could a non believer pray to the Pope

Resend

I read about the nun who says she was cured of parkinsons by praying to the Pope. And i wondered if a non believer could pray for health. Would they have to believe and if so in what? In the Pope or the God he represents?

It is a genuine question and no offence is intended to believers

ger vallely

Might be just my opinion but surely one would have to believe to expect the 'miracle.'There must be a million belief systems out there with 'curers' and so on. Maybe a person could try them all out and hope to get lucky!

Resend

ger vallely wrote: »

Might be just my opinion but surely one would have to believe to expect the 'miracle.'There must be a million belief systems out there with 'curers' and so on. Maybe a person could try them all out and hope to get lucky!

iagree but believe in what ? In the Pope or God.? It is easy for anyone to believe in the Pope as he has been here and seen. But believing in God is not possible for everyone. Or is it all a question of belief..... in anything

Quo Vadis

Resend wrote: »

I read about the nun who says she was cured of parkinsons by praying to the Pope. And i wondered if a non believer could pray for health. Would they have to believe and if so in what? In the Pope or the God he represents?

It is a genuine question and no offence is intended to believers

I take it at the moment you are an agnostic.

If you’re asking this in all sincerity, then first I would advise you to ask regularly with a fully open and sincere mind to be guided to the faith.

Don't expect a quick intervention, it may take years, remember God very seldom acts directly and uses many ways and means, not all of which are obvious at the time. Remember there is no irrefutable proof that God does or does not exist, that's the whole point, he gives you the free will to choose your belief.

The first step is to ask yourself that in an infinity, is it infinitely possible that a sprit like God exists ?

Then study the historical Jesus, and you will learn that most serious historians and scholars agree that Jesus did exist, but obviously not all of them believe he was God.

Then study for yourself the Gospels and teachings of Jesus Christ, and ask yourself was Jesus actually bad, or mad, or could he have been telling the truth ?

Then ask yourself apart from poverty, persecution and death, what did the first apostles and followers of Jesus have to gain ?

This is not a short journey your asking about, this is a very long one.

Below is an excellent resource, which also covers the common questions regarding the scriptures and Catholicism, and the early practices and beliefs of Christians.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

And remember, for every single argument against theism and Catholicism, there is always a balanced counter argument.

God Bless you on your journey.

Resend

Quo Vadis wrote: »

I take it at the moment you are an agnostic.

If you’re asking this in all sincerity, then first I would advise you to ask regularly with a fully open and sincere mind to be guided to the faith.

Don't expect a quick intervention, it may take years, remember God very seldom acts directly and uses many ways and means, not all of which are obvious at the time. Remember there is no irrefutable proof that God does or does not exist, that's the whole point, he gives you the free will to choose your belief.

The first step is to ask yourself that in an infinity, is it infinitely possible that a sprit like God exists ?

Then study the historical Jesus, and you will learn that most serious historians and scholars agree that Jesus did exist, but obviously not all of them believe he was God.

Then study for yourself the Gospels and teachings of Jesus Christ, and ask yourself was Jesus bad, or mad or could he have been telling the truth ?

Then ask yourself apart from poverty, persecution and death, what did the first apostles and followers of Jesus have to gain ?

This is not a short journey your asking about, this is a very long one.

Below is an excellent resource, which also covers the early practices and beliefs of Christians.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

And remember, for every balanced argument against theism and Catholicism, there is always a balanced counter argument.

God Bless you on your journey.

thanks yes it is a sincere question

Donatello

Of course. If you do pray for the intercession of Blessed Pope John Paul II for a specific intention, stick to him. Otherwise, if there is a miracle, it is impossible to discern by whose intercession it took place if you've been praying for a specific intention to the entire Litany of Saints!

noel farrell

my advice go direct pray to god the father through his son jesus

FISMA

A careful reading of the New Testament demonstrates that being healed required faith on the part of the believer.

Jesus did not walk around town like a magician and cure everyone of everything. Poof! You're cured, now do you believe in me - is NOT the way things happened.

How many times did he say words to the effect of your faith has saved you?

If you do not believe, then why would you pray? Would the prayer mean anything? You could of course pay lip service, but that would be meaningless.

One cannot pray for something in which they do not truly believe and expect the outcome.

Concisely: if you do not believe, you will not be healed.

Donatello

FISMA wrote: »

A careful reading of the New Testament demonstrates that being healed required faith on the part of the believer.

Jesus did not walk around town like a magician and cure everyone of everything. Poof! You're cured, now do you believe in me - is NOT the way things happened.

How many times did he say words to the effect of your faith has saved you?

If you do not believe, then why would you pray? Would the prayer mean anything? You could of course pay lip service, but that would be meaningless.

One cannot pray for something in which they do not truly believe and expect the outcome.

Concisely: if you do not believe, you will not be healed.

What about yer man let down through the roof? Wasn't it his mates' faith that the Lord saw?

Praying presupposes faith, so a non-Catholic could pray for JPII's intercession.

But even if the praying person was not sincere, God could still act. One thinks of St. Genesius, an actor, who mocked baptism on stage, and was converted by the grace of God! So even when he was taking the mick, God was able to act in his life there and then. But of course, one should not mock prayer any more than one should mock God.

Saint Genesius of Rome (died c. 286 or c. 303) Genesius was an actor who worked in a series of plays that mocked Christianity. One day while performing in a work that made fun of Baptism he received sudden wisdom from God, realized the truth of Christianity, and had a conversion experience on stage. He announced his new faith, and refused to renounce it, even when ordered to do so by emperor Diocletian. He is the patron saint of actors, against epilepsy, attorneys, barristers, clowns, comedians, comediennes, comics, converts, dancers, epileptics, lawyers, musicians, printers, stenographers, and torture victims.

noel farrell

i think the mere fact that the man or woman would pray at all shows some faith . why the would pray to a dead man , and not to the living god escapes me . or ask a living believer or the elders of a church to intercede for them god bless

Raze_them_all

How could you pray to something you don't believe exists as a non believer?

annascott

Resend wrote: »

I read about the nun who says she was cured of parkinsons by praying to the Pope. And i wondered if a non believer could pray for health. Would they have to believe and if so in what? In the Pope or the God he represents?

It is a genuine question and no offence is intended to believers

I have never heard of anyone praying to the pope (small 'p' intended) before. Isn't that like praying to a priest or a vicar? I would have thought that people pray to 'God' or Allah or whoever it is that they believe in. They say that prayer is the last refuge of the damned. When faced with horrific disease or disability most of us would let a witch doctor shake bones at us if we thought it would help.

PDN

Raze_them_all wrote: »

How could you pray to something you don't believe exists as a non believer?

In the same way that you could pray to someone whose legitimacy is supposedly entirely derived from something you don't believe exists?

keano_afc

OP, dont waste your time praying to a dead sinner. If you need healing or special favour, pray directly to God. He hears your prayer and loves you.

I have never received an explanation from a member of the RC church as to why they believe "intercession" from a dead person is neccessary. It grieves me that they dont trust God or His son's death on the cross as a propitiation for sin.

Donatello

keano_afc wrote: »

OP, dont waste your time praying to a dead sinner. If you need healing or special favour, pray directly to God. He hears your prayer and loves you.

I have never received an explanation from a member of the RC church as to why they believe "intercession" from a dead person is neccessary. It grieves me that they dont trust God or His son's death on the cross as a propitiation for sin.

Pardon me, but saints are alive with God in Christ Jesus. Those who are in heaven have had their sins forgiven and have been perfected in charity.

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

I'm not quite sure how you are in a position to judge the faith of other people whom you do not even know, nor discern that they do not trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

keano_afc

Donatello wrote: »

Pardon me, but saints are alive with God in Christ Jesus. Those who are in heaven have had their sins forgiven and have been perfected in charity.

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

I'm not quite sure how you are in a position to judge the faith of other people whom you do not even know, nor discern that they do not trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

This I dont doubt. But the are not omnipresent and cant hear our prayers. No scripture will support this. Where did I judge other people's faith? All I said was that intercession is not neccessary for the forgiveness of sin. If it was, Christ did not need to die on the cross.

See, I still dont get an answer!

FISMA

Donatello wrote: »

What about yer man let down through the roof? Wasn't it his mates' faith that the Lord saw?
Praying presupposes faith, so a non-Catholic could pray for JPII's intercession.

Good point. The account is somewhat quiet on the paralytic's faith. However, I would think that when Jesus saw "their faith." The paralytic was included.

Point being - Jesus was not a magician. If you did not have faith in him, you were not cured.

Furthermore, this is true of the dead, just ask Lazarus!

"I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who believes in Me shall live, even if he dies.

Belief is the key.

Quo Vadis

keano_afc wrote: »

This I dont doubt. But the are not omnipresent and cant hear our prayers. No scripture will support this. Where did I judge other people's faith? All I said was that intercession is not neccessary for the forgiveness of sin. If it was, Christ did not need to die on the cross.

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Donatello

keano_afc wrote: »

This I dont doubt. But the are not omnipresent and cant hear our prayers. No scripture will support this. Where did I judge other people's faith? All I said was that intercession is not neccessary for the forgiveness of sin. If it was, Christ did not need to die on the cross.

See, I still dont get an answer!

The fella who started this thread asked about intercession for a special favour, not the forgiveness of sin.

FISMA

Donatello wrote: »

The fella who started this thread asked about intercession for a special favour, not the forgiveness of sin.

To the OP, sorry if this sounds harsh, it is not meant to, hence I will end this sentence with a smiley face !

God is a not a wishing well where you can peg a penny into the fountain and say what the heck have I to lose?

Believing is a matter of faith. If you truly believe, you have faith in God.

Just saying the words can be meaningless as well.

The words are not some Harry-Potter for grown ups spell that are magic in and of themselves.

There's something far deeper, beyond the realm of the natural world, going on.

When I figure it out, I'll post more!;)

Donatello

Sometimes it may be God's will that we struggle through an illness with trust in God, rather than working a miracle of healing. In the struggle we can become a saint, we can be purified if we suffer redemptively - uniting our suffering with Christ's, and making reparation for our sins.

keano_afc

Quo Vadis wrote: »

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Copied and pasted like a true Catholic. Seeing as you are unfamiliar with symbolism, I can see how you would misinterpret that verse. The offerings there are REPRESENTATIVE of our prayers, as it was in Old Testament times. As I've said before, if the dead in heaven could hear and pass on our prayers, Jesus death would be unneccessary. Is that what you believe?

keano_afc

Donatello wrote: »

The fella who started this thread asked about intercession for a special favour, not the forgiveness of sin.

Swings and roundabouts. Intercession is not neccessary at all as far as I can see from scripture.

Donatello

keano_afc wrote: »

Copied and pasted like a true Catholic. Seeing as you are unfamiliar with symbolism, I can see how you would misinterpret that verse. The offerings there are REPRESENTATIVE of our prayers, as it was in Old Testament times. As I've said before, if the dead in heaven could hear and pass on our prayers, Jesus death would be unneccessary. Is that what you believe?

Dead people in heaven? Heaven is for the living, not the dead.

keano_afc

Donatello wrote: »

Dead people in heaven? Heaven is for the living, not the dead.

Dead in body. Alive in Christ, but not omnipresent and able to hear our prayers. There is no disputing this.

Quo Vadis

keano_afc wrote: »

Copied and pasted like a true Catholic. Seeing as you are unfamiliar with symbolism, I can see how you would misinterpret that verse. The offerings there are REPRESENTATIVE of our prayers, as it was in Old Testament times. As I've said before, if the dead in heaven could hear and pass on our prayers, Jesus death would be unneccessary. Is that what you believe?

Catholics have the one doctrine.

Have you never heard the phrase “put in a good word for me” ?

Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have. That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints

In addition are the countless documented miracles specifically by asking the saints to assist us in representing our petitions to God, and in the apportions of our Lady, she has always asked for our prayers.

eyescreamcone

Pray to the Pope (any one of over 250) or the cookie monster, saints, ghosts - holy and unholy...
it's all the same... a waste of time.

I wonder what % of prayers since this praying lark was invented have actually been answered or are you going with the Garth Brooks line of "I thank god for unanswered prayers".

Better off praying to the cookie monster ... and every week when the wife comes home with the shopping ... a miracle ... more biscuits.
Santo subito.
St. C. Monster of custard cream!!!

Spoon Fed

OP, its just a placebo affect

Fanny Cradock

Both of you can take it to the A&A forum

alex73

As someone who had met Pope JPII 3 times in Rome I would pray to him. He was a deeply holy man, his papacy was foretold by Sr. Faustina and Padre Pio. Gifts that he gave to me and my wife we have lent to people in hospitals around Ireland, who have woken from comas or recovered. I'm not saying they are miracles, but as a Catholic I believe he is in Heaven and in the presence of God intercedes for those who ask him.

I have seen many people who have no faith who in their darkest hours have prayed and received help.. To each their own. If you don't want to pray, then don't, But don't ridicule the faith of others.