Is there a method to calculate your race pace using your threshold pace?

SWL

Is there a method to calculate your race pace using your threshold pace?
I have been running all my threshold cruise intervals at approximately 7.00 - 7.10/mile, I have found improvement in my heart rate at this pace; when I first started running threshold runs last summer I would struggle from the get go, now my heart rate only reaches high 160s low 170s towards the end of the runs. If I run a long tempo run up to 45min the first 20min are easy the final section I can feel the lactate acid in my legs.


So my question is using the improvements in your threshold pace, is it possible to calculate your ideal race pace. For example I ran a race over 4 miles over the weekend, first 1 and a half miles I ran 6.30 approximately felt easy. Then by half way I was in trouble struggled through hell to finish at one point my heart rate went up to 191 (I am 37), so I slowed down in case I dropped dead , my average time was approximately 7.20/mile. Slower than y threshold cruise intervals which I can run for up to 1 hour in training.


My interval runs are done at 6.30 pace usually 6 x 5min with 4 minutes rest. The first couple are relatively easy but I try to keep a consistent pace during training. I still can't understand why running races my average time is always slower than my threshold time. I don't believe I am running to fast or else I am expecting too much improvement and thus I am not as fast a runner as I would like to be after all this training. Honestly I was so disappointed with this and other results I felt like calling it a day after the race and doing something else.


So is there a method to calculate your ideal race pace the same way you can calculate your threshold pace over a given distance. Thus enabling me and other runners to run as fast as possible at a given pace.

macinalli

Am no expert so take with a pinch of salt, but to me those rest periods seem very long. I train with a group (lots of v experienced runners) and for both fartlek and track sessions we keep the rest period quite short (30 sec for fartlek, 50 sec for track). We would run 400's in 80 sec, a 50 sec break and then repeat. The idea then is to slowly increase the number of these that you can do and the theory then is that after a couple of months, your race pace would be 10 secs per lap slower than what you've trained at (i.e. 90 sec per 400, 6 minute miles). I've found that this improves my pace, and that 1 tempo run & 1 longer run per week improve the endurance. The rest is all recovery. Do you include any type of speed session in your training?

I know that it's not really answering your question, but to me something is not right if you can do 7 minute miles in training and then suffer so much at 6.30 pace in a race.

ger664

I normally set my training paces in line with my last race time. However in your case there is something a miss here.

What surface are you doing your tempo runs on treadmill/track/trail/road ?

Can you give an overview of what training you do in a week ?

What race distances are you aiming at ?

gerard65

What distance are you racing?

T runner

SWL wrote: »

Is there a method to calculate your race pace using your threshold pace?
I have been running all my threshold cruise intervals at approximately 7.00 - 7.10/mile, I have found improvement in my heart rate at this pace; when I first started running threshold runs last summer I would struggle from the get go, now my heart rate only reaches high 160s low 170s towards the end of the runs. If I run a long tempo run up to 45min the first 20min are easy the final section I can feel the lactate acid in my legs.


So my question is using the improvements in your threshold pace, is it possible to calculate your ideal race pace. For example I ran a race over 4 miles over the weekend, first 1 and a half miles I ran 6.30 approximately felt easy. Then by half way I was in trouble struggled through hell to finish at one point my heart rate went up to 191 (I am 37), so I slowed down in case I dropped dead , my average time was approximately 7.20/mile. Slower than y threshold cruise intervals which I can run for up to 1 hour in training.


My interval runs are done at 6.30 pace usually 6 x 5min with 4 minutes rest. The first couple are relatively easy but I try to keep a consistent pace during training. I still can't understand why running races my average time is always slower than my threshold time. I don't believe I am running to fast or else I am expecting too much improvement and thus I am not as fast a runner as I would like to be after all this training. Honestly I was so disappointed with this and other results I felt like calling it a day after the race and doing something else.


So is there a method to calculate your ideal race pace the same way you can calculate your threshold pace over a given distance. Thus enabling me and other runners to run as fast as possible at a given pace.

Its trial and error.

According to this site http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm
Someone capable of holding a 6:30 pace for a 4 mile race, should be doing his/her cruise intervals at 6:35-44 pace and their short tempo runs at 6:44 to 7:00 pace.

a 27:30 minute 4 mile time suggests cruise intervals of 6:58 to 7:07.

So it looks like you went out too fast. A 6:53 pace looks right based on your training.

Your average from the actual race was slower than tempo becuase you went so far into oxygen debt.

A 4 mile race can be tricky (apparently) because you are over your lactate threshold for the entire race. i.e a misjudgemnet in pace can be disastrous.

A safe strategy in this type of race might be to run the first 2 mile at 7 pace or just faster. You will know then whether you have it in your legs to try and push the final two miles. This will allow you to be strong at the end and "race" to the tape.

SWL

macinalli wrote: »

Am no expert so take with a pinch of salt, but to me those rest periods seem very long. I train with a group (lots of v experienced runners) and for both fartlek and track sessions we keep the rest period quite short (30 sec for fartlek, 50 sec for track). We would run 400's in 80 sec, a 50 sec break and then repeat. The idea then is to slowly increase the number of these that you can do and the theory then is that after a couple of months, your race pace would be 10 secs per lap slower than what you've trained at (i.e. 90 sec per 400, 6 minute miles). I've found that this improves my pace, and that 1 tempo run & 1 longer run per week improve the endurance. The rest is all recovery. Do you include any type of speed session in your training?

I know that it's not really answering your question, but to me something is not right if you can do 7 minute miles in training and then suffer so much at 6.30 pace in a race.

Hi thanks for the reply – you made a very good point about recovery time. e.g. I used to run with an experienced runner and we would do 400s with 60 second recovery. After 6 of these I was completely spent. However after he emigrated I started using jack Daniels running formula 5k -15k training programme. JD recommends 400 on 400 off and I could complete up to 12 sets. So when it comes to racing I find the races much tougher than I used too when I had a running partner, where the intensity was very similar.


So that is something I might change.

SWL

ger664 wrote: »

I normally set my training paces in line with my last race time. However in your case there is something a miss here.

What surface are you doing your tempo runs on treadmill/track/trail/road ?

Can you give an overview of what training you do in a week ?

What race distances are you aiming at ?

Hi ger664 - normally do my tempo runs on a flat loop, all my training is on the road.

I am following the 5k -15k Jack Daniels running formula, last week i did the following

6 x 5min with 4 min rest twice in one week, a tempo run of 20mins with 4min rest then 15mins with 3mins rest, then 10 mins with 2min rest then 5min and a cool down jog. plus some easy runs a long run and long cycle.

I am now about to enter into the final phase of his program. I follow it to the letter.

SWL

gerard65 wrote: »

What distance are you racing?

Hi gerard65 - Presently racing 5k to 5 miles hoping to increase my distance over the summer to include a few half marathons and maybe Dublin full at the end of the year.

SWL

T runner wrote: »

Its trial and error.

According to this site http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm
Someone capable of holding a 6:30 pace for a 4 mile race, should be doing his/her cruise intervals at 6:35-44 pace and their short tempo runs at 6:44 to 7:00 pace.

a 27:30 minute 4 mile time suggests cruise intervals of 6:58 to 7:07.

So it looks like you went out too fast. A 6:53 pace looks right based on your training.

Your average from the actual race was slower than tempo becuase you went so far into oxygen debt.

A 4 mile race can be tricky (apparently) because you are over your lactate threshold for the entire race. i.e a misjudgemnet in pace can be disastrous.

A safe strategy in this type of race might be to run the first 2 mile at 7 pace or just faster. You will know then whether you have it in your legs to try and push the final two miles. This will allow you to be strong at the end and "race" to the tape.

T runner - thanks for the calculator. i think you have nailed it went out to fast going by the times you posted above. next race i will try and use my head and not my heart when racing. my modus operandiis is to race from the go and an even pace if possible.

but your strategy is a good one and i will give it a go.

ger664

Seems like you just went out too quick in the race and blew up.

I use this sheet for training times. You will need a good race time and know your Max and resting HR.

Daniels Tables

I take my last race time, and then use the training paces it spits out for my training sessions after that until I improve my race time.

Does that training plan suggest to run your tempo pace sessions like that ?
I always thought that tempo pace runs should be anywhere between 20mins to 1 Hour with no rest break, just a warm up and warm down before and after ?

SWL

ger664 wrote: »

Seems like you just went out too quick in the race and blew up.

I use this sheet for training times. You will need a good race time and know your Max and resting HR.

Daniels Tables

I take my last race time, and then use the training paces it spits out for my training sessions after that until I improve my race time.

Does that training plan suggest to run your tempo pace sessions like that ?
I always thought that tempo pace runs should be anywhere between 20mins to 1 Hour with no rest break, just a warm up and warm down before and after ?

Yes JD training plan suggests two types of tempo runs one is a long continuous run of up to 45mins with a specified number of seconds added to your tempo run time e.g 7 mins plus 15 seconds for runs over 25mins.

The second method is the cruise interval like the one above, the cruise intervals are easier in that you can get some good quality mileage in, however i do find the continuous run better, the LA builds up towards the end of the run, mentally its also better. i usually swap between cruise and long tempo runs every second week