The safest most flexible build in TvT?

Orizio

What is it exactly? I tried 1 rax or 2 rax FE but it seems to die to a number of one base stuff, cloacked banshee and bf hellions drops are strong but a lot of players at my level get blind turrets or else put down a money scan revealing everything. Plus both tech become pretty worthless later game. A siege tank contain seems both very strong and very weak. Three rax dies to tanks. The icecho thing gets progressively weaker as the game goes on, particularly if its scouted and the opening drop fails.

Right now I'm thinking a 1/1/1 reaper opening to scout, then siege tank expand into tank/viking/marine and turtle, get a third then rush to BCs. Whats say ye?:pac:

IRL_Sinister

1/1/1 with a bunker. Safe as houses :>

Orizio

Pfft, I think we are trying to debate something that is a little more in-depth Sinister. 'Just go 1/1/1 with bunker trollollol' indeed.

Khazidhea

Playing safe is "hard". Strong 1-base timing pushes can just win games much faster (and thus it looks "easier") but you still have to do a lot to make a timing push work. These include cheesy things because you actually have to know how to cheese.

I assume you are macro is not that good. Playing safe means okay let me open somehow to not die in early game and then surely I will out-macro him. Do you want to play like that? I mean it is the "right" way to play, but you gonna lose. And then you gonna think and analyze and change some things so you wont die to this thing next time. And dont say it was imba or build order lose, check how you can scout and deal with it. Pull workers to repair or something.

Like I was trying out bio in TvT. Because I like mobility and drops. Attacking tank\marine is suicidal. I figured I have to drop to pull his marines back and then killing naked tanks is easy. But back to opening, I was dying to early tank\marine\viking pushes A LOT. Like 2-3 tanks, 10ish marines, 1-2 vikings. My style was 1-1-1 with quick stim, a hellion for scout, banshee for scout (mainly) and maybe some harass, raven for detection against banshees and pdd against marauder push, cc in main, 2 more rax. That's how Sjow used to play EVERY game in ALL matchups back then when maps were small. And my TvP and TvT was exactly that. Again, back to the tank push. It just killed me. But I realized if I have stim, 1 medivac I can pull scvs to absorb tank fire and kill all his stuff. And then I just attack him and he doesnt have anything and cant reinforce. Then there are earlier things like marine-scv all-ins, just build a bunker. Reapers - position your marines to counter this. There are LOTS of small adjustments to make.




You can take any of the builds you mentioned and it can be safe if you execute it correctly. And to do that you need lots of practice. So focus on one thing. Drill it really hard.


1) Cloacked banshees? You can harass with 2 in different places and make him waste lots of scans and dont lose banshees. It is hard, but you can. Blind turrets - good for you, he wasted minerals. So you have more marines. Or maybe earlier expo. And if he builts a lot of defense he cant attack you, just expand.

2) Hellion drops. Again you can keep at alive and not just throw it away. Drop later, it is a huge threat to him. He moves out - you drop, kill all scvs and somehow hold his attack - you win. He moves out - you drop, kill all scvs he pulls back to defend but its too late - the best case scenario for you. And I guarantee at your level this will happen a lot. People do not realize that it is better to all-in when something like this happened.

3) FE - learn how much you can sacrifice to stay alive and in the end still end up ahead. I.e. when to lift up, get back into you base and defend ramp. When to pull workers to repair. When to pull workers to fight. How much workers do you need. Learn to micro infantry against tanks. How to make good arcs. How to counter attack. Like if he has only marines and tanks at your base 1 drop or 1 banhee can just kill him. And you can probably hold his attack. See how much "playign safe FE" harder than previous openings that are somewhat timing atacks?

4) 3 rax. Map control. He moves out - you kill tanks unsieged. When he sieges - you back up. His push is very slow and you can EXPAND and get more stuff.

5) Siege contain. Now you are on the offense. Now you have to look and lockdown any kind of counterattacks. You wanna be annoying. Like spread out your tanks and make only 1 attack something. Then move in with marines shoot at something, he get angry charges at marines, you back up into siege range and he follows everything just dies. Bait him. Bait his vikings into your marines. And keep your vikings under your pdd if you have one. Bring 1-3 scvs to repair, people at your level probably dont do it and you save your tanks.


6) iEchoic thing. I dont like the original build. But I've seen other good people playing hellion + air (Sjow and oGstheSTC) and the composition is kinda cool. The idea is kinda cool. Insane map control. You should expand a lot with this build and prevent your opponent from doing that. Denying his natural would be hard, but you can deny his 3rd and quickly get ahead in base count. But you have to tailor your composition accurately. The % of vikings in your air. You should have JUST ENOUGH to be able to win air battle, but you want banshees\BCs to kill ground.


7) Hell even mass reaper works in TvT high level play. It was on day9 daily some korean guy. He hid his reapers in bunkers, kept massing them and then just SUDDENLY. It is a surprise 1-time build but still. It can work on ladder on every opponent you havent met yet


My point is it is not the build that is a problem. You seem to know what a build is and what builds are available. You just have to work on your play if you wanna win more. If you keep switching builds and not learning how to actually play the game you gonna lose. I am not trying to be harsh on you, it is just the ladder is designed this way, your winrate should be about 50%. If you won some games using some "imba-build" you gonna run into players who know how to deal with it and get crushed. Then you switch to new thing, kinda get a feeling of it, get on a win streak and then back to losing.

I KNOW that you can get away with ANY (reasonable) build (like the ones you listed) if you do it right until masters. Any unit composition. 7 rax marines only. All day till you are masters. And you will learn how to properly micro marines against any other unit\unit composition and keeping up with your macro. Yes there IS macro for this build. Constant muling and you have to keep up 7 raxes producing and you BARELY have minerals to support it, so no queueing. And if you skip 1 round of marines you might lose. And you will probably get flamed for this but you are actually doing a lot of good job if you are doing it right. TLO does it and wins over Idra and Spanishiwa.

I actually believe that you can get away with any build until you are grandmaster. And I think top level progamers can definetly fool around doing some crazy and retarded **** in the start of the game and still eventually win against 80% of the people in the grandmaster league.


P.S. My English is horrible, but sorry I am not gonna edit it. I originally was going to just outline 1-1-1 with bunker like Sinister did But then I got somewhat angry because there is always so much discussion about things like that and people always blame something instead of trying to improve (especially zergs ), so I wrote this whole "rant".

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

constant scv production

10 depot (and keep thrwing down depots at the right time)
12 rax
13 gas
15cc
17 factory (2 hellions, then siege tanks from there on out)
when factory finished throw down second gas
when you have the money thrown down a barracks
21 starport (reactor, pump vikings)
25 CC
27 barracks
29 factory
35 fusion core
lift startport, make tech lab pump bc's

expand when you can

Orizio

Khazidhea, my macro seems better then most players I play against but it suffers in TvT because I don't have a fixed build and no plan. I know what I am aiming for in TvZ and TvP and so my macro is (relatively) solid throughout - in TvT, I have no safe build, no plan, and no idea how to win which effects my macro because I'm constanly in doubt.

I mean I win the vast majority of my TvZs, break even in TvP but just lose every single TvT. And I mean every single one. Against silver and bronze players. I don't see how my macro can be good, again in relative terms, in one match-up and horrible in an other one.

Finally, I'm not blaming anything, I'm doing my best to improve this particular match-up.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

look, I have to admit cos I feel bad you';re actually gonna try this
i was trolling you
do not try that build
well, maybe.. i mean i just made it up on the spot but maybe i'm some sort of latent sc2 build order genius

--edit

for srs this time, for tvt.. marine tank viking maybe throw some marauders in there too. it just works.

and learn to love your engineering bays and armouries, upgrade like a mother****er and it will win you games.

Orizio

Thanks for the help.

IRL_Sinister

Tbh EBays and upgrades are becoming more and more relevant to the builds I'm going for now. Don't really want to get into details but I was, essentially, losing to Protoss by getting outupgraded. After trying various different strats I've started going Double EBay builds and it's working far better. Not going to say it's going to work as effectively in mirror matchup, but the same principle is there - if you have more upgrades than your opponent you will probably win.

Orizio

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

Tbh EBays and upgrades are becoming more and more relevant to the builds I'm going for now. Don't really want to get into details but I was, essentially, losing to Protoss by getting outupgraded. After trying various different strats I've started going Double EBay builds and it's working far better. Not going to say it's going to work as effectively in mirror matchup, but the same principle is there - if you have more upgrades than your opponent you will probably win.

Won't you still get out-upgraded in TvP if he goes double forge and uses his chronoboosts? Upgrades seem to be the major reason I lose in TvP even if I concentrate on getting them out.

IRL_Sinister

Yes, and no, depends on what unit compositions/timings/bases, etc, you go for. (:

Khazidhea

I am not bashing you

I am just saying you can win with any of the builds you listed. Whatever suits your style. What is your style? What unit do you like?

Then when you stick to something watch how pros do it. I suggest watching Kas he has like 80% winrate in TvT and plays a lot of styles and you can find a lot of replays. Watch replays rather than VODs because it is very hard to pick up order from VOD. Replays might be out dated, but you want at least 3 of the same build to somehow learn it. And then just play a lot.

And watch Day9! Watch how he goes about stealing a build. Write some numbers down on a piece of paper and try to stick to it while playing.

phisku

Cloaked banshee is easy to pull off and very safe.
you just have to keep banshee alive if he doesn't have turrets or if you see turrets, cancel the cloak research and invest in siege tanks.

IRL_Sinister

Cloaked Banshee may be easy to pull off but it's also incredibly bad. It's extremely hard to tech out of and if you misjudge the situation it's really bad (ie; he's going for heavy mech and arrives at your ramp with stim MM youinsta-lose) for you. He's asking for a safe TvT build - don't go with Banshees.

With regards to my opening post that IS the safest opening you can get. You say I lack detail, yet so does your opening post. What exactly are you looking for? If you want to survive in TvT, get 1-1-1 with a bunker. If you want to FE expand in TvT then I suggest you do Reactor Marines + Tanks with Turrets.

EDIT: F*ck it I have 10 mins until I leave for my bus so here's a list of possible (VIABLE) TvT openings that will work for most games.

Opening 1, 1-1-1

This is the most standard opening build and originates, I believe, from SC:BW.

The build order is extremely basic.

• Rax + CC at 15, gas after rax.
• Factory at 100 gas
• Second gas after factory
• Tech Lab on Factory
• Starport after Rax

This enables you to get a steady stream of Marines, Tanks and Vikings/Raven/Medivacs.

Get an expansion at 400 minerals and reactor on Rax ASAP after (switch with Starport)


Con:

===> Means a slightly later expansion.

Pros:

===> Safe as houses
===> Enables you to quickly switch structures (ie; after you get first viking switch starport and fac for Raven if Banshee)
===> Quick Siege Tech
===> Solid, and constant, unit composition and production.

My opinion: Master this at a lower level and it will develop your Terran vs any race incredibly well. If you can work on your macro with this build you will learn a lot about the race and learn to develop and transition into better builds. This is super solid. Cannot suggest it enough.

Opening 2, the Banshee

• 15 rax + CC
• gas after rax
• at 100 gas second gas
• 150 minerals Factory
• Tech Lab on Factory
• Starport

This enables you to get a fast cloak banshee as well as a Raven if needed. The early second gas enables you to get, relatively, quick Siege Mode. This build requires you to get a Bunker and will generally mean a Reactor on your Rax.

Cons:

===> Sucks vs early pressure, particularly BF Helion drops and bio
===> Extremely hard to transition out of if committed to it (ie; 2 cloaked banshees)
===> Gas intensive

Pros:

===> It's a motherfackin' Banshee - they rock
===> Quick expansion
===> If not expected can finish a game immediately
===> Can contain/harass opponent quite well

My opinion: This is terrible.

Opening 3, The Fast Expansion

Don't have time for this now, will finish it later.

Opening 4, Blue Flame Helions, Baby.

Don't have time for this now, will finish it later.

Opening 5, The Early Contain

Don't have time for this now, will finish it later.

Opening 6, Your Opponent likes Banshees?

Don't have time for this now, will finish it later.

Other

Don't have time for this now, will finish it later.

Khazidhea

Cloaked banshee is easy to pull off and very safe.
you just have to keep banshee alive if he doesn't have turrets or if you see turrets, cancel the cloak research and invest in siege tanks.

I remember you asked me about builds on LAN and I said banshees just kill everything in every matchup And you immediately tried it in the next game and it was kinda bad =\ But seems like you are sticking to it

Orizio

IRL_Sinister wrote: »

. You say I lack detail, yet so does your opening post. What exactly are you looking for?

:P lol dude I was trolling you. Thanks for the post, about to go through it...

Orizio

Alright, my latest TvT, versus a Diamond...

Link.

Opinions? Obvious mistake is not getting my third quick enough. How do I stop that push at the end? How do I harass more and better? Is my opening build safe?

IRL_Sinister

Alright, the opening was very solid although I don't really understand why you got a Reaper instead of continuing to produce Marines (especially if you're going to scan; if you can't see his buildings you can assume he's up to something funky and just build the EBay).

• You didn't get stim.... or well, it was waaaaaaaaaaaay too late.
• You maxed out waaaaaaaaaay before him but DIDN'T CONTROL THE TOWERS. If you had simply just pushed up the left hand side with some (NOTE: NOT ALL) Tanks and a handful of Marines you would have kicked his expansion and forced him into a horrible position. Remember, if he continues to turtle up after you kick his expansion just drop him with 4-8 marines to annoy his SCVs. He'll fall behind FAST.
• Ebay was late.
• You were floating a lot of minerals - remember what I told you - for everyone expansion get AT LEAST 4 more production buildings (More if it's just rax marines)
• Bind your Ebay and Armory, the first tier of upgrades are incredible cheap (100/100) and can be gotten immediately once your macro slips with binds. As the game progressed you really shouldn't be in your base, for the most part, unless building depots.
• If you're going for that many Marines you have to apply pressure and get map control. There's really no other point against a standard Mech build unless you get map control, stim in and snipe off some tanks when unsieged. You had a HUGE window to push him and because of a lack of scouting you didn't take it .

TL;DR You need to scout and take control of the towers.

Orizio

Well the reaper was to scout so I wouldn't have to waste a scan, if I got a reaper and scanned anyway then I don't know what I was at.

Thanks for the rest - not taking xel naga, late third, upgrades and getting stim late are constant problems, like every game. I hate attacking in TvT because I never know when I'm ahead, because you can lose so much with one misclick and because I'm forced to siege my enemy, he then drops me with half his army and I'm dead. I kind of want to defend, max and get to battlecruisers before he does.

IRL_Sinister

lol good luck with that. But on a more serious note, and I was asked this at the last LAN too quite often.

There's a little thing I've discovered that I personally like...

Assuming you get the normal time on CC (15) at the ~6.10 mark you get exactly 50 energy (assuming decent macro!). Instead of using a MULE at this point I use it to scan.

Why?

Pretty simple; if you scan then you will catch the Starport just as it has transferred over to the Tech Lab for Banshees. If not, you'll see his tech path. If you see nothing he's attempting to hide something and you can play a bit more defensive.

It's only a small thing, but if you're having scouting problems in TvT, just use that scan ~6 min mark instead of a MULE unless you're very confident and you'll get a VERY good insight into what your opponent is doing.

Of course, I'm expecting these timings above Gold

RoyalMarine

when it comes to the reaper, i use it over a scan because chances are you might get to kill 1 scv and that sets him back 50 minerals.. so its not a complete waste if they then kill the scv..

just me 2 cents

IRL_Sinister

(Can't edit my other post)

Cloaked Banshee may be easy to pull off but it's also incredibly bad. It's extremely hard to tech out of and if you misjudge the situation it's really bad (ie; he's going for heavy mech and arrives at your ramp with stim MM youinsta-lose) for you. He's asking for a safe TvT build - don't go with Banshees.

With regards to my opening post that IS the safest opening you can get. You say I lack detail, yet so does your opening post. What exactly are you looking for? If you want to survive in TvT, get 1-1-1 with a bunker. If you want to FE expand in TvT then I suggest you do Reactor Marines + Tanks with Turrets.

EDIT: F*ck it I have 10 mins until I leave for my bus so here's a list of possible (VIABLE) TvT openings that will work for most games.


Opening 1, 1-1-1

This is the most standard opening build and originates, I believe, from SC:BW.

The build order is extremely basic.

• Rax + CC at 15, gas after rax.
• Factory at 100 gas
• Second gas after factory
• Tech Lab on Factory
• Starport after Rax

This enables you to get a steady stream of Marines, Tanks and Vikings/Raven/Medivacs.

Get an expansion at 400 minerals and reactor on Rax ASAP after (switch with Starport)


Con:

===> Means a slightly later expansion.

Pros:

===> Safe as houses
===> Enables you to quickly switch structures (ie; after you get first viking switch starport and fac for Raven if Banshee)
===> Quick Siege Tech
===> Solid, and constant, unit composition and production.

My opinion: Master this at a lower level and it will develop your Terran vs any race incredibly well. If you can work on your macro with this build you will learn a lot about the race and learn to develop and transition into better builds. This is super solid. Cannot suggest it enough.

Opening 2, the Banshee

• 15 rax + CC
• gas after rax
• at 100 gas second gas
• 150 minerals Factory
• Tech Lab on Factory
• Starport

This enables you to get a fast cloak banshee as well as a Raven if needed. The early second gas enables you to get, relatively, quick Siege Mode. This build requires you to get a Bunker and will generally mean a Reactor on your Rax.

Cons:

===> Sucks vs early pressure, particularly BF Helion drops and bio
===> Extremely hard to transition out of if committed to it (ie; 2 cloaked banshees)
===> Gas intensive

Pros:

===> It's a motherfackin' Banshee - they rock
===> Quick expansion
===> If not expected can finish a game immediately
===> Can contain/harass opponent quite well

My opinion: This is terrible.

Opening 3, The Fast Expansion

The build order for this is pretty obvious. You also have 2 options, you either get 1 rax or 2 rax and transition from there.

Everything as normal 15 CC etc but don't get gas. At 400 minerals (sometime after second depot) you build an OC. Once the OC is being built you have the option to go maaaaaaaaaaaass bio and really go macro mode or to transition into something else. This build is quite heavily dependent on macro and your ability to defend and harass.

Pros:===> Fast expansion
===> Can get a really big force very quickly
===> Lots of options to transition in to

Cons:

===> Prone to early contains and all-ins
===> Difficult to successfully execute without good macro and defense
===> Relies quite a bit on harassment (drops/BF Helions) to ensure you stay in the lead
===> Weak vs. crazy 1 base tech all-ins

Opening 4, Blue Flame Helions, Baby.

This is the first of 2 builds I'm using regularly and having GOOD levels of success with. This build revolves around the most efficient economy-based harassment in the game. The potential of this build is really good and is VERY strong mid-late game. It has its weaknesses early game. I suggest following this build up with a mech ball.

• Standard opening [12 rax, 13 gas, 15 CC]
• Factory followed by second gas
• Keep pumping marines, SCVs and building Depots
• Tech Lab on Factory
• Bunker
• From the Factory produce a Helion + research Blue Flame (You'll have exactly 150 gas if done correctly).
• Once the first helion is out you'll have enough gas for a Starport - build one.
• Once the Starport is built (just after the second helion comes out) build a Medivac.
• Get a Reactor on your Barracks [explained later] - remember you have a Bunker (and ~3/4 other marines outside assuming you were constantly producing)
• Fly the Medivac over to the enemy base and either drop the helions directly into his mineral line or the edge of his base and run in. It does not matter if you do not kill TONNNNNES of SCV's a small number is enough; he will still have less than you.
• Build an OC when the Medivac is flying over
• Research Siege Tech and get a Siege Tank from your Factory once the 3rd (or 4th depending on macro) Helion comes out
• Once you have your OC in production lift off your Rax (with the Reactor) and build a [2nd] Factory in its place.

As you can see I've done a lot of work on this build and I like it a lot. As mentioned before, I always use my scan ~6min mark to see if he's getting banshees or not (if he is, instead of getting Siege Tech and a Tank I will switch the Starport and Fac [NOTE: AFTER THE MEDIVAC AND BLUE FLAME ARE DONE] as you will have the gas available) so I'm prepared for Banshees and I have a bunker at my choke already. Once I'm building the CC I like to get a second factory and pumping Helions and Tanks out. From there (once the expansion begins to get saturated) I start my mech transition getting 2 Armories and 2/3 more Factories. If your macro slips you can always build another OC and float it off. In this build I generally avoid getting Stim and Marines as it's just a waste of gas (just personal preference though!)

From there I can constantly produce Helions, Tanks and Thors and continue to harass him. Helions are INSANELY cheap and you can just run Helions in and around his mineral lines picking off as many SCVs as you can at a time. Remember, if you kill only 2 SCVs (And that's GUARANTEED) you already get the price of 1 helion back (+ of course mining time and the various other coefficients). I drop him when I can with Helions while harassing his expos with others. It's really, really fun and really frustrating for him to deal with. The beauty of this build is that you will constantly be floating tonnes of minerals (not the case with gas though) so you can just expand all over the map. I'm a big fan of upgrades so I get my double Armory up ASAP and begin pumping out the upgrades.

This is a pretty strong build and if you get to mid-late game you're going to have a nice advantage and have lots of fun seeing him rage over helions :_)))))

Pros:

===> Strong harassment
===> Mech ball is still one of the strongest in the game
===> Tonnes of minerals
===> Not too heavily dependent on micro
===> Can give HUGE advantages for little cost
===> Super efficient
===> "Relatively" quick expansion
===> Can deal with Banshees and Marines VERY well
===> Deals with early contains well
===> Pretty linear tech path (if you follow the order above)

Cons:

===> 3 rax can f*ck sh*t up
===> Very weak early-game (Bunker HIGHLY recommended)
===> 100% based on strong economic harassment - this will do little damage vs an army
===> Not much room for transitions due to a lack of gas
===> I find it hard to gain air control due to a commitment to Siege Tech, Blue Flame and Medivac early game. But it's also a good thing if he blindly spams Vikings and you just walk in and lolstomp his ground army

I love this build and I've personally refined it to go in to purely mech. You could, of course, refine it for your personal style this is just mine. You need to realise that this build is weak vs really early pressure (and is generally SH*TE vs Protoss) and that when you use the Helions they NEED to do damage as they are a pretty big commitment. However, the chances are you WILL do damage.

I'm in College at the moment but I'll get replays up when I can.

Opening 5, The Early Contain

This is the second of the 2 builds I've been working on lately [Look at Build 4 for the other] and is extremely easy to pull off. I started working on this build when I came across people who were going 15 OC or 1 Rax expands without gas on ladder, particularly on the bigger maps. I was actually struggling to beat it as I hate all-in and found a build online and started refining it for my style. Since then, I've used this on ladder and in Tournaments with good success (Out of 5 Tournament games I've lost 1 TvT and that was against Gomas a top 50 Grandmasters Terran; the others were ALL Masters). This build gives you a strong early-game position allowing you to expand. It also gives you a LOT of freedom to transition into whatever you want as well as providing a strong defense.

• Standard opening [12 Rax, 13 gas, 15 CC]
• Factory at 100 gas followed by a second gas.
• Keep pumping SCVs and building depots
• Build Marines until the Factory is complete
• Once the Factory is complete get a Reactor on your Barracks and a Tech Lab on your Factory.
• Do not build a Starport.
• Begin Siege Tech and begin getting Siege Tanks
• Pump Marines from the Rax.
• Get an expansion when you have 400 minerals (which you will)
• Once your second Tank comes out go and push towards his base and just contain him. If he has gone for a fast expansion you've already won. If not just stay below his ramp and send marines up 1-by-1 to pick off anything.
• Remember to scan for Banshees.
• Build an Engineering Bay blindly (you'll probably want it for upgrades anyway).
• After your second tank DO NOT rally reinforcements to your "contain army" - rally them to your main to defend against drops and Banshees. If you scout or suspect Banshees build that Turret. Remember to keep pumping Marines from the Rax.
• If he's camping in his base just soft contain him with your initial force and once you have your expansion up and running pack up and go home. If he tries to break the contain (SCVs, etc) chances are you're going to lose that little army but at a major cost to his economy so no problem. Just do the most damage you can.
• Lift off Rax and Build a Starport in its place (if you see he has Vikings pump Vikings - if not get Medivacs or whatever). Build a Tech Lab on your Barracks and get Stim/Combat Shields
• Transition/Tech/Upgrade as you please.

Alright, so the beauty of this build is you can defend against anything. Against the standard 1-1-1 you're going to have Siege Tech before him so you can do some great early game harassment before he has his Tech. Against Fast Expansions this build is insane - 99% they'll break the contain with SCVs but at a major cost; you'll already have your expansion up and running. Against Banshees you'll have Turrets and Marines from a Reactor Rax. Against 3 rax or all-in you'll have Marines and Sieged Tanks (lololol). Against Helions you'll have Tanks and Marines (don't line them up please -_-), etc etc. You get the idea - it's really solid.

In this build I generally transition into a super standard TvT. I switch the Reactor Barracks with a Starport and begin producing Vikings and Medivacs, get a Tech Lab on the Barracks and get Stim, keep producing Tanks, build 2 more Reactor Rax and get my Ebay upgrades. I really like this build on mobile maps or against someone I know who is going to fast expand. It's quite solid although you lack a bit of air at the start.

Pros:

===> Super strong vs fast expansion and early bio pressure
===> Gives a solid base for getting an expansion
===> You can transition into whatever you like
===> Strong vs any opening
===> Can provide an early foothold in the game

Cons:

===> No air on the first contain means you don't really do much damage unless he fast expands or blocks his ramp (hi Marines)
===> Can lose initial air control
===> If he does break the contain there's little you can actually do to stop it so you sacrifice quite a bit of supply [I consider it worthwhile though].
===> You need to be comfortable with the idea of containing your opponent ie; being on the offensive rather than the defensive.

Strong build for all stages of the game. It has strengths and weaknesses but overall it's a very balanced idea and, in theory, should enable lower level players to get very strong positions early-game. Definitely recommended.

Opening 6, Your Opponent likes Banshees?

Disclaimer: Never ever, ever try to blind counter Banshees. I recently played a Tournament (BO5) vs a guy who went cloaked Banshees in every game. I lost the first 2 games because it actually did way too damage and then I won the other 3. This build is very targeted but means you'll never lose against Banshee openings (or, well, won't be behind when a Banshee comes). It's pretty basic but I guess you should know anyway.

• Standard opening [12 rax, 13 gas, 15 CC]
• Factory at 100 gas
• Second Refinery
• Build a Starport
• Tech Lab on Factory
• Switch Factory and Starport
• Get a Reactor on the Factory
• Keep producing SCVs, Marines and Depots
• Get a Raven from the Factory followed by a Viking
• Get an expansion at 400 minerals
• Switch the Factory and the Staport and produce Tanks + Vikings (means you're essentially going back to a 1-1-1).
• Kill Banshees (:

Tells for Banshees:

1. Reaper opening
2. Helion opening
3. Tech Lab on Starport
4. Proxy Starport/Factory
5. Guy who only has one opening

So yeah, there's the Raven opening and the DIRECT counter to a Banshee opening. It also enables you to get a relatively standard OC timing. The thing about this build is that it's kinda bad vs standard openings. Like, yeah, you'll have a Raven and a Viking but one Viking will generally not clear up a drop in time and you won't have Tanks out yet which means that if a ground army does get in your kinda ****ed (especially Helions vs 1 Rax Marines). Another thing to note is that Ravens are like sacred Terran units - they're weak as **** and super expensive. If you do get a Raven you don't want it to get sniped stupidly. On the plus side - Ravens are great vs Vikings and Marauders so if the game does reach the mid/late-game then it's actually a really invaluable unit. So it's a decent opening but definitely has its weaknesses. It also doesn't leave much space for an alternative opening other than 1-1-1.

Other

iEchoic

Complete sh*t vs 1-1-1 or bio openings. Very good vs FE openings. Weak vs Thors.

Jinro

The guy is kinda crazy when it comes to strategies and they are planned out to a T. You can have a look at his replays but I wouldn't recommend it.

All-ins

All-ins are always fun but you won't learn anything from them and if you do it all the time you are eventually going to lose. Has very limited use in Tournaments. Recommended when you want to mix things up (:

Mass Air

Since the BC buff I've some across some funky mass air builds. The only solution I've found, so far, is a Raven, Marine and Viking combination. By mass air I'm literally talking about Vikings, Banshees (Cloaked) and Battlecrusiers. It's a cool build but I don't think it's suited to my style. Check it out if you're looking for something new.

Marine/Tank

Marine/Tank only is becoming increasingly popular in Korea but it has its weaknesses especially against the BF/mass mech opening [outlined in Build 4]. I'm not really a fan of it in the late-game but it's definitely super strong in the early/mid-game. Relies upon good harassment, good macro and good upgrades. Leaves little room for alternative transitions.




Well, that's all I got hope this helps give a better insight into Terran builds. I've tried most of them and don't like most of them. You'll see I know others more than some and that's because they are what suit me more. I don't like to have one build and like to enable myself to do alternative transitions. I also hate to be caught off guard by cheese or cloak banshees so they generally have a degree of "safeness" to them. Others are more aggressive, others passive. You can refine or mimc them as you please to suit your playstyle.

As always, hit me up for questions and advice.

poggy

I don't mean to hijack the thread but i have been playing with a build similar to IRL_Sinister's fifth opening, it is strong against terran even with my crappy timing, just wondering if this would be good against protoss with some changes (more maruaders rather than marines ).
I have been using a 3 rax opening against protoss lately with 2 tech labs and one reactor, Im having varying success, however i am getting contained a little with this build.

IRL_Sinister

poggy wrote: »

I don't mean to hijack the thread but i have been playing with a build similar to IRL_Sinister's fifth opening, it is strong against terran even with my crappy timing, just wondering if this would be good against protoss with some changes (more maruaders rather than marines ).
I have been using a 3 rax opening against protoss lately with 2 tech labs and one reactor, Im having varying success, however i am getting contained a little with this build.

It is good. But instead of wanting Marauders get a Raven for Point Defense Drone. It follows the same principle but instead it's a Marine/Tank/Raven combination.

Orizio

Hate to be a pain Sin, but any chance of replays of the hellion drop/siege contain builds?

IRL_Sinister

Yeah I'll get some up later this evening/tomorrow.

poggy wrote: »

I don't mean to hijack the thread but i have been playing with a build similar to IRL_Sinister's fifth opening, it is strong against terran even with my crappy timing, just wondering if this would be good against protoss with some changes (more maruaders rather than marines ).
I have been using a 3 rax opening against protoss lately with 2 tech labs and one reactor, Im having varying success, however i am getting contained a little with this build.

EDIT: Try and get your hands on the ThorzaiN vs Naniwa TSL Final games. He used a very similar build (but more one-base/all-in) specifically used to counter Naniwa's style (2 base Colossi).

EDIT 2: Words can't describe how insightful this is. You should DEFINITELY check it out! You don't need to watch it all just the first few mins. http://tv.esl.eu/de/vod/23001

Orizio

Orizio wrote: »

Hate to be a pain Sin, but any chance of replays of the hellion drop/siege contain builds?

Pleeaaaassseeeee.

If I have to play another two hour long TvT with a million ****ing turrets and battlecruisers then I'll start killing off family members, one by one...

IRL_Sinister

Working on it :>

IRL_Sinister

Sorry for slack: These replays ARE inc I've started saving my TvT openings lately so will rack some more up and then upload them as a pack!

PS: Don't know if Khaz wants to make his build public before the LAN but he has a really nice TvT style so maybe you should get in contact with him about that specific one!

Orizio

Think I have it. Is it the build he did against you a few days ago, when I obs?

Khazidhea

I dont want to make anything public yet :-[

And yeah I played Sinister only once with obs and if Orizio = Feanor (I am always confused with different names on boards\TL\IRC\bnet) then you've probably seen it.