ECB a target for renewed IRA?

alan85

It struck me watching the men in Derry over the weekend that they mentioned soverignty of Ireland as an issue for them. I wouldn't ever see myself amongst their ranks. I'm not a violent person is all I will say.

Do these people see the ECB as a target as much as they do the P.S.N.I officers? The ECB have come in here and made us pay for their loses. They have lowered prospects of the youth here and are imposing lower standards of living on us (or the majority of us anyway). We are effectivily forced to leave our own country. It is as bad as what the British have done in the past in my opinion in terms of degradation of a people. I'm not saying go and bomb the ECB but surely if you believe force should be used against 'traitors' of your cause the ECB are as worthy targets as any P.S.N.I. officer or member of the Royal family or British Army are they not? Has the ECB anything to fear in Frankfurt I wonder?

caseyann

Way to give them ideas alan

Einhard

The ECB didn't force us to do anything. We always have choices.

caseyann

Einhard wrote: »

The ECB didn't force us to do anything. We always have choices.

Only if they agree with them.

JustinDee

I think they should target more fibre, vegetables and exercise.
The fattest terrorist nutballs I've ever seen.

View

caseyann wrote: »

Only if they agree with them.

Nonsense. We are perfectly free to go with the alternative if we want.

caseyann

View wrote: »

Nonsense. We are perfectly free to go with the alternative if we want.

Who gave the alternative and what is it?:D

K-9

caseyann wrote: »

Who gave the alternative and what is it?:D

Sinn Fein, the ULA and many Independents.

View

caseyann wrote: »

Who gave the alternative and what is it?:D

The alternative is what it always has been.

The easy bit: We are borrowing 2 out of every 5 Euro we are spending (a rate of roughly 2 million an hour). Cut public spending and/or raise taxes to cover that - which, if done - right now - would necessitate closing schools, hospitals etc.

The hard bit: Let the banks go bust and figure out the interesting consequences of that on a society. It would probably be painful but we could console ourselves that we'll be written up in the economic journals for years to come.

We remain free to go with that anytime we want. The Oireachtas though doesn't want to and, if the last election is any guide, neither does a clear majority of the electorate.

caseyann

View wrote: »

The alternative is what it always has been.

The easy bit: We are borrowing 2 out of every 5 Euro we are spending (a rate of roughly 2 million an hour). Cut public spending and/or raise taxes to cover that - which, if done - right now - would necessitate closing schools, hospitals etc.

The hard bit: Let the banks go bust and figure out the interesting consequences of that on a society. It would probably be painful but we could console ourselves that we'll be written up in the economic journals for years to come.

We remain free to go with that anytime we want. The Oireachtas though doesn't want to and, if the last election is any guide, neither does a clear majority of the electorate.

I reckon should go with that one,might bring Ireland back to reality.

alan85

View wrote: »

The alternative is what it always has been.

The easy bit: We are borrowing 2 out of every 5 Euro we are spending (a rate of roughly 2 million an hour). Cut public spending and/or raise taxes to cover that - which, if done - right now - would necessitate closing schools, hospitals etc.

The hard bit: Let the banks go bust and figure out the interesting consequences of that on a society. It would probably be painful but we could console ourselves that we'll be written up in the economic journals for years to come.

We remain free to go with that anytime we want. The Oireachtas though doesn't want to and, if the last election is any guide, neither does a clear majority of the electorate.

Less of an alternative now as they took our Pension Reserve. You may say we borrow every 2 of 5 but I think it's less than that because out of the 85bn, 35 is set aside for banks and the rest for deficit spending. 17bn of that 85 is from NPRF so nearly one fifth (or nearly one third of deficit funds) is coming from our own savings. So I would suggest that it's more like 1 of every 5 we're effectively borrowing for day to day spending. The spread sheets will say differently but that's they way it's been set up by the last and current governments... The rest simply goes to the banks...

View

caseyann wrote: »

I reckon should go with that one,might bring Ireland back to reality.

It might indeed - it would be interesting to see what happens when we run out of cash and discover that the ATMs no longer dispense it. No doubt the kids wouldn't mind if they have to go without food for a few months (No cash = No money to buy food after all).

View

alan85 wrote: »

Less of an alternative now as they took our Pension Reserve. You may say we borrow every 2 of 5 but I think it's less than that because out of the 85bn, 35 is set aside for banks and the rest for deficit spending.

No, the 2 out of 5 is just deficit spending used to provide public services.

Currently, the 3 out of every 5 Euro we spend covers the state's expenditure until mid-July or so. The 3 billion or so left in the NPRF (after our politicians decided to use it save the banks) will cover the expenditure until roughly the end of August (since we are borrowing 1.66 billion a month or so). After that, there is the small matter that come September, we have no money to pay for any public service of any kind - not the service, not the public servants who provides it, not the heat or electricity needed to do so.

That's just this year's figures.

But, hey, the rest of the EU must be a shower of b*st&rds because they loan us the money to keep our schools and hospitals open and our social welfare system functioning...

caseyann

View wrote: »

It might indeed - it would be interesting to see what happens when we run out of cash and discover that the ATMs no longer dispense it. No doubt the kids wouldn't mind if they have to go without food for a few months (No cash = No money to buy food after all).

Ah live off the land

K-9

It would be great to balance the books just like that. Imagine the cuts to Social Welfare alone.

GSF

caseyann wrote: »

Who gave the alternative and what is it?:D

Dont borrow any money - ie. balance the country's books. That way you dont have to resort to the bond markets.

Wolfe Tone

Remember they bombed a bank last year.

Boskowski

If anything I was somewhat surprised they remained so silent over the last government's (and their connections) antics.

Because - you know - this mess is entirely homemade.

Of course it is so much more convenient to revert to the one thing we're actually world class at: denial/blaming everybody but ourselves

jmayo

View wrote: »

Nonsense. We are perfectly free to go with the alternative if we want.

Ah the jump in the shark infested waters now or sit in the boat while the ECB/EU load us down so much that we will eventually be swimming with the sharks.
Nice choices. :rolleyes:

I wish you would stop on every thread making out that the ECB/EU are somehow our white knights galloping to our rescue.
Yes we need to massively cut our budget, but their solutions are not to save us but save themselves.

FFS the IMF are better for us and that is saying something.

As for the new IRA splinter groups, just strip them, tatoo some anti mohammed slogan on their ars** and drop them in Kandahar Province and see how they make out.
Hell Sky and Ross Kemp could be on hand to film it.:D

View

jmayo wrote: »

Ah the jump in the shark infested waters now or sit in the boat while the ECB/EU load us down so much that we will eventually be swimming with the sharks.
Nice choices. :rolleyes:

I wish you would stop on every thread making out that the ECB/EU are somehow our white knights galloping to our rescue.
Yes we need to massively cut our budget, but their solutions are not to save us but save themselves.

Look, there are essentially two choices available to us.

Either:
a) we sort out our problems on our own - which means we have to make all those budget cuts right now and (almost definitely) undergo the interesting experiment of having our entire banking system collapse at the same time, or,
b) we go with the current IMF/EU package (either with or without some minor modification of it).

Nobody is offering us an option c) that will enable us to avoid choosing between those two options. As it is, the other member states of the EU and the IMF are under no obligation to provide us with any assistance whatsoever - they would be perfectly within their rights to leave us to face option a) on our own (and, indeed, the IMF has walked away from countries that decide to spurn its advice in the past).

Right now, we are like a drowning man being swept out to sea by a very strong current. The IMF/EU have thrown us a lifebelt which we are have a weak grip on. Turning up our nose at the lifebelt because:
a) it doesn't meet your expectations that it should be a de-luxe gold plated one with a silver spoon for you, or,
b) the white knight - i.e. the lifebelt thrower - is the wrong shade of white
is just more of this "celtic tiger" bubble hubris which, of course, helped get us into this mess in the first place.

Worse still, in our situation, there is every reason to suspect that letting go of the lifebelt (i.e. option a)) could probably be a lot worse than hanging on to it. If you notice, there is no one actually prepared to spell out in detail how they would balance the budget right now much less pick up the pieces after a bank collapse.

So, make a clear and free choice as to whether you personally would in reality be willing to choose option a) and start closing public services in their entirety by the end of the Summer, or whether, - like our elected representatives - choose option b) and go with the slow step-by-step process of trying to haul us out of this mess.

jmayo

View wrote: »

Look, there are essentially two choices available to us.

Either:
a) we sort out our problems on our own - which means we have to make all those budget cuts right now and (almost definitely) undergo the interesting experiment of having our entire banking system collapse at the same time, or,
b) we go with the current IMF/EU package (either with or without some minor modification of it).

Either option involves us defaulting.
It is only a question of when. :rolleyes:

View wrote: »

...
Right now, we are like a drowning man being swept out to sea by a very strong current. The IMF/EU have thrown us a lifebelt which we are have a weak grip on. Turning up our nose at the lifebelt because:
a) it doesn't meet your expectations that it should be a de-luxe gold plated one with a silver spoon for you, ...

Ehh I would settle for one that didn't have lead weights attached. :rolleyes:

You see this is what I take issue with and why I believe you and other europhiles consider them to be akin to white knights.
You make it sound like they are offering us something great.
They are screwing us with an interest rate that we can never hope to repay.
They are punishing us as an example and they are also kicking a can down the road.
They have to know that there is no way that we can ever meet those repayments, short of us striking massive oil reserves somewhere that doesn't involve planning wrangles. :rolleyes:

They are continually chastising us, which fair enough as we as a nation deserve.
But what we continually do not need is them making noises that affects our ability to repay and one of the biggest examples of this is how major EU leaders are sounding off about us having to change our corporation tax rate.
Kenny had to keep reassuring US investors during his trip to Washington that our Corpo tax was not up for negogiation.

View wrote: »

b) the white knight - i.e. the lifebelt thrower - is the wrong shade of white ...

Ehh I have never considered the EU/ECB white knights, but sometimes listening to you, one would think that we should be hailing them as liberating heroes. :rolleyes:
Oh and BTW I would have been one of those who did think that certain people in this country got to big for their britches.

You also appear to forget that the ECB/EU are the ones telling us we cannot not pay back bondholders, it appears they are the ones demanding we must save all banks.

Anyway I do believe it is all a moot discussion since the ECB are going to be getting an ar**kicking down the road.
The cajas/caixas are a dam waiting to burst, then Spain is in trouble, Italy has it's own troubles and Greece and Ireland are bound for default within a couple of years.

View

jmayo wrote: »

Either option involves us defaulting.
It is only a question of when. :rolleyes:

The Oireachtas does not appear to share that opinion. Nor do the IMF/EU - they would hang on to their money, rather than loan it to us, if they believed that we will default on the repayments.

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh I would settle for one that didn't have lead weights attached. :rolleyes:

To repeat - there is no option c) on offer from anyone else. Hence, if you don't want the IMF/EU package, you go with option a) and close your hospitals, schools etc.

Maybe you are prepared to do that, a majority of the politicians and the electorate don't want to do so.

jmayo wrote: »

You see this is what I take issue with and why I believe you and other europhiles consider them to be akin to white knights.

It has nothing to do with white knights. There are two options on the table as a result of the IMF/EU offer. That is one more than would be there if they decided to leave us to face this on our own. I see no obvious reason to reduce our options down to one by spurning the offer unless we are prepared to face the consequences of that decision (i.e. closing schools, hospitals etc).

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh I have never considered the EU/ECB white knights, but sometimes listening to you, one would think that we should be hailing them as liberating heroes. :rolleyes:

Again, you were the one who raised the concept of white knights. Without the IMF/EU package, that you dislike so much, we would now be facing a massive shutdown of all government services. It takes money to run them and - without outside assistance - we do not have the money to do so right now.

You can give out all you like but it still doesn't alter that our budget math doesn't add up without that outside assistance.

jmayo wrote: »

You also appear to forget that the ECB/EU are the ones telling us we cannot not pay back bondholders, it appears they are the ones demanding we must save all banks.

Since they are now our major bondholders, what do you expect? That they agree to loan us the money knowing we are going to refuse to pay them back?

Or do you mean the banks? If so, you can show me the votes in the Oireachtas where it was decided to throw the banks to the wolves. Offhand, I don't remember any such votes but I do remember a lot of votes where it was repeatedly decided to save them. Lest you be under any illusion, "demands" from any one or any group - whether domestic or EU - do not bind the Oireachtas to vote in a certain way. The Oireachtas has made its decisions - unless it decides to pursue a different course, you are stuck with them.

jmayo

View wrote: »

The Oireachtas does not appear to share that opinion. Nor do the IMF/EU - they would hang on to their money, rather than loan it to us, if they believed that we will default on the repayments.

Ah come on, lets be realistic shall we.
Most financial commentators and analysts out there believe we are going to default.
Same for Greece.
The EU/ECB are trying to buy time.

View wrote: »

It has nothing to do with white knights. There are two options on the table as a result of the IMF/EU offer. That is one more than would be there if they decided to leave us to face this on our own. I see no obvious reason to reduce our options down to one by spurning the offer unless we are prepared to face the consequences of that decision (i.e. closing schools, hospitals etc).

You see you keep including the IMF/EU in the deal.
My gripe is with the offer from the EU/ECB and I have even mentioned here or elsewhere that I think the IMF are better for us than our so called colleagues in Brussels/Frankfurt.

View wrote: »

Again, you were the one who raised the concept of white knights. Without the IMF/EU package, that you dislike so much, we would now be facing a massive shutdown of all government services. It takes money to run them and - without outside assistance - we do not have the money to do so right now.

You can give out all you like but it still doesn't alter that our budget math doesn't add up without that outside assistance.

But if it wasn't for the banks and taking on of massive private debt and turning it into soverign debt I believe we could manage our deficit and we could probably get funding on financial markets.
The problem is we have no banking infrastructure, we have been lumped with huge losses, biggest in corporate world and that is what pushed us over the edge.
And looking at the EU/ECB it appears we have been ordered that we have no choice, but pay all of that back and that all our banks had to have been saved.

View wrote: »

Since they are now our major bondholders, what do you expect? That they agree to loan us the money knowing we are going to refuse to pay them back?

It looks like we are being forced to pay back investors in Anglo, INBS, etc.
How much of a hole has that left us.
What were the corporate losses of Anglo over the last three years ?
AFAIK they were the world biggest corporate loss maker two years in a row.
And those losses were over 10 billion per annum.
Now if we didn't have to fund that, imagine how much easier it would have been to raise funding on markets.

Nobody, bar a few loonies have ever said we should renage on paying back our true soverign debt.
Problem 1 is the government waited too long to cut our deficit and because we had poured so much money into the banks through recapitalisation and NAMA we could not afford to borrow off world markets for that current budget.

Anyway you will still be pro Euro/EU as they sail away after they have found some way of dumping the insolvent PIGS.

Note there is only one I in there as Italy will need to be included in the true Eurozone whilst the rest of us will be offloaded through some mechanism.
Welcome to two tier Europe.