Developer's "shock" at NAMA action

Slideshowbob

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/grehan-tells-of-shock-as-nama-calls-in-receivers-2631795.html

Poor Ray is in shock

Well Ray were you not really in shock when your site values plummeted a few years back?

How do you think house buyers were shocked when realising the real values of units you sold them?

I'd love to see the memorandum of understanding he refers to

Cheek of him owing so much

Get up the yard! Another failed developer

jmayo

Slideshowbob wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/grehan-tells-of-shock-as-nama-calls-in-receivers-2631795.html

Poor Ray is in shock

Well Ray were you not really in shock when your site values plummeted a few years back?

How do you think house buyers were shocked when realising the real values of units you sold them?

I'd love to see the memorandum of understanding he refers to

Cheek of him owing so much

Get up the yard! Another failed developer

F*** him would be my initial response.

He owes us the Irish people at least 650 million, probably more.
His business is a dead duck and he was eejit enough to buy a site in central Dublin for over 85 million an acre.
In the long list of assets taken over I don't heard any mention of his homes so he should be damm grateful.

Oh and if the guy is leaving us the Irish taxpayers with 650 million of a bill will he still be going ahead with purchasing a pad in One Hyde Park, one of the most expensive developments in the world.

Another is under contract to London-based Vladimir Kim, a Kazakh billionaire who is chairman of the Kazakhstan copper producer Kazakhmys, and another is being bought by Ray Grehan, the founder of Irish residential developer Glenkerrin.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349655/One-Hyde-Park-worlds-hyped-luxury-flats-2-sold-84-go.html#ixzz1Kq5fjTth

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1349655/One-Hyde-Park-worlds-hyped-luxury-flats-2-sold-84-go.html?ITO=1490

Interesting to note ...

he had signed a memorandum of understanding with NAMA in December, but yesterday the agency still moved to place his Irish and UK assets in receivership.

Has this government lit a fire under the guys down in the Treasury building and told them to chase some of the developer class ?

beagle001

I heard that the big developer in nama top ten from Galway is next in line,apparently nama is not happy with his dealins with the agency.

doc_17

Too much time has passed for Nama to do any real damage to these guys. Two years ago this month I believe Nama was set up. Most of their assets (homes etc) would have been transferred by now to spouses and family.

barryfield2011

Slideshowbob wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/grehan-tells-of-shock-as-nama-calls-in-receivers-2631795.html

Poor Ray is in shock

Well Ray were you not really in shock when your site values plummeted a few years back?

How do you think house buyers were shocked when realising the real values of units you sold them?

I'd love to see the memorandum of understanding he refers to

Cheek of him owing so much

Get up the yard! Another failed developer

for every failed developer we seem to have 10000 irish begrudgers, . most developers will rise again or have enough wealth stashed abroad to live lives of luxuary for the remainder of their lives . nothing new here

Scofflaw

doc_17 wrote: »

Too much time has passed for Nama to do any real damage to these guys. Two years ago this month I believe Nama was set up. Most of their assets (homes etc) would have been transferred by now to spouses and family.

From NAMAWinelake:

this is from law firm Lavelle Coleman “transfers made with the intention of defeating delaying or hindering creditors or preventing the proportionate distribution of assets made be set aside, if the transfer is proved to be a “fraudulent conveyance” (i.e. deliberately done for this reason). There is no time limit in which such a transaction may be set aside.” and “there are bankruptcy rules which invalidate gifts and transfers at undervalue made within a certain time of bankruptcy. A transfer made within two or five years before bankruptcy other than in good faith and for valuable considerations can be avoided if the transferor was insolvent at that time.”

cordially,
Scofflaw

AlekSmart

barryfield2011 wrote: »

for every failed developer we seem to have 10000 irish begrudgers, . most developers will rise again or have enough wealth stashed abroad to live lives of luxuary for the remainder of their lives . nothing new here

Quite true,Barryfield201,especially as the entire NAMA apparatus was delivered in a time-lapse manner which almost invited those with the biggest exposures to adopt...erm...remedial measures to take NAMA's attentions into account.

(eg: nine weeks before the first Garda visit to Anglo Irish Bank to investigate reports of burning smells from overheated shredding machines )

I don't accept that anybody who questions the Developer friendly economic policies of successive Irish Governments is automatically a "begrudger",because we still have skip-fulls of unanswered questions about how ordinary,prudent, working-class individuals suddenly find themselves paying substantial levies for the remainder of their working lives to keep the Developer class in the style they have become accustomed to.

For the "ordinary Irish" to regain any measure of self-confidence and respect we may first have to develop a sense of indignation and even,anger ?

beeftotheheels

doc_17 wrote: »

Too much time has passed for Nama to do any real damage to these guys. Two years ago this month I believe Nama was set up. Most of their assets (homes etc) would have been transferred by now to spouses and family.

So we look at getting them back. Drumm's wife agreed to rescind the transfer of the home into her sole name when faced with the prospect of the High Court forcing her to.

Any transfers made to protect assets from creditors are not legally enforceable. Hence the Drumms argued that their transfer was purely for tax planning purposes. But the High Court agreed with Anglo that it was about sheltering assets and thus should be undone.

Where there is a will, there's a way. We just need to see a bit more evidence of there being a will.

AlekSmart

Scofflaw wrote: »

this is from law firm Lavelle Coleman “transfers made with the intention of defeating delaying or hindering creditors or preventing the proportionate distribution of assets made be set aside, if the transfer is proved to be a “fraudulent conveyance” (i.e. deliberately done for this reason). There is no time limit in which such a transaction may be set aside.” and “there are bankruptcy rules which invalidate gifts and transfers at undervalue made within a certain time of bankruptcy. A transfer made within two or five years before bankruptcy other than in good faith and for valuable considerations can be avoided if the transferor was insolvent at that time.”



cordially,
Scofflaw

All very true Scofflaw,but the proving of such intent in a Court of Law is not a straightforward everyday occurrence and is,of course,open to robust rebuttal.

Equally the precise definition of the term "in ubermis fidae",(in the utmost of good faith) can,and most assuredly will be argued long and hard all the way to the House of Lords I would imagine !!!

Scofflaw

AlekSmart wrote: »

All very true Scofflaw,but the proving of such intent in a Court of Law is not a straightforward everyday occurrence and is,of course,open to robust rebuttal.

Equally the precise definition of the term "in ubermis fidae",(in the utmost of good faith) can,and most assuredly will be argued long and hard all the way to the House of Lords I would imagine !!!

Oh, undeniably - it's just that people think they "can't be touched", whereas there is a clear legal route to recovering those assets.

cordially,
Scofflaw

macannrb

Scofflaw wrote: »

Oh, undeniably - it's just that people think they "can't be touched", whereas there is a clear legal route to recovering those assets.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I think so much time has passed that, and given the flight to Switzerland of some developers/bankers, many are skeptical of the commitment of the legal institutions in this country. Even if there is a clear legal route.

Patrick Gallagher comes to mind. http://www.rte.ie/tv/scannal/Gallagher.html

He committed the same offenses in Ireland and NI, yet only faced charges up North. He was a well connected property developer.

Call me a cynic, but is this a case of rinse and repeat?

beeftotheheels

macannrb wrote: »

I think so much time has passed that, and given the flight to Switzerland of some developers/bankers, many are skeptical of the commitment of the legal institutions in this country. Even if there is a clear legal route.

Undoubtedly true.

But at least we have the example of Anglo and Mrs Drumm. We know it can be done, in Ireland, in respect of the current situation.

We just need to see Nama following Anglo to the High Court.

Hell, I'm sounding like Scofflaw pointing out bright sides in nasty dark situations

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

Oh, undeniably - it's just that people think they "can't be touched", whereas there is a clear legal route to recovering those assets.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well one michael lyng has been at large wandering around Europe probably spending some of the money he fraudently obtained by conning banks that are now in our ownership.
AFAIK it is something like 41 months since this story first broke so can you tell me if there is/are warrants out for his arrest on criminal charges ?
How long does it take to build a fraud case in Ireland ?
Oh and has he been removed from the law society lists ?

I am not even going to bother mentioning the scum that ran Anglo.

Meanwhile a judge took into account the fact another developer who owes hundreds of millions of euro (close on billion if you include the debts of his well conected daddy as well) to us taxpayers has to send his sprogs to a fee paying school and thus can't be expected to contribute much more to paying off his debts. :mad:

Scofflaw either you are an eternal optimist or you are trying to be disengenous in forever trotting out the lines about how we will see these people chased for their debts.
I actually think you are the former since you appear to still believe in the green party.

Scofflaw

jmayo wrote: »

Well one michael lyng has been at large wandering around Europe probably spending some of the money he fraudently obtained by conning banks that are now in our ownership.
AFAIK it is something like 41 months since this story first broke so can you tell me if there is/are warrants out for his arrest on criminal charges ?
How long does it take to build a fraud case in Ireland ?
Oh and has he been removed from the law society lists ?

I am not even going to bother mentioning the scum that ran Anglo.

Meanwhile a judge took into account the fact another developer who owes hundreds of millions of euro (close on billion if you include the debts of his well conected daddy as well) to us taxpayers has to send his sprogs to a fee paying school and thus can't be expected to contribute much more to paying off his debts. :mad:

Scofflaw either you are an eternal optimist or you are trying to be disengenous in forever trotting out the lines about how we will see these people chased for their debts.
I actually think you are the former since you appear to still believe in the green party.

You can't be self-employed if you're not an optimist - but mostly I'm simply no more a fan of irrational gloom and cynicism than I was of the irrational exuberance of the bubble.

Not sure what Michael Lynn has to do with NAMA. As far as I know, he has indeed been struck off the roll of solicitors, and he has had a number of properties repossessed, but I don't think he's even in NAMA. And the "school fees" case isn't NAMA being refused money, but ACC Bank - Kelly's claim in that case is that NAMA isn't allowing him an income from his properties:

But the developer, whose soured property loans of some €200m have been taken over by NAMA, says that it is "very difficult" on his annual income of €80,000 a year to make a meaningful difference to the €17m he owes to ACC.

Mr Kelly claims he has an annual income of €80,000 but is receiving no income from NAMA despite submitting a business plan to the bad bank that included an income for him.

...

NAMA refused to discuss Mr Kelly's dealings with it, but a spokesperson said it "does not and will not" provide incomes to debtors.

Scepticism about government initiatives like NAMA is both reasonable and healthy, but without an adequate basis in fact, it's no more than kneejerk cynicism - and I don't see that citing irrelevant cases provides such a basis. NAMA will probably have success in some cases, and not in others - that's the way the law goes. From some sources we will no doubt hear about every case NAMA wins, and from other sources we will no doubt hear about every cases it doesn't.

cordially,
Scofflaw

jmayo

Scofflaw wrote: »

You can't be self-employed if you're not an optimist - but mostly I'm simply no more a fan of irrational gloom and cynicism than I was of the irrational exuberance of the bubble.

Not sure what Michael Lynn has to do with NAMA. As far as I know, he has indeed been struck off the roll of solicitors, and he has had a number of properties repossessed, but I don't think he's even in NAMA. And the "school fees" case isn't NAMA being refused money, but ACC Bank - Kelly's claim in that case is that NAMA isn't allowing him an income from his properties:

I gave these as examples of how bad our dealing with white collar crime and how the bad judicary handle cases of people of particular classes.

How many white collar criminals have gone to jail in this jurisdiction.
Lynn should not just have properties repossessed.
He should be in jail for fraud.

You do know one patrick gallagher who ran a dodgy bank that went bust long before seanie fitzpatrick, faced no sanction in this state but served time in Northern Ireland for his actions ?

There is a reason I am cynical.
I think it has something to do with fact I have watched how things get done or donot get done in this country for the last 30 odd years.

I haven't seen much to disprove my opinion of how the authorities in this state deal with those who happen to be of a certain class or are well connected.
Dear God I am now beginning to sound like communist or ULA voter. :eek:

BornToKill

doc_17 wrote: »

Two years ago this month I believe Nama was set up.

One year and four months.

Scofflaw

jmayo wrote: »

I gave these as examples of how bad our dealing with white collar crime and how the bad judicary handle cases of people of particular classes.

How many white collar criminals have gone to jail in this jurisdiction.
Lynn should not just have properties repossessed.
He should be in jail for fraud.

You do know one patrick gallagher who ran a dodgy bank that went bust long before seanie fitzpatrick, faced no sanction in this state but served time in Northern Ireland for his actions ?

There is a reason I am cynical.
I think it has something to do with fact I have watched how things get done or donot get done in this country for the last 30 odd years.

I haven't seen much to disprove my opinion of how the authorities in this state deal with those who happen to be of a certain class or are well connected.
Dear God I am now beginning to sound like communist or ULA voter. :eek:

Oh, I wouldn't really disagree with you there either, though. The muzzling of the Office of Corporate Enforcement made it fairly clear how white-collar crime would be handled here - 10 years, thousands of reports, 5 prosecutions, and one conviction. Whether that's a necessary outcome of the "Irish system" or a specific outcome of Fianna Fáil I don't know yet - unfortunately, the two are virtually synonymous throughout most of our history. Being an optimist, I can hope it's the latter.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Liam Byrne

barryfield2011 wrote: »

for every failed developer we seem to have 10000 irish begrudgers

What are we supposedly "begrudging", in your view? The fact that we're being forced to foot the bills of incompetent and idiotic gamblers while they continue to spend instead of paying off their loans like normal people have to?

That's not "begrudging", it's wanting fairness and justice, two things that are sadly lacking in modern Ireland.

Slideshowbob

NAMA rewards failure quite well

http://www.politics.ie/forum/economy/177897-nama-fails-stop-developer-being-paid-5-000-week-living-expenses.html

This country is a joke

Dr Galen

Zombie thread of little value

Please don't resurrect old threads just to vent

Cheers

DrG