vet treats calf , calf dies = ?

irishh_bob

the brother got the vet out today , nine week old fresian heifer had what seemed like a blood scour , anyway , the vet decided to inject the calf into the vein and the calf litterally died within seconds in front of us , vet made his excuses and left soon after , the brother says hes going to play it cool but says he will be deducting the value of this heifer ( 400 euro ) from the next vet bill

surely even the vet was to take a case for non payment , my brother could not be found in the wrong , this vet is a bit of a dud , we normally get the other vets at the practice and he has a poor reputation with farmers , its not as if the calf was lieing on the ground for days , it drank its milk this morning , i should know , i fed it

kfk

What did the vet say caused the calf to die? What was he injecting the calf with?

whelan1

something like this happened to us a few years ago with a pb angus , vet said sure when you've livestock you've deadstock:eek: we moved vets shortly after

Traonach

The calf probably got a severe anaphylactic reaction to the injection. These things do happen. I wouldn't blame the vet. I saw the same thing in a calf once that got an injection of marbocyl into the vein. It just keeled over and died.

irishh_bob

Traonach wrote: »

The calf probably got a severe anaphylactic reaction to the injection. These things do happen. I wouldn't blame the vet. I saw the same thing in a calf once that got an injection of marbocyl into the vein. It just keeled over and died.

but is it probable that in the event of a court case , the vet could be seen as neglegent

Kovu

Hard to say exactly what caused it but it does sound like the calf took a reaction to whatever it was given. Seen it before when I worked with a vet, calf got marbocyl into the vein (treating IBR) and it keeled over not 5 mins after, puffed a bit and died. Doubt you'd win a courtcase about it as the vet was called for and made a decision. Bit heartless of him to just up and leave after though.

whelan1

i would ring the practice tomorrow and let them know you are not happy and that you dont intend to pay for the visit , see what they say... i have complained a few times and each time i wasnt charged for the visit... he said he was happy that i had called as he wouldnt have known otherwise

ihatetractors

Could have been an air bubble in syringe?, ok into muscle but in vein travels to hearth etc so fast.... ?

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

i would ring the practice tomorrow and let them know you are not happy and that you dont intend to pay for the visit , see what they say... i have complained a few times and each time i wasnt charged for the visit... he said he was happy that i had called as he wouldnt have known otherwise

not paying for the visit is one thing , deducting the value of the heifer is another

whelan1

irishh_bob wrote: »

not paying for the visit is one thing , deducting the value of the heifer is another

what i mean is take it from there you will know what their atitude is from that... tbh i would find it hard to see tham paying the value of the animal.. might be no harm to get an independent post mortem done on the calf

5live

irishh_bob wrote: »

the brother got the vet out today , nine week old fresian heifer had what seemed like a blood scour , anyway , the vet decided to inject the calf into the vein and the calf litterally died within seconds in front of us , vet made his excuses and left soon after , the brother says hes going to play it cool but says he will be deducting the value of this heifer ( 400 euro ) from the next vet bill

surely even the vet was to take a case for non payment , my brother could not be found in the wrong , this vet is a bit of a dud , we normally get the other vets at the practice and he has a poor reputation with farmers , its not as if the calf was lieing on the ground for days , it drank its milk this morning , i should know , i fed it

Deduct the price of the visit, yes. But as soon as you left him begin treatment, if i understand the law correctly, you had a contract with him. If an animal dies, unless you can prove negligence, i dont think you have a case to charge him for the cost of the animal.

What if he counters that you should have seen the animal being sick sooner? And she was on her last legs anyway and , in his expert opinion, this was the only option to save her?

If you had an issue with his abilities, would it not have been better to request a different vet or change practice?

We have had differences of opinion before bob, and im not trying to have an argument with you on this but i dont think that is a good idea. What if your vet refuses to hand on your records to a new vet until the bill is cleared or has a 'word' with your new vet about your non payment of the bill.

Pay him and move and cut your losses imo

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

what i mean is take it from there you will know what their atitude is from that... tbh i would find it hard to see tham paying the value of the animal.. might be no harm to get an independent post mortem done on the calf

do you not have to bring the dead carcasse to abbotstown for that , even a vet in another town was willing , vets are a clique ( not as bad as doctors ) and would be unlikely to criticise a colleague

irishh_bob

5live wrote: »

Deduct the price of the visit, yes. But as soon as you left him begin treatment, if i understand the law correctly, you had a contract with him. If an animal dies, unless you can prove negligence, i dont think you have a case to charge him for the cost of the animal.

What if he counters that you should have seen the animal being sick sooner? And she was on her last legs anyway and , in his expert opinion, this was the only option to save her?

If you had an issue with his abilities, would it not have been better to request a different vet or change practice?

We have had differences of opinion before bob, and im not trying to have an argument with you on this but i dont think that is a good idea. What if your vet refuses to hand on your records to a new vet until the bill is cleared or has a 'word' with your new vet about your non payment of the bill.

Pay him and move and cut your losses imo

crikey , i dont remember ever having an arguement with you but then again i rarely recall exchanges ive had in cyberspace

irishh_bob

Karen112 wrote: »

Tell them you treated the calf yourself with stuff you had in the farm fridge. They'll be honest then. If it was an OD from too much, you'll now and will have it in writing to bring to court, newborn calf with no tags, they'll never know. If not, your loss. And yes, the animal has to be taken to the lab.

sure if i tell a lie , ive already hung myself by setting myself up as a liar , credibility demolished immedietley

dar31

what would have happened the calf if the vet didnt come out( or any vet)?
the most you could ask for is the fee for the visit waved.

what would happen any time a vet treated an animal and it took a turn for the worst. do you claim for all those animals, the cost of which will only go back on to the call out fee, putting vet fee to high and being to expensive to get, and the calf would die then again.

where there is life their is death

if the vet is to blame for the death then the farmer is as much to blame for the sickness.
id be annoyed in the same scenario but thats the joys of it

Kovu

irishh_bob wrote: »

sure if i tell a lie , ive already hung myself by setting myself up as a liar , credibility demolished immedietley

If the vet was there when it died then that won't work. Think outside the box. If you are going to post mortem her then I have a few suggestions.

irishh_bob

dar31 wrote: »

what would have happened the calf if the vet didnt come out( or any vet)?
the most you could ask for is the fee for the visit waved.

what would happen any time a vet treated an animal and it took a turn for the worst. do you claim for all those animals, the cost of which will only go back on to the call out fee, putting vet fee to high and being to expensive to get, and the calf would die then again.

where there is life their is death

if the vet is to blame for the death then the farmer is as much to blame for the sickness.
id be annoyed in the same scenario but thats the joys of it

a vet treating a sick animal and it unfortunatley dieing afterwards ( beit two hours or two days ) anyhow is quite different to an animal going into immediete shock (and dieing ) after being given an injection by a vet

irishh_bob

Karen112 wrote: »

If the vet was there when it died then that won't work. Think outside the box. If you are going to post mortem her then I have a few suggestions.

you might be better reading earlier posts 1st , you mentioned something about the calf not having tags in your last post , this calf is nine weeks old as i stated clerarly in my 1st post , if i bring the calf to another vet for a post mortem , then i will need that vets evidence and opinion in any subsequent court case , were i to lie about having myself injected the calf , i would be destroying my credibility for a court hearing , bear in mind that the vet doing the post mortem would be on the side of the vet who was there when the calf died

Kovu

oop sorry, didn't mean to quote you in that. Just getting used to the forum! I believe a PM should be carried out. It would be less than the 400 E quoted by the owner and would resolve a lot. If the owner is correct, a lawsuit could occur. If not, pay the Vet and accept the loss. To me that would be fair.

Kovu

Apologies, I read too fast for my own good!

irishh_bob

Karen112 wrote: »

oop sorry, didn't mean to quote you in that. Just getting used to the forum! I believe a PM should be carried out. It would be less than the 400 E quoted by the owner and would resolve a lot. If the owner is correct, a lawsuit could occur. If not, pay the Vet and accept the loss. To me that would be fair.

afaik , post mortems are free in the vetenery college

bob charles

get over it, sh*t happens

Kovu

irishh_bob wrote: »

afaik , post mortems are free in the vetenery college

Then do it. If you're wrong, be a man and accept the loss. If not, take action. The PM is the only way to solve this, not paying the vet will only end in a lawsuit.

LostCovey

Karen112 wrote: »

Then do it. If you're wrong, be a man and accept the loss. If not, take action. The PM is the only way to solve this, not paying the vet will only end in a lawsuit.

I agree.

My brother went to the chemist at a weekend last Christmas with a bad toothache, she sold him Brufen.

He took an anaphylactic reaction, got very sick in seconds, nearly died, got an antidote from the GP, rushed to casualty by ambulance.

If he had died would that have been the chemist's fault?

I don't think so.

I don't think that the animal dying immediately after injection is proof of negligence, even though it does suggest that the death was connected to what was given.

The examples above re Marbocyl are different - that should only be given into muscle, so a different story.

I always heard that in law, 'stoppage is not payment', in other words, the vet can recover his bill from you through the courts by proving he did the work, and you must pursue your loss separately, by proving his negligence caused your loss

In the real world, there's negotiation, and I think the sooner the better.

LC

pajero12

irishh_bob wrote: »

afaik , post mortems are free in the vetenery college

Do they send them to Bellfield? Thought they were done in independant labs. Theres one in Athlone!

And Is Marbocyl not into the muscle? Edit: Beaten to it by LC

keep going

bob charles wrote: »

get over it, sh*t happens

have to agree but if you are not happy with this particular vet dont have him again

Kovu

Into muscle = same thing but a larger dosage and a slower reaction. Only done with certain drugs and def by a qualified vet. I'm not saying the vet was incorrect, LC, I'm saying that if he feels that something was incorrectly administered then that should be checked. I've seen a calf die after a blood transfusion on our farm, was that bad veterinarian advice or a call on the job?

Edit- spelled transfusion wrong.

whelan1

irishh_bob wrote: »

you might be better reading earlier posts 1st , you mentioned something about the calf not having tags in your last post , this calf is nine weeks old as i stated clerarly in my 1st post , if i bring the calf to another vet for a post mortem , then i will need that vets evidence and opinion in any subsequent court case , were i to lie about having myself injected the calf , i would be destroying my credibility for a court hearing , bear in mind that the vet doing the post mortem would be on the side of the vet who was there when the calf died

we had a cow a few years ago that was damaged by the scanning man , she had massive adhesions inside her , my vet suspected this was what was wrong with her, i got a non partial vet to pm her and he said 100% it was from the scanning man... a second opinion as when the animal is gone its gone , you only have one chance to get the pm done

whelan1

Traonach wrote: »

Marbocyl can be given i/v, s/c or i/m

true , i gave it i/v today and the calf is fine

whelan1

LostCovey wrote: »

I agree.

My brother went to the chemist at a weekend last Christmas with a bad toothache, she sold him Brufen.

He took an anaphylactic reaction, got very sick in seconds, nearly died, got an antidote from the GP, rushed to casualty by ambulance.

If he had died would that have been the chemist's fault?

I don't think so.

I don't think that the animal dying immediately after injection is proof of negligence, even though it does suggest that the death was connected to what was given.

The examples above re Marbocyl are different - that should only be given into muscle, so a different story.

I always heard that in law, 'stoppage is not payment', in other words, the vet can recover his bill from you through the courts by proving he did the work, and you must pursue your loss separately, by proving his negligence caused your loss

In the real world, there's negotiation, and I think the sooner the better.

LC

my daughter , who was under 2 at the time got 10 times the dose of medication in a chemist... the pharmacist was off- which is totally illegal, dd nearly died....i didnt sue , i reported them , techichian who made up the medicine was fired and dd is still alive:)

irishh_bob

bob charles wrote: »

get over it, sh*t happens

thanks , i might use that piece of advice when explaining to the vet why im cutting him

irishh_bob

Karen112 wrote: »

Then do it. If you're wrong, be a man and accept the loss. If not, take action. The PM is the only way to solve this, not paying the vet will only end in a lawsuit.

you sure are brash for someone who isnt a wet week on boards let alone this section of boards

being a man in my book is not taking something lieing down , going away with your tail between your legs is defeatist

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

thanks , i might use that piece of advice when explaining to the vet why im cutting him

I thought it was your brother's animal?

How does he feel about the whole situation and what is his long term relationship with the vet like?

Sometimes a vet can make a mistake, he is human after all. Personally, if it was my own vet, I would cut my losses and move on with it. My vet provides too good of service 24/7 for me to fall out with him over the death of a calf.

But it will have to be your brother's decision what he does. There is little point positing information up here and getting replies that will make your blood boil if you are not the owner of the animal and the decision maker. It will only stress you out and give you Ulcers. Talk to your brother about it and make an informed and educated decision about what he should do - if anything.

Tipp Man

Why not ring the head vet in the practice and let him know what happened and say that you don't want to be charged for that call out

He will almost definately understand the situation and agree to this.

I really don't think you want to go down the legal route, The only people to gain from that would be solicitors and it will cost a lot more than the price of a FR heifer (which will be a dime a dozen over the next couple of years anyway)

whelan1

Tipp Man wrote: »

Why not ring the head vet in the practice and let him know what happened and say that you don't want to be charged for that call out

He will almost definately understand the situation and agree to this.

I really don't think you want to go down the legal route, The only people to gain from that would be solicitors and it will cost a lot more than the price of a FR heifer (which will be a dime a dozen over the next couple of years anyway)

thats exactly what i suggested on the first page:rolleyes: also i am nearly at the end of a long legal case over animals i purchased nearly 2 years ago tbh it is alot of hassle

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

I thought it was your brother's animal?

How does he feel about the whole situation and what is his long term relationship with the vet like?

Sometimes a vet can make a mistake, he is human after all. Personally, if it was my own vet, I would cut my losses and move on with it. My vet provides too good of service 24/7 for me to fall out with him over the death of a calf.

But it will have to be your brother's decision what he does. There is little point positing information up here and getting replies that will make your blood boil if you are not the owner of the animal and the decision maker. It will only stress you out and give you Ulcers. Talk to your brother about it and make an informed and educated decision about what he should do - if anything.

myself and the brother have an usual arrangement when it comes to ( his farm ) , i have a stake in the business but dont own the land , hope that answer satisfies you

oh and the brother is a complete technophobe , doesnt use the internet

Kovu

irishh_bob wrote: »

you sure are brash for someone who isnt a wet week on boards let alone this section of boards

being a man in my book is not taking something lieing down , going away with your tail between your legs is defeatist

Well excuse me for not knowing a farming section was on Boards.ie. I'm not brash, I speak what I know. And for you to jest with Bob Charles over "Get over it s**t happens" and then say that in the very next post is a bit ironic don't you think????

Edit- I may read a bit much into things, and bad day too, show calf has pneumonia. So I don't mean to fight, just trying to give my advice.

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

myself and the brother have an usual arrangement when it comes to ( his farm ) , i have a stake in the business but dont own the land , hope that answer satisfies you

oh and the brother is a complete technophobe , doesnt use the internet

Cool. Its a good way to operate. Wish my brother had an interest in it - it would have lightened the load a bit - especially when we were younger.

Sorry I got mixed up your original post suggested that it was all his:

the brother got the vet out today , nine week old fresian heifer had what seemed like a blood scour , anyway , the vet decided to inject the calf into the vein and the calf litterally died within seconds in front of us , vet made his excuses and left soon after , the brother says hes going to play it cool but says he will be deducting the value of this heifer ( 400 euro ) from the next vet bill

5live

Tipp Man wrote: »

Why not ring the head vet in the practice and let him know what happened and say that you don't want to be charged for that call out

He will almost definately understand the situation and agree to this.

I really don't think you want to go down the legal route, The only people to gain from that would be solicitors and it will cost a lot more than the price of a FR heifer (which will be a dime a dozen over the next couple of years anyway)

+1. Good advice. Why look for trouble when it will find you anyway

irishh_bob

Karen112 wrote: »

Well excuse me for not knowing a farming section was on Boards.ie. I'm not brash, I speak what I know. And for you to jest with Bob Charles over "Get over it s**t happens" and then say that in the very next post is a bit ironic don't you think????

Edit- I may read a bit much into things, and bad day too, show calf has pneumonia. So I don't mean to fight, just trying to give my advice.

for someone so new to this forum , your manner is both combatitive and authoritarian , thats my impression anyhows , other people will have thiers , dont worry about it , i never take anything personal on a internet forum but il still describe what i see from posts

comments such as **** happens and get over it are dismissive and undermining , hardly surprising if they are replied to with scorn

irishh_bob

reilig wrote: »

Cool. Its a good way to operate. Wish my brother had an interest in it - it would have lightened the load a bit - especially when we were younger.

Sorry I got mixed up your original post suggested that it was all his:

completley understandable , my posts are often clumsy when it comes to discussing my bros farm and stock , i often refer to his stuff as mine , need to remember that everything is literal on a page

Kovu

irishh_bob wrote: »

for someone so new to this forum , your manner is both combatitive and authoritarian , thats my impression anyhows , other people will have thiers , dont worry about it , i never take anything personal on a internet forum but il still describe what i see from posts

comments such as **** happens and get over it are dismissive and undermining , hardly surprising if they are replied to with scorn

Not meaning to be rude, but that was not me that posted that. I was merely quoting without the quotation. I'll accept your opinion of me, but tbh that is usually me. I sincerely apologise if I seemed like I was coming across like an ass, i just read the post too quickly and thought that if the vet treated an untagged animal (which is apparently illegal) then you would have a better case against him. I did assume too much and I apologise for it. I still say have a PM though as (in earlier posts say) it's free in certain areas.

irishh_bob

Karen112 wrote: »

Not meaning to be rude, but that was not me that posted that. I was merely quoting without the quotation. I'll accept your opinion of me, but tbh that is usually me. I sincerely apologise if I seemed like I was coming across like an ass, i just read the post too quickly and thought that if the vet treated an untagged animal (which is apparently illegal) then you would have a better case against him. I did assume too much and I apologise for it. I still say have a PM though as (in earlier posts say) it's free in certain areas.

dont worry about it , just cause i accuse you of being here a wet week , doesnt mean im mad at ya , just cause i believed you to be combatitive doesnt mean you should quit , if thats your internet style , good for you , , no need to appologise to some annonymous poster on an internet forum , its only opinion , the internet world is completley different imo than the real world

il fight with people on boards but i wont think twice about it once im off line , very different in the real world

whelan1

so did ye ring the practice to complain?

Kovu

irishh_bob wrote: »

dont worry about it , just cause i accuse you of being here a wet week , doesnt mean im mad at ya , just cause i believed you to be combatitive doesnt mean you should quit , if thats your internet style , good for you , , no need to appologise to some annonymous poster on an internet forum , its only opinion , the internet world is completley different imo than the real world

il fight with people on boards but i wont think twice about it once im off line , very different in the real world

Me too, I am actually sincerely sorry if I did offend you, I meant it in the best way. I have studied Law as part of the course I did and have had my eyes opened to a lot of things. If you want legal advice I'd be happy to give it, I will just warn you that the legal route is not easy or cheap :-/:mad:

irishh_bob

Karen112 wrote: »

Me too, I am actually sincerely sorry if I did offend you, I meant it in the best way. I have studied Law as part of the course I did and have had my eyes opened to a lot of things. If you want legal advice I'd be happy to give it, I will just warn you that the legal route is not easy or cheap :-/:mad:

patently unescessery to appologise