Softening hard-water supply

DublinWriter

We live in an area of Meath with an uber-hard water supply.

Not only does this make the water taste pretty foul, it also f*cks up the appliances and plays havoc with the wife's eczema.

Are there any solutions that can be installed to soften the water as it comes into the house?

aah yes

DublinWriter wrote: »

We live in an area of Meath with an uber-hard water supply.

Not only does this make the water taste pretty foul, it also f*cks up the appliances and plays havoc with the wife's eczema.

Are there any solutions that can be installed to soften the water as it comes into the house?

Google water softener and you should find a number of companies offering whole house water softeners at prices from 300 to 900 euros.

At the 300 end you normally get timer minicabs lasting 5 or 10 years using a lot of salt, although a few high capacity volumetric softeners lasting 30 to 40 years and using half the salt, are often on sale from these prices worth watching out for.

The best come in from 600 to 900, still worth avoiding timer / Chinese sounding units and go for the US made with 10 year warranty supplied by the top firms.

Lars

DublinWriter wrote: »

We live in an area of Meath with an uber-hard water supply.

Not only does this make the water taste pretty foul, it also f*cks up the appliances and plays havoc with the wife's eczema.

Are there any solutions that can be installed to soften the water as it comes into the house?

Get your water tested(Euro Environmental in drogheda do it) and make sure that whatever system you're buying can cope with whatever contaminants are in it. Might seem obvious but I've had a lot of problems with a system that cost me about 2k(includes RO drinking water) nearly 4 years ago and I'm still getting iron and lime in my water. Its wrecking my head. It worked properly for about 6 months when they changed the mineral in the big blue bottle(for only €300!!) and then it stopped again. Just about to contact them again but I'm considering approaching another company which will obviously cost me more money. Just be careful that it'll do what you require and research well

Lars

gws wrote: »

Google water softener and you should find a number of companies offering whole house water softeners at prices from 300 to 900 euros.

At the 300 end you normally get timer minicabs lasting 5 or 10 years using a lot of salt, although a few high capacity volumetric softeners lasting 30 to 40 years and using half the salt, are often on sale from these prices worth watching out for.

The best come in from 600 to 900, still worth avoiding timer / Chinese sounding units and go for the US made with 10 year warranty supplied by the top firms.

Hi GWS, you seem to know about this stuff. Are you in the business because I'd like to run the specifics of my problem past someone who knows what they're talking about?

aah yes

Hi Lars

Sorry for delay, please message me and I will be able to answer any questions.

I run a distribution business supplying water treatment systems for domestic and commercial applications in Ireland and supply systems to and advise most of the larger water treatment companies, also I can take technical enquiries from the public.

Sounds like you have had some problems with a well water system. Most established companies should supply a 5 to 10 year warranty for well systems, with the option of warranty extensions, all on the condition that the manufacturer's operating conditions are met, putting in salt, checking timers, keeping systems protected from frost, checking for household leaks, that sort of thing.

Normally unless a system has been really abused through high leakage rates through toilets or a lack of salt topped up in bins etc, the swap out of cylinders should be covered under warranty. Depending on the system whether a carbon unit with short interval replacments in some cases, longer on milder waters, to water softeners which can last up to 30 years on wells before resin change, a major stage in the system like iron removal should never require swap out in 6 months.

Iron has a 0.2 ppm, or 0.2 mg/l, or 200 ug/l safe water concentration limit or parametric value, and many iron systems should be able to cope up to 8 ppm, or 8 mg/l beyond this, costs go up and systems get more robust, larger, more complicated.

However, iron systems coupled with settling tanks can be made to deal with up to 100 ppm of iron or 100,000 ug/l if correctly designed and operating conditions are clearly highlighted. Often plain water softeners are put on wells with high iron, and prematurely fail when iron levels are way too high, also the wrong controls for iron wells like the old Autotrol 255 440 valves are used which do not like dirty water brining with fixed cycles unsuited to the cycle requirements of many iron medias.

Well water treatment is often a very fine art on tough wells and there are only really an handful of gifted installers dealing with the worse wells and getting excellent results, and then thousands of plumbers that simply have zero clue how to tackle a well.

Send me your water analyses of the raw water conditions and I can explain on the forum here what equipment is needed and break down each stage and why certain items are needed, sizing and calibration settings advised for.

cheers, gws

Lars

Hi gws, thanks for the reply. I recently got a quote from another installer who specified completely different equipment to what I have and from my discussion with him, he seemed to know his stuff. It appears that my original supplier gave me a 'one size fits all' solution. I did send them my original test results which are included here, as they requested these. I had a candid discussion with them the other day and they've offered to come out and change the head on my blue bottle and replace it for a larger one. I think they're also going to change the mineral. I'm a bit pi$$ed off that they requested I go to the expense of testing and then hadn't got a clue what theyre looking at. They've requested that I do yet another retest, so I asked them was the solution they originally specified not tailored to solve my specific problem, in which case why isnt it working. Anyway, I would appreciate your input. Thanks. Also, I never discussed warranty with them but I assume I'd be wasting my time looking for a refund after 4 years, although theyve been out on more than 1 occasion trying to solve the problem??? I think their primary business is well drilling and they do the water treatment as a side business. In brief, they sold me a system comprised of 1 blue bottle(the smaller of the two sizes I believe) and a salt bin. They eventually came and replaced the mineral at a cost of €300 after which my problem appeared to be solved for about 7~8months. Anyway, they dont seem to have much of a clue now

Thanks

L

aah yes

Lars wrote: »

Hi gws, thanks for the reply. I recently got a quote from another installer who specified completely different equipment to what I have and from my discussion with him, he seemed to know his stuff. It appears that my original supplier gave me a 'one size fits all' solution. I did send them my original test results which are included here, as they requested these. I had a candid discussion with them the other day and they've offered to come out and change the head on my blue bottle and replace it for a larger one. I think they're also going to change the mineral. I'm a bit pi$$ed off that they requested I go to the expense of testing and then hadn't got a clue what theyre looking at. They've requested that I do yet another retest, so I asked them was the solution they originally specified not tailored to solve my specific problem, in which case why isnt it working. Anyway, I would appreciate your input. Thanks. Also, I never discussed warranty with them but I assume I'd be wasting my time looking for a refund after 4 years, although theyve been out on more than 1 occasion trying to solve the problem??? I think their primary business is well drilling and they do the water treatment as a side business. In brief, they sold me a system comprised of 1 blue bottle(the smaller of the two sizes I believe) and a salt bin. They eventually came and replaced the mineral at a cost of €300 after which my problem appeared to be solved for about 7~8months. Anyway, they dont seem to have much of a clue now

Thanks

L

First thing to ask is where the water test came from. Is it INAB (Irish National Accreditation Board) approved or HSE, or both ?

Probably not by the look of it. Is it accurate ?

It has most of the important stuff tested though, ...

Colour is massively high if the units are 33 mg/l in PtCo units (Platinum Cobalt) test method. I've dealt with higher from 100 to 300 mg/l, but 33 is pretty strong and a normal 10x54 activated carbon cylinder won't last long.

This level needs an Anion based resin colour removal system, like a softener, using salt, but costing less to run than carbon swap outs, a lot less. But dearer to install, one of the dearest water treatment cylinders on the market, often 900 to 1500 euros fitted.


Turbidity is high enough at 13.30 NTU (Nephelometric Turbidity Units) but this can be an expression of the oxidised or precipitated iron which acts exactly like turbidity and can be part of the turbidity value unless pre-screened which would be hard to separate and get a true turbidity figure.

Turbidity needs to be less than 1 NTU in treated water or I prefer less than 0.5 NTU or lower for effective use of Ultraviolet systems that will not work well with turbidity. Deal wit Iron treatment first and then re-test for turbidity to see if a dedicated system is required for this. Don't go just spending 800 euros on a 10x54 Filter AG turbidity removal system if it is not needed, and iron turbidity is just the issue here.

pH 7.2 - this seems okay. A better test for water aggressiveness is calculating the Langelier Saturation Index from pH, alkalinity, hardness and water temperature. 7.2 pH can act like 6 pH or less in certain reduced alkalinity/hardness low temperture conditions. pH is also a factor in determining the correct type of iron removal media for some types of media, also (especially) for manganese removal (which I see was not tested on the report??) Any black spots or stains in your water ?

Iron is high at 916 ug/l at 4 and a half times the limit. Levels of over 8,000 or 10,000 are very tough to deal with by many installers, not a job for joe soap plumber, but 1,000 is not a tough job. 100,000 ug/l can be tackled with larger systems with pre-settlement but you get these once every 5 or ten years as a regular installer.

With the hardness at 323 mg/l and iron at 916 ug/l as a low cost offering I would say a Lanxess S1567 iron resin based softener is the lower cost choice at a thousand euro fitted or abouts, but a more effective two stage system would be a 10x54 Birm iron removal system (okay with 7.2 pH) followed by a standard 10x54 water softener, or better still a 10x54 Lanxess S1567 resin softener for 1800 euros fitted - should be perfect water with 10 years before a minor service.

No sign of testing for Hydrogen Sulphide so I assume no rotten eggs smells ?

Ammonium should be listed as NH4 but the report states Ammonia (should be NH3) but N stated ? The incorrect limit reporting value is listed as 0.23 mg/l which should be 0.3 mg/l NH3 by European Directives and HSE / EPA parametric testing values, so this report seems spurious from an unrecognised source, but if they are just reporting Ammonia gas as N then the figure 0.23 may be lower. However the value is coming in as 0.73 Ammonia, would be higher then as Ammonium probably over 0.8 + so over three times the safe EU limit.

Ammonium / Ammonia is also easily dealt with by a Lanxess S1567 media without having to resort to Sodium Alumino Silicate crystal based medias like CR200 which are notoriously expensive to buy, expensive to service and very hard on salt at 50% plus usage, they also have far higher levels of failing if not correctly set up and serviced which many installers fail to do. The use of a drinking water filter like an RO (reverse osmosis) filter is always best used after a well to avoid buying bottled water, and to polish up to perfection an excellent quality of drinking water after correct pre-treatment (or primary treatment of whole house water) by the larger systems installed in the shed.

Aluminium okay, Conductivity okay, Nitrite okay. All heavy metals not tested such as Arsenic, Lead, Cadmium, Nickel etc, so go for an RO system and these will be covered. Good to know still what heavy metals you have in your well, as these are the most long term destructive toxins to the body, so why are they not tested for ?

No sign of the presence of bacteria at this stage, but lab testing conditions need to be the finest for bacteria testing, and the report offered does not seem to be up to scratch, so may be worth re-checking with the HSE, INAB labs. Also bacteria is the most variable parameter along with colour and sulphide depending on seasonal rainfall, weather etc. Always good to test September through to December on wells.

As a private well has no guarantee of ground water protection from ingress of bacteria it is always a good idea to put an ultraviolet sterliser on every well if budget allows, as bacteria is the first thing that is going to get you ill.

All other parameters act long term with usually no significant short term issues noticed, and if high are often identified one way or other by the senses, either smell or taste, (except many heavy metals - especially the most toxic - lead and Arsenic common in many wells).

So a water re-test from an accredited lab is advised here I would say. Galway UCHG Public Analysts are probably recognised as the best in the country, and do low cost testing to the public at subsidised rates also the odd free retesting if you have an existing test done and want a follow up.

Lars

Hi gws,
Thanks for that. A lot to absorb there. I'll have to read it when I Have more time (away from the kids) and I'm sure I'll have more questions. my test was from euro environmental in drogheda and I was directed there by my supplier. Also I do get intermittent sewage-like smells from my tap water. Thanks v much for ur input.
Just to add, the water from my (5 stage) RO unit tastes crap. I complained a bit initially but was offered an additional device( don't remember what) for a few hundred quid with no guarantee of it working.

L

Lars

Hi Gws,
We dont really drink the water from my RO unit because it tastes like pi$$. Its just used for the kettle. I went through this at length with my supplier and they said that it was most likely working fine and that nothing could really be done for it. Its a 5 stage unit. They did offer some additional device at a cost if I remember correctly but there was no guarantee that it would work so we buy bottled for drinking.
w.r.t. managnese, I've no black spots or staining that I can see in my water.
There is an intermittent sewage(rotten egg maybe) smell from my main tap so I assume that needs to be resolved.
I use my cold tap water for cooking so I am concerned about heavy metals etc and any possible contaminants that could be in it. I have young kids. I thought it would just contain salt post treatment and the RO system was to remove that before drinking.
My existing system is an Autotrol 255 440i mounted on a blue bottle(the shorter of the two sizes available I believe) and a salt bucket.
What does colour mean? Is it harmful? Does it contribue to the brown iron staining I'm getting in my cistern etc.. or is worth buying an anion based system for
I'm going to get tests done by Galway UCHG Public Analysts as you recommend but what exactly do I ask them to test for?
Also, my treatment system is in my small utility area so space is a concern althought if its space Vs cost I'll just have to work that out.

I was recently quoted for this system

---

10x54 Birm unit (for the removal of 70% iron in the water)
10x54 CR200 (for the removal of the remaining iron and hardness in the water)
10x54 Carbon unit (for the removal of sulphor and any remaining colour in the water)
Whole house Ultra violet light (to kill all forms of bacteria in the water)

---

The guy said he could probably reuse the autotrol head to save me a few quid if I wanted.

Do you think this would do the job and if theres any toxics would it remove them?

Thanks

L

aah yes

Hi Lars,

If you have an intermittent rotten egg smell it is likely to be hydrogen sulphide in low levels probably 0.1 mg/l to 0.5 mg/l. This can be tackled by using 3 to 6 kgs of KDF 85 media in your water softener / S1567 or CR200 unit.

There is no salt in softened water despite the the belief of many plumbers. Salt is sodium chloride and at its lowest levels is only detected by the tongue at around 2,000 to 3,000 mg/l.

Softened water has no chloride which is the salty tasting part of sodium chloride. The trace level of sodium it does contain is at around bottled water levels or a third of that found in supermarket milk (300 to 500 mg/l) , at say 70 to 150 mg/l.

The strict EU / EPA / HSE levels for sodium in drinking water are based on a minimum of 200 mg/l, stricter than that found in milk and many other common beverages.

Colour is harmless, it is only due to naturally occuring tannins (such as the tannins found in tea and red wine) but not in your case. Essentially tannins are the juices extracted from plants, or the colouring drawn off from dead vegetation, they are harmless organic acids usually humic or fulvic - google "tannins".

Iron staining is a separate issue altogether and not to be confused with tannins or colour, see one of my recent posts on boards in the plumbing section - the thread "water purification" - I think ?

Ask the UCHG labs to do a full "Audit Test" this covers all 20 odd chemical parameters but not the bacteria.

Avoid using the Autotrol head altogether, you will probably end up with problems in the end with a well water system using an Autotrol 255 440i, especially with iron - its the wrong valve for that - (it has a raw water brining path - instead of clean water brining, so injectors and other parts of the brine channel end up getting blocked with iron along with the air check getting fouled etc, plus it is not programmable for the cycle selection needed for iron removal).

Try Celtic Water Solutions for this type of unit, you can call either Derek or Malachy both very decent chaps.

aah yes

Remember ...

" Colour is massively high if the units are 33 mg/l in PtCo units (Platinum Cobalt) test method. I've dealt with higher from 100 to 300 mg/l, but 33 is pretty strong and a normal 10x54 activated carbon cylinder won't last long.

This level needs an Anion based resin colour removal system, like a softener, using salt, but costing less to run than carbon swap outs, a lot less. But dearer to install, one of the dearest water treatment cylinders on the market, often 900 to 1500 euros fitted. "


So don;t just rely on a carbon unit from year to year to deal with 33 mg/l strength in colour. Use an anion resin 10x54 system also, to be sure.

Lars

Thanks Gws. The system I posted was from dave at CWS. Can you tell me, with proper treatment as you've detailed would my RO unit give me water that tastes OK? and also, how many blue bottles does that work out at. As far as I can see it could be
1 for 70% iron removal
1 for hardness and remaining iron removal
1 to deal with colour
+ salt bin + UV unit for bacteria
is that about right?

thanks again
L

aah yes

Lars wrote: »

Thanks Gws. The system I posted was from dave at CWS. Can you tell me, with proper treatment as you've detailed would my RO unit give me water that tastes OK? and also, how many blue bottles does that work out at. As far as I can see it could be
1 for 70% iron removal
1 for hardness and remaining iron removal
1 to deal with colour
+ salt bin + UV unit for bacteria
is that about right?

thanks again
L

First 10x54 unit Birm will easily deal with 100% iron removal well below 200 mg/l (probably a tenth of this limit to undetectable figures)

Second 10x54 Lanxess S1567 (or CR200) 100% hardness removal and a back up iron polisher on very heavy water use or if toilets seep a little and you are slow at spotting a dripping toilet. (Toilets can really sap the capacity of iron systems, so it is no harm to have secondary polishing for iron.) With salt bin.

Third 10x54 carbon GAC, (will not last all year round for your colour strength at 33 mg/l but may be worth giving a go and see how long the carbon lasts) then look at anion system as an option later because they are dear to buy, but better value on the long run for servicing costs if colour is strong all year round. With salt bin. Carbon system - no salt bin. (Colour varies widely year round, it is a variable parametric unit based on weather year to year and rainfall).

Forth system - UV system with 5 micron pre-filter.


If your old RO is giving stale tasting water, check it is not fouled with iron in the membrane housing, or contaminated - do a bacteria test from the filter tap.

Might be worth getting a new 5 stage RO as part of a package, thats when they come at the cheapest prices, usually half the usual cost.

aah yes

Ask for extra KDF 85 as a polishing agent for bad odours like rotten egg smells - this can be added to the Lanxess S1567 media system for around 100 to 200 euros.

For bacteria testing use the UCHG microbiological testing lab, tests are 30 euros for E.coli and Coliforms.

WhatNowForUs?

Hi,

Have you thought of a Rainharvesting System, It might work better.

aah yes

To calculate for a rainwater system, you need to check your area on the MET rainfall map - usually 1 m3 (1 cubic metre or 1000 litres) per square metre of roof area rainfall per year (west of Ireland figure) and assess the number of occupants using water in the household.

If say you had 200 square metres of collectable water on a good size roof area, and if it rained consistently evenly over the period of a year, week to week, you could just about sustain a fanily of three or four occupants at a push.

As rain falls in bursts over some wet months, followed by months of no rainfall at times, you have to look at calculated storage size. Commonly I see many of the largest 10,000 gallon or 45,000 litre purpose built - shuttered underground raintanks drying up every other year with plenty of roof area encatchment, supplying average sized families, so rainwater alone will not be a guaranteed feed alone.

To build a 10,000 gallon / 45,000 litre tank you are into a budget of often 5,000 to 10,000 euros after tank, retrofitted or newly fitted downpipe link ups, sand trap or pre-filter screen chamber, and then post treatment depending how much of the work you do yourself, and then no guarantee of continuous water feed.

Even the small 5,000 litre tanks, nearly a tenth of the large shuttered tanks only often feed enough water for a fortnight once filled, once you calculate the bottom pick up pipe in the tank and bottom volume lost, versus top water cut off level, and overall net size fill. These small 5,000 litre tank projects supplied and fitted start to finish can often end up costing up to 10,000 euros, with a minor percentage 20% to 30% water supplied to the house under good rain conditions, with the provisor of having a mains or well feed giving the remaining 70% to 80% supply.

Payback of the average rainwater system, allowing for annual service costs of water treatment systems, (backwashing carbon units, also UV and prefilters) can mean a 100 year payback or longer compared to the entry level costs of a metered mains water feed. Maybe 50 years or less, if metered mains water charges start to double or treble.

WhatNowForUs?

DublinWriter wrote: »

We live in an area of Meath with an uber-hard water supply.

Not only does this make the water taste pretty foul, it also f*cks up the appliances and plays havoc with the wife's eczema.

Are there any solutions that can be installed to soften the water as it comes into the house?

Do you have the area of your roof plan?

applicant

Hi

I have recently moved into rented accommodation. We receive our water from a well and I have found there is a problem with limescale in the kettle. My skin and hair have become are very dry and there are a few other problems (clothes don't wash very well etc). I would really like to sort this. I don't really want to add salt to the water (I've heard it's not good to drink once the salt has been added) so I would prefer to look into ion exchange. As we are only renting the place we want to spend as little as possible. Also I wouldn't have a clue about the installation etc. Would anyone have any recommendations?

Thanks!!

heinbloed

Get the water tested, there should be a test done anyhow every year. Ask the landlord for the results, the test protocol/report of the previous tests.

Adding salt means to employe an ion exchange.

Would rainwater (the barrel) be a cheap solution ?

Lars

applicant wrote: »

Hi
I don't really want to add salt to the water (I've heard it's not good to drink once the salt has been added) so I would prefer to look into ion exchange.

Hi Applicant,
I brew beer with my water so I have had some concerns about the amount of salt after softening. I'm hoping GWS can come back with some links or a good explanation because as I understand it, the softener doesnt simply add salt to soften the water. Theres a 'mineral' of some sort in the blue bottle. This mineral removes the hardness somehow! The system then periodically rinses that mineral with a solution of salty water suppied by the salt bin. As far as I know the system then flushes the mineral with more untreated water to rinse excess salt down the drain. I'm not sure if the system actually adds much salt at all and I havent been able to find too much info on this on the web. My system originally used more that 1 bag of salt per week for these rinses and still didnt work properly. My installer eventually changed the mineral in the blue bottle and my system now uses about 1 to 1.5 bags per month I'd say, maybe even less, and the water is softened to a much higher standard. I've very little signs of hardness or iron in my water now. So with the change of mineral the amount of salt I'm supplying to my system reduced dramatically. I'm not sure its putting much salt in my water at all....

On thing I will say is make sure your installer fully understands the problem and the solution before you part with money. Mines not quite 100% now but it took a few years of my suppier 'fumbling around' with different solutions to get where I am. You can get a proper hardness test done by a public analysts lab and be sure that your installer guarantes you that the system he quotes you will solve the problems that the analysis indicates. I've had quite a major pain in the a$$ trying to get mine sorted.


L