Laws Regarding dB Limits?

Zangetsu

I was at a gig on Sunday and with a a basic app on my phone I measured the dB level near the stage between 90-93dB. Twas a very loud gig for the size of the room!

I was just wondering are there any legally enforced limits to how loud a gig can be in Ireland and whether or not these limits could every realistically be reached in a studio environment?

I've heard of cut off points in clubs where the system will shut off at a certain point, would many studios have this in place also?

Thanks

Obi-Jim

There certainly are laws. Different ones, depending where the closest residence is, time of day/night etc. There are also fines if you get caught exceeding them, venues would set their system up with this taken into consideration (not all in reality, of course), but they'd mostly only be checking at big gigs like the RDS or festivals, unless there are complaints. (Although I have seen the "noise police" in a few different bars up north).

However, I can't recall what any of the limits here are.

There are different scales to measure with too. A, B, and C. You can look these up, but they seem not to make sense sometimes. Like, the one they actually use to measure with here has a HPF on it, so the actual volume allowed is higher than its dBFS equivalent. But 90-93 (although who knows what that means) doesn't sound very high.

The engineer at a festival i was doing at the weekend had a scale and measured my level at 102-104 dB (on one scale) but 98-100 dB on another. He seemed to think that the night time level should be around 98 dB.

I don't think I've actually given you any answers, but sure maybe it's been helpful info

Zangetsu

Definitely useful information there!

Its just out of sheer curiosity that I'm asking, if there are guidelines in place or if there is a general consensus on what a safe working level is for someone in the industry.

So far I've heard anything from 85dB up to 105dB so I guess really depends on the environment in question!

GTE

The EU have work place noise regulations of 87dBA across 8 hours. Any more then that then the employer has to begin letting workers know about and then as it goes up again they have to actively do something to protect workers.

For every 3 dB you go that time span halves.

So, 90dB is 4 hours and 93 is 2 hours of max exposure time before the EU say you are going to get hearing damage and the employer becomes liable. Something similar needs to be done about live venues and sound reproduction over iPods etc. and if there is it needs to be enforced and if it already is it needs reviewing.

This is a subject that I have a lot of interest in as I did myself a lot of hearing damage from doing something completely and utterly stupid and I hold my hands up and say I made a massive mistake. I played drums without earplugs and the 16" Paiste 2oo2 crash cymbal in particular ruined my left ear. Quite bad tinnitus now and I think its getting progressively worse. I always have ear plugs with me but even they can't help 100%. That occasion was the one single time I had forgotten my ear plugs for something at it was that one time that shagged it all up for me.

I think live sound culture in at least Ireland in general is far too loud and whatever forces that make things so loud should be gotten rid of.

In a lot of venues whether its pressure from the venue owner, bands production staff, daft DJ's who don't know what they are doing etc. there is a culture out there to make things loud and think things have to be really pushing the meters.

But the best sounding gig I have ever been at was The Melvins in The Button Factory. They are not exactly a light alternative band now. This is big heavy Big Mufffed guitars and two heavy hitting drummers. The gig was at a decent level. Not quiet but you could easily stand anywhere and not feel like "oh, my ears will be ringing for a couple of days after this". You could even have a conversation with other people if you needed to and dear lord above the bar man could hear your order!
The engineer did an amazing job with the balance etc. Everything could be heard perfectly. It was how live sound should be done.

Then you go to your local pub or club and you you have your ear drums torn off you after a few hours, more then 2 hours I am sure across the space of a night out.


I hear arguments for loudness in The Loudness Wars about how the public don't care if it doesn't sound great or perfect, they want it loud!!!!

But they don't have to care. In general with regards to sound, just as with regards to how an airbag system in a car is designed to work the public are gobsmackingly ignorant. We, as engineers, should be making sure what they hear is appropriate just as engineers who design cars need to make sure they are safe regardless of the drivers know how in the area.
For me having sound waves blasted in at crazy SPL's is just plain stupid and unprofessional on the sound department end of things.

Hearing whats being churned out in the charts which has been compressed to hell and back just so it will compete with other loud tracks because of this horrible fault in humans of perceived to sound better.

madtheory

"dB" makes no sense without a specified reference. I believe in this case we're talking about dB SPL.

Obi-Jim wrote: »

But 90-93 (although who knows what that means) doesn't sound very high.

It usually means dBA, which is an abbreviation of dB SPL with an A weighting. And that's a reasonable on stage level, as long as you take exposure time into account. Look up Noise Induced Hearing Loss, NIHL. As bbk points out, the length of time the ear is exposed to it is as important as the SPL, and distance from the source is also to be considered.

SPL= Sound Pressure Level. The "weighting" is based on the Equal Loudness Contour. Look it up. Wiki is good on this stuff.

Talking about the "loudness war" confuses things, because what's happening there is a reduction in dynamic range, not an increase in SPL. Ultimately the person with their hand on the volume control sets the SPL.

drumdrum

Most gigs are far too loud and cause damage. Proof of the pudding is the sound engineer themselves!!

Half the reason its so loud to start with is that the sound engineer is deaf as a post after being exposed to stupidly high levels day in day out!

IMHO, if you want your gig to sound even better, get your sound engineer to turn down the master out bus by 6db at a minimum and suddenly realise that your audience can now hear the vocals!! From what I understand, the human ear will internally close over as its exposed to high levels over a long time to naturally try to protect the ears. Hence the engineer turns things up and the spiral gets worse!

GTE

madtheory wrote: »

Talking about the "loudness war" confuses things, because what's happening there is a reduction in dynamic range, not an increase in SPL. Ultimately the person with their hand on the volume control sets the SPL.

Yeah, you are right. Underlying what I was saying, and I did not make this at all clear is with less dynamic music its a lot easier to whack the volume up and for someone to "like" it more because of how we perceive things. Very dynamic music with distinct snare hits would be turned lower down on systems by people who knew the song and not played as loud. To be honest I was in such a rant at that stage that it doesnt matter too much

madtheory

With you on the rant thing, but I have to point out that actually the ear (actually I should say "we" as in humans) prefers things to be more dynamic. Good contrast is pleasing. Again it's exposure time. You might like undynamic when you hear it first, but given a small amount of time it gets irritating.

Causes of high SPL at gigs:
1. Ridiculous backline for deaf musos.
2. Backline not pointing at musos head, instead pointing at punters head. Get a stand for your amp!
3. Deaf or unmusical drummers (who will soon be deaf) beating the crap out of the kit.
4. Rubbish room acoustics.

GTE

madtheory wrote: »

With you on the rant thing, but I have to point out that actually the ear (actually I should say "we" as in humans) prefers things to be more dynamic. Good contrast is pleasing. Again it's exposure time. You might like undynamic when you hear it first, but given a small amount of time it gets irritating.

Before leaving the loudness wars for the mp3 age for another thread, the things we hear about record companies finding that the louder songs on jukeboxes were picked more which would then result in the cut of the vinyl being adjusted to start a form of what we are suffering now with the loudness war. Is this just fiction?

I do hate undynanic music but I think the main point is that the overall volume is what is determining the sales. What jumps out as being the louder on MTV wins which is the only thing record companies want. Whether we like dynamic music or not seems to come second after the sale has been made.

Though I do digress, as you say our loss of dynamic range is not causing high SPL but it does contribute having this wall of sound being blasted up the volume knob into teenagers ears.

madtheory

Yes, those surveys exist, but they are flawed. Not enough data taken in over the longer term. A symptom of our short attention spans in this age I guess.

What happens I think is that loud= immediate like, but does not translate into long term like. So you can sell a few singles, but it is not conducive to building a career for the artist.

I think the evidence is there: the majors, who are in love with flawed market research (because money not music is the priority) are dropping like flies, but we have a proliferation of indies selling in their niches, with recordings that are tending towards dynamic. For example, The Wild Beasts' Two Dancers album.

TheBigRedDog

Definately a good point to be made here. I was doing a gig in a pub on Abbey St. a while back and the owner gave out to me for using an amp that was too low powered. I explained to him my reasoning but I don't think he was following me! He was DJing himself afterwards and I couldn't take down my gear without earplugs on, the volume was insane.

Louder is definately better in the ears of the establishment! Poor students (I am one, and I'm deaf already) won't have any hearing by the time they leave college. Every club and gig is FAR too loud and ear plugs can only go so far.

I'm a drummer, same as bbk here, and I did the damage years ago. I'm trying to hold it at at this stage before it gets worse. My audiologist pointed out an interesting fact to me about the tinitus in my ears. The ringing to the left ear is higher pitched than my right. I went home and played my hats and crash and then the ride cymbals... What do you know, it matches!

GTE

TheBigRedDog wrote: »

I'm a drummer, same as bbk here, and I did the damage years ago. I'm trying to hold it at at this stage before it gets worse. My audiologist pointed out an interesting fact to me about the tinitus in my ears. The ringing to the left ear is higher pitched than my right. I went home and played my hats and crash and then the ride cymbals... What do you know, it matches!

My God, just thinking about the crashes I have and how I would have set them up then and bang on! I can match the ringing to the cymbal.

drumdrum

Im a drummer too, and the best thing I ever bought was a decent set of in-ear monitors. Expensive enough at about €300 for the basic model, but they do wonders for your hearing both on stage and in the studio.

You can still hear everything on stage fairly fine (in fact better I'd say, though maybe a little more bass heavy which is not always a bad thing depending on your band) and I find that it makes you play a bit quieter which is a good thing live. I means the guitarists and bassist dont crank up to compete with you, and the singer can actually be heard! :O

GTE

drumdrum wrote: »

Im a drummer too, and the best thing I ever bought was a decent set of in-ear monitors. Expensive enough at about €300 for the basic model, but they do wonders for your hearing both on stage and in the studio.

You can still hear everything on stage fairly fine (in fact better I'd say, though maybe a little more bass heavy which is not always a bad thing depending on your band) and I find that it makes you play a bit quieter which is a good thing live. I means the guitarists and bassist dont crank up to compete with you, and the singer can actually be heard! :O

I used in ear headphones before and I found I tended to crank the volume during normal listening more then when I used standard over ear headphones. Apparently it some way the ear works. It gets used to the volume and because the outer ear is not being used properly louder things seem quieter.

I then found out that they were pushing out 100dBA at 3 quarter volume so I scared myself off them.

Do these act as heavy duty ear defenders also? I would be interested in them again if I knew I wasn't in danger.

Robert Mullen

Actually a research area of mine.

Here's a good link to a good document:
http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Occupational_Health/The_Noise_of_Music.html

Consult the 2007 Safety,Health and Welfare at work regulations too.

Rob