statistics as to how many people are actually on the minimum wage anyway? (With a sectoral breakdown)? I don't think there are enough workers on the minimum wage here for it to make much of a difference whether or not the minimum wage is high or low, from a macro point of view. As in, it's not as though lowering the minimum wage is going to suddenly raise GDP by a lot. I think it matters most in preventing long term unemployment, and ensuring that lowly skilled people are able to find a job, rather than having to go on the dole. And if you lower the minimum wage, then you have to (or at least it makes sense to) lower the dole too, which further incentivises people to take, and search for, jobs. So overall I think lowering the minimum wage would be a good thing. Or at least it was a good thing.

Anyway, what's this thread even about?

SupaNova

Are there any statistics as to how many people are actually on the minimum wage anyway? (With a sectoral breakdown)? I don't think there are enough workers on the minimum wage here for it to make much of a difference whether or not the minimum wage is high or low, from a macro point of view. As in, it's not as though lowering the minimum wage is going to suddenly raise GDP by a lot. I think it matters most in preventing long term unemployment, and ensuring that lowly skilled people are able to find a job, rather than having to go on the dole. And if you lower the minimum wage, then you have to (or at least it makes sense to) lower the dole too, which further incentivises people to take, and search for, jobs. So overall I think lowering the minimum wage would be a good thing. Or at least it was a good thing.

Agree. We have quite a labor supply right now and not much demand to employ them at current prices. I am sure with a significant reduction in min wage factories all over the country could put a dent in unemployment. With a reduced min wage on top of our low CT tax it would make it more attractive for MNC's to set up here, and also more attractive for those considering moving to stay.