Irish setter pup - how long before you'd start to get worried?!

Wolfhillbilly

Just looking the thoughts of a few experienced setter men – I have two pups (brothers) who will be two years old in July. There’s not much game about where I am so they were introduced to pigeons at about nine months, one in particular I was delighted with, first day he drew the pigeons from about 30 yards, pointed like a veteran. He also took to quartering fairly quickly as well.
The other one also pointed, wasn’t quite as impressive but after a few goes I was pleased that there was a bit of potential in both of them. Since those first few sessions, they have done nothing to fulfil that confidence! I thought maybe the pigeons routine was getting a bit repetitive for them so stopped that but had them out for short sessions of at least an hour each every Saturday during the past season where there was plenty of game. They’ve both also been bunted with an experienced dog, had birds shot over the top of them on several occasions (found by experienced dog) but neither of them will now even acknowledge game. Correction – one of them has set a snipe!
I know they’re young but I have to say I don’t have much confidence that they’ll make the grade. I owned the sire and he was a good shooting dog. The mother was a trial bred dog (Lusca breeding). I’ve had a few setters over the years and know some can come late. The early promise shown by them is giving me a bit of hope but not much – I would really have expected them to be showing better at this stage. Any sterres I’ve had before that were any good have all been showing better than these two.
I’ve had them at a grouse count in north Antrim recently and they both had great chances on birds but basically ploughed on regardless. The handlers at the trials had different advice – some thought that they should be showing better by now, others thought that they were running well and not to worry too much, that they’re still young.
Question to setter men – has anyone had any setters that have come good older than two years?
I remember a Llewelyn that was oned by my dad almost getting given away as a pet a few times but was kept until three years old and after that became one of the best dogs that was ever in the house!

premiercad

Hey Wolfhillbilly,

It's a tough predicament to be in as they are getting to the age when they should be coming good. What would worry me is the lack of interest in game, I have a setter exact same age two in july and he is not perfect by along ways but he always shows interest in game anything that flies blackbirds larks etc gets him wired up, have they honoured the point of an experienced setter? would be great to get them in on the action of a proper point and let them flush the game. also have you taken them out always together? try and take them out individually and see if they work better without the distraction of the brother. At nearly two I can say my lad is really a big teenager and I know it will take next season to fully get him to settle however he has always been in around game, I would bombard them with game as much as possible though keep getting them out on walks and meeting game and they might get the picture (bear in mind nesting birds at this time need a bit of space) Best of luck !

Double Barrel

Wolf
"has anyone had any setters that have come good older than two years?" I have but not for quite some time. Some of them come on slow that is for sure.
"others thought that they were running well and not to worry too much, that they’re still young." If there is a silver lining the good news in my experience is that they are running strong.
I clip some of the flight feathers on Quail and let the dogs chase and catch them.

"I remember a Llewelyn that was oned by my dad almost getting given away as a pet a few times but was kept until three years old and after that became one of the best dogs that was ever in the house!"

My aunt had her heart set on such a dog as a pet, but my father kept telling her "not yet" ...."not yet" ... then one day he said it was as if someone had turned on a light, once the light was on he was my fathers pride and joy. He was a very active dog late into his life, he lived to be 16 or 17.
It can be frustrating.
Keep them.

Wolfhillbilly

Thanks for the replies lads.
Premier, neither has honoured the point of an experienced setter - and they've both had plenty of chances. I've taken them out together, on their own, and with an experienced dog.
Since I posted a few weeks ago I have bought a few quail and one of them has at least given me a bit of hope. In fact both of them have now pointed them on their own, nothing spectacular and I would like to see them a lot more definite on the point but at least they have are acknowledging the game and have shown signs of a nose.
My plan is to get them on the quail two to three times a week and hopefully the penny will drop.

dicky82

im not trying to thread hijack here but i have read in few places and once or twice on here, that the irish setter is a bit of a slow burner. a friend of mine who would be fairly in the know has told me that they take that little extra attention but when they come good they are a beautiful dog to shoot over.

Wolfhillbilly

dicky82 wrote: »

im not trying to thread hijack here but i have read in few places and once or twice on here, that the irish setter is a bit of a slow burner. a friend of mine who would be fairly in the know has told me that they take that little extra attention but when they come good they are a beautiful dog to shoot over.

That's what some of the field trial men were saying to me - some of them told me not to be worried in the slightest but at the same time, I've been to trials and there are field trial champion Irish setters at close to two years old.
Most of the setters I've owned in the past have come on a bit quicker. Their dad set rock solid on a snipe at about 10 months and didn't look back. He was a great dog to shoot over. Anyway, time will tell. Hopefully they'll progress over the summer.

irish setter

if your dogs are running fine and meeting enough game sooner or later the penny will drop. imo the planted birds have served their purpose and prob won't help any more be they pigeons or quail. having birds shot over them when they were not involved def didn't help any. if i were you i'd leave the birds out till july and try to get onto good grouse ground and every time they flush a bird drop them. they will soon get the picture that grouse means stop

Wolfhillbilly

I posted an SOS message a while back about my setter pups (who are two years old today!!!). Since then they've been making a bit of progress on planted quail, which obviously have their drawbacks but they are better than no game at all. They are now at least setting and over the past month or so have started to have an idea what it's al about.
Here's a quick view of them on the planted quail if anyone's interested. Please excuse the camerawork!

http://s1121.photobucket.com/albums/l519/jjmartin12345/?action=view&current=FionnIIJuly2011.mp4

http://s1121.photobucket.com/albums/l519/jjmartin12345/?action=view&current=MaxiIIJuly2011.mp4

dicky82

ping. ping. ping. pennies dropping all round you. great to hear it.

irish setter

lovely looking dogs. i'm in the same boat as you cause i've a pup now 16 months and she really needs birds to bring her on. i was thinking about using pigeons and quail but in the end i decided to wait till the autumn and try to meet a grouse or 2 or if that fails i'll wait for the snipe. i really don't want to put a dampener on your training and hard work but i'd worry if your doing more harm than good with those quail. your teaching the dogs it's ok to get within a foot of birds and in the second video the dog got to within sight. it's only my opinion but it's one i've heard a few times. if i had to use planted birds i'd use pigeons in a remote control launcher, at least you have control to teach the dog distance, and when they flush there gone

jap gt

i agree with irish setter, i have a red setter 16months and needs a few birds to bring her on, i watched a video of derry argue, he uses the quail, but he walks the dog up to the bird on the lead, if the dog gets too close he flushes the quail using a long stick, i tried it this way and after a bit of practise my dog learned to keep her distance, in the next few weeks i will try her off the lead and if she works them well i will stop using them then and move her onto a few pheasants if i get them later in the year

blackstairsboy

Congratulations on your perseverance and hard work. I hope they turn out great for you as there is a lot of lads who would have thrown in the towel on them. It is surprising the amount of people who will discard a dog rather than working hard with it if it is not producing the goods for them when they think it should be.

Wolfhillbilly

Thanks for the advice lads. I was thinking about all those issues myself. I have used quail before and they do outgrow their usefulness fairly quickly, and for these pups I think that time has pretty much come. They have developed their noses a bit, started to get an idea about hunting and are holding a point, so in a sense they’ve done their job, but simply put, they aren’t wild game birds and don’t behave like wild game birds do so yes, you can do more harm than good.
I’m delighted with how they’ve come on though especially after having such low hopes a few months ago. Taking things a step further on these quail and trying to teach a dog to produce game is impossible, they sometimes don’t lift, can be poor flyers when they do, and even with a long stick or a launcher may only fly a few yards anyway. I think the ones Derry Argue used are bobtail quail which, from memory (I haven’t watched the video in years), were much better flyers than these ones I have (Japanese quail). I think patience (from me) to wait until later in the year may be the best thing for these two pups.
I’ll get a couple of days counting grouse in north Antrim before the 12th of August and maybe one day in Tyrone as well and it’ll not be too long after that until I can get them out again on pheasants, the season starts on October 1st up here – only 12 weeks to go!!