Apple iPhone and iPad secretly track users location and movements.

Oracle

Interesting story on the BBC News web site about the iPhones location tracking: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13145562

namloc1980

When you buy an iPhone/iPad you sign up to all the terms and conditions including allowing Apple to track the whereabouts of your device. If people have a problem with that then the solution is not to buy an Apple product.....simples!

Oracle

It's not that simple ...

1. Most people don't read the terms and conditions.
2. Most iPad and iPhone users don't realise Apple are collecting this data and storing it on their device.
3. The terms and conditions don't explicitly state that Apple will "track the whereabouts of your device" the terms and conditions say; "We may collection information such as .... zip code, area code, unique device identifier, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used .... " That's significantly different to actually tracking your location in real-time, and storing it on your device, without your knowledge.
4. There's also a privacy issue in Apple tracking the movements of the users of its products. How many Apple customers want Apple to secretly track their movements? For example, put it another way; if there was a tick box offering you a choice to allow Apple to track you or not, how many would tick yes? The tracking is covered in the terms and conditions but not specifically allowed.

iPlop

It's a bit like the back door thing with windows so the security services can monitor your computer activity.

I don't know what all the fuss is about, any phone with gps will be logging your movements to file anyway, there would be a record of your movements either through your service provider or on the phone itself or facebook as we've seen with some new apps.People are volunteering to put up that information on the web these days.

namloc1980

Oracle wrote: »

It's not that simple ...

1. Most people don't read the terms and conditions.
2. Most iPad and iPhone users don't realise Apple are collecting this data and storing it on their device.
3. The terms and conditions don't explicitly state that Apple will "track the whereabouts of your device" the terms and conditions say; "We may collection information such as .... zip code, area code, unique device identifier, location, and the time zone where an Apple product is used .... " That's significantly different to actually tracking your location in real-time, and storing it on your device, without your knowledge.
4. There's also a privacy issue in Apple tracking the movements of the users of its products. How many Apple customers want Apple to secretly track their movements? For example, put it another way; if there was a tick box offering you a choice to allow Apple to track you or not, how many would tick yes? The tracking is covered in the terms and conditions but not specifically allowed.

1. If people can't be bothered reading the terms and conditions that's their problem, not anyone elses.
2. See point 1. Not reading the T&C's is just laziness.
3. The way Apple has worded it's T&C's means that they can track the device. I can't see a "significant difference".
4. Again if you don't want Apple to collect info on the whereabouts of your device then don't buy an Apple product. It really is that simple. As The Incredible Fridge said, your mobile phone operator can track your phone via the network.

Bottom line if you don't like the T&C's then don't enter the contract i.e. buy an Apple device in this instance. If you can't be arsed reading the T&C's then don't come crying when something you weren't expecting crops up.

Naikon

Situations like the above remind me why mass source availability is a good thing.

HugoDrax

So what? If you are not involved in criminal behavior then you have nothing to fear from your movements being tracked.
If you don't want to be tracked then don't bring a communication device with you.

Naikon

HugoDrax wrote: »

So what? If you are not involved in criminal behavior then you have nothing to fear from your movements being tracked.
If you don't want to be tracked then don't bring a communication device with you.

It is beside the point though. Every individual has a right to privacy. This is law. Say the above when you are electronically maimed for something you didn't do. This could happen. Just because something is accepted, does not make it inherently correct. Of course, Apple are smart. They buried this information so deep in legal nonsense(see the EULA) that the average "layperson" is basically unaware of being tracked. It's a smart, sneaky tactic. I will give Apple that.

My name is URL

HugoDrax wrote: »

So what? If you are not involved in criminal behavior then you have nothing to fear from your movements being tracked.

lol

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

robtri

Naikon wrote: »

It is beside the point though. Every individual has a right to privacy. This is law. .

yes everybody has the right to privacy....
but if they sign away parts of that right by their own free will whats the issue.....

I dont see the conspiracy here....

if people dont like the T&C's of apple they dont have to buy one....

Be like Nutella

if...Apple genuinely use location data on a constant basis to improve user experience in a similar way Google evolves your search experience by recording and automatically assessing your search tendencies to improve the quality of your product experience then bravo, but, why hide the admission of this 'necessary' and 'typical' process til 7500 words into the t+c's? It seems they were afraid to get out in front of the issue because of the potential backlash by let's say 'liberals'.

So the 'realist' argument seems to be: your mobile phone producer should be allowed to record your location as often as it likes (and this data should be available to an investigator brandishing a subpoena awarded by an old fecker judge:) the same way as if you agree (without reading or understanding them even if you do) to the facebook and Google t+c's who record so much of what you are and do to improve your customer experience? (and similarly and too often without need for legal pressure this collated personal data footprint is handed over to investigative bodies when they ask and you have no recourse as you agreed without reading them in 99.9% of cases to their t+c's!! It's ok for 'smart' tech savy legally informed do rights to high horse a 'well you agreed to the t+c's ' position but in all fairness I don't need t+c's to tell me what's ethical practise or right and wrong!! Most people do not know contract law...do not read t+c's whether for apple iTunes, phones or gmail and it is an unreasonable expectation by both these companies and the regulatory bodies that be that people should read AND understand the t+c's concerned! If they intensively collect this location and other data then they should proactively inform us of that upfront and absolutely guarantee us that our reasonable
rights to privacy as they stood before we engaged with their product will remain completely and irrevocably intact.... this is not a trade off scenario between safety from terrorists or any other bulksh1t zero sum game... It's an advanced phone and I want it to work well but with absolute assurance that any collection of data is for machine use without people in the loop and without fear of any handoff to second or third parties under any circumstances! Anyone who knows the technology and understands the loopholes that exist both in t+c's and in law itself and is aware if cases where these loopholes have been used abusively and is aware of what bad can come of the abuse of the access allowed to this data can only gave this viewpoint... any alterior perspective would be in the sphere of 'well do we not want our security apparatus to have the best weapons possible to fight back against crime and terrorism etc ?' .... but thus is an entirely different argument and not one which is presented by any of these companies in their t+c's! Technology/Privacy in the 21st century is an emotive and complex area of thought and argument and always has that big brother elephant in the room side to it but for good reason... technology builds upon each advance as we accept them... once we do 'pandora's' box doesn't close easily... if Google, FB and Apple all stood up and said "you morons just don't understand the technology... we need all thus data or we can't opperate" and proved it to us then that would be one thing... but they don't they just ramble forward and retrospectively protect themselves from recourse creating more and more distrust .... most people don't care how things work or why or how this stuff matters or can be abused etc etc but if you really put it on the table and discuss it in public forums as it should be and have been you'll find people are and should be sensitive to intrusions on their privacy which extends to their use of 'information technology' be that their Internet footprint or physical location 24 hours a day.

Run_to_da_hills

Looks like a class action lawsuit is being filed against Apple and rightly so. Should be interesting if there is an outcome.

BTW My IPhone 4 got nicked recently, after Reading this I don't intend replacing it with another one.

There is a difference between allowing the authorities access to digital records when suspecting crime than dumping all your movements on a secret file on your laptop giving it access to any hacker to flog it on to a third party, be it someone that wants to rob your house when he knows your daily pattern.

http://www.vision2mobile.com/news/2011/04/apple-sued-over-location-based-services-report.aspx

Wibbs

Ye do know google/android phones do the same thing? https://github.com/packetlss/android-locdump Apple get the headlines for the slightest security breach, but Android has many many more and like this latest one I'll bet you didn't know about it and it didn't get nearly so many column inches. Both track you but I'd be buying an iphone over the others. Why? The media will tell me far quicker of any apple shenanigans.

opinion guy

Wibbs wrote: »

Ye do know google/android phones do the same thing? https://github.com/packetlss/android-locdump Apple get the headlines for the slightest security breach, but Android has many many more and like this latest one I'll bet you didn't know about it and it didn't get nearly so many column inches. Both track you but I'd be buying an iphone over the others. Why? The media will tell me far quicker of any apple shenanigans.

And you do know that when you boot up an Android phone for the first time it asks you whether you wish it to log location data or not ? You have a choice to opt out

Be like Nutella

not according to the 'in studio expert' PC World Guy on Phantom FM earlier today when discussing this issue : he said that whether you agree or not they have to do it to optimise antenna use, that it's a typical necessity otherwise why would they bother? that it's part n parcel of the phone system.

opinion guy

Be like Nutella wrote: »

not according to the 'in studio expert' PC World Guy on Phantom FM earlier today when discussing this issue : he said that whether you agree or not they have to do it to optimise antenna use, that it's a typical necessity otherwise why would they bother? that it's part n parcel of the phone system.

Oh well if the guy in PC World says so......:rolleyes:

Be like Nutella

fairnuf

but I suppose my point is.. if it's not technically necessary to lug your locations then why do it

opinion guy

Be like Nutella wrote: »

fairnuf

but I suppose my point is.. if it's not technically necessary to lug your locations then why do it

The opt out thing on android tells you why. I forget though. Bascially to send you more relevant ads I think

Be like Nutella

"
Minority Report future where you walk into the mall and, since the MCP sees you've been to the health club three times a week in the last month and had lunch at the Lettuce Emporium, you're offered a Gap coupon for new pants. "

I get the marketing reasoning... don't like it but I get it

Should be possible to physically switch it off then and suffer no loss of service efficiency

same goes for the backdoor which allows spyware to be uploaded by Bluetooth etc why does the backdoor exist? A mistake? Really? Not convinced... but then again don't know enough yet.

old_aussie

namloc1980 wrote: »

When you buy an iPhone/iPad you sign up to all the terms and conditions including allowing Apple to track the whereabouts of your device. If people have a problem with that then the solution is not to buy an Apple product.....simples!

What if you buy the iPhone second hand privately?

How can the terms of the first owners contract apply to the second owner?

humanji

old_aussie wrote: »

What if you buy the iPhone second hand privately?

How can the terms of the first owners contract apply to the second owner?

It's terms of use, not terms of purchase, afaik.

Wibbs

opinion guy wrote: »

And you do know that when you boot up an Android phone for the first time it asks you whether you wish it to log location data or not ? You have a choice to opt out

Actually the iphone does too, but in connection with the camera geotagging. I've switched off photo geotagging and since this story broke looked at this log file and there's a whole heap of areas I've made calls in not logged so that seems to do it.

My main point was that Apple tend to suffer from tall poppy syndrome in the press(and among nerds). This is nada to do with the techie pros and cons of each system. Stepping back and looking objectively at the android and iphone, the former has had more than a few issues with security and dodgy apps and data logging, yet apple get more column inches for any breach. Hence for security reasons the average layman John Q Taxpayer on the street is better off with an iphone, simply because any security risk will be flagged in the media much more quickly. Try it today. Ask ten non nerd people about what they know of smart phone security. I'll put money down the fruit company's name will be at the tip of their tongue yet will know nada of various issues with Android.

Anyone remember or hear about this on the main media?
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/android_vulnerability_so_dangerous_shouldnt_use_web_browser.php I didn't and I'd be nerdier than the average Joe. Imagine the same on the iphone. Front page, hold the presses time.
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/186720/malware_android_apps_threaten_mobile_security.html
http://coalgeology.com/stock-market-research-googles-goog-android-security-issues/15116/
http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/google-releases-android-security-patch-following-attacks-23013

And that's after a really cheap and cheerful search.

opinion guy

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually the iphone does too, but in connection with the camera geotagging. I've switched off photo geotagging and since this story broke looked at this log file and there's a whole heap of areas I've made calls in not logged so that seems to do it.

My main point was that Apple tend to suffer from tall poppy syndrome in the press(and among nerds). This is nada to do with the techie pros and cons of each system. Stepping back and looking objectively at the android and iphone, the former has had more than a few issues with security and dodgy apps and data logging, yet apple get more column inches for any breach. Hence for security reasons the average layman John Q Taxpayer on the street is better off with an iphone, simply because any security risk will be flagged in the media much more quickly. Try it today. Ask ten non nerd people about what they know of smart phone security. I'll put money down the fruit company's name will be at the tip of their tongue yet will know nada of various issues with Android.

Anyone remember or hear about this on the main media?
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/android_vulnerability_so_dangerous_shouldnt_use_web_browser.php I didn't and I'd be nerdier than the average Joe. Imagine the same on the iphone. Front page, hold the presses time.
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/186720/malware_android_apps_threaten_mobile_security.html
http://coalgeology.com/stock-market-research-googles-goog-android-security-issues/15116/
http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/google-releases-android-security-patch-following-attacks-23013

And that's after a really cheap and cheerful search.

Ok but I don't think those android problems are as serious as Apple tracking. The browser thing wouldn't really conern me to be honest cause I don't browse much, the dodgy app thing doesn't both me either since I'm careful about what I download. The Apple problem is something I ahve no control over its built into the phone and does not depend on use.

Apparently there is a patch by the way

Wibbs

opinion guy wrote: »

Ok but I don't think those android problems are as serious as Apple tracking. The browser thing wouldn't really conern me to be honest cause I don't browse much, the dodgy app thing doesn't both me either since I'm careful about what I download. The Apple problem is something I ahve no control over its built into the phone and does not depend on use.

Talk about avoiding the point and incorrect to boot. Maybe think of the general user not just what you would or wouldnt use or do? The browser issue was a serious concern and there were at least 50 dodgy apps knocking around.

The point is the general phone using public are far more likely to hear/see/read about an iphone issue than an android one in the mainstream media. Yet android has had a bigger issue with security from the get go and still does. Like I said Apple tend to suffer from tall poppy syndrome in the press and among nerds.

I can see why at times, but IMHO Google are far more pernicious and invasive, yet claim being "open" and have the motto "don't be evil". This is a company that "by mistake" was harvesting IP's and other info while driving the streets in google vans. Hell they've built a worldwide on the ground photographic map, logging people's interests and searches on the largest media source the world has ever known, yet I don't see people going too batshít about that big brotherism. People are funny buggers. Me I'll take some clueless ponce irritating me over his latest macbook air purchase over Googles shenanigans any day of the week.

OK lets look at this further, say your some non techie person and you say OK to androids location service. Easily done. Probably more do than don't, maybe if the shop sets up the phone for them or they buy second hand. Anyway its now running. Have a read of this http://developer.android.com/guide/topics/location/obtaining-user-location.html

Google allow apps to harvest this data.


Now you buy an iphone. Leave location services on.

Apple does not allow apps to harvest this data nor do they harvest it themselves

And Apple are the suspicious ones? Eh helllo folks?

Apparently there is a patch by the way

Dunno why as all you do if you've an iPhone is go to settings/general/location services/ switch to off. Well I can't speak for others but it defo disables the location services on mine anyway(iOs4 3gs). Maybe a patch to put a warning? Cool and a welcome transparency.

In any case, it is not spyware, it's not sent anywhere and even if it was(its not) if you've password protected your backup it's not readable anyway(if you've even backed up in the first place). Otherwise massive storm in a nerdy teacup.

Have a read of an informed commentator, not some hack looking for a headline. https://alexlevinson.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/3-major-issues-with-the-latest-iphone-tracking-discovery/

Hey I think apple can be right twats. A lot of their products are basically fashion items masquerading as tech and the whole ooooh they're so cooool wa best summed up by that Simpsons episode, but the beady eye and press paranoia about them is getting old at this stage.

HivemindXX

Wibbs wrote: »

In any case, it is not spyware, it's not sent anywhere and even if it was(its not) if you've password protected your backup it's not readable anyway(if you've even backed up in the first place). Otherwise massive storm in a nerdy teacup.

Why record it then? Do the T&Cs allow Apple to fetch this information from your phone and provide to the police / your employer / jealous lover whenever they want? Employer and jealous lover would probably have to become "Business Partners" for the purpose of this, which status I'm sure could be available for a reasonable fee.

I don't see how this is not fodder for the CT forum. A handful of tech companies (and anyone they care to share this information with) know everywhere you go, who you call, what music you listen to, what TV shows you like, what you read and what you write. To top this off they probably have photographs of your home and workplace.

When this subject comes up paid operatives of the illuminati normal people post that this is for the greater good...if you don't have anything to hide you shouldn't be worried...only idiots/lazy people are suprised/worried by this.

Wibbs

HivemindXX wrote: »

Why record it then? Do the T&Cs allow Apple to fetch this information from your phone and provide to the police / your employer / jealous lover whenever they want? Employer and jealous lover would probably have to become "Business Partners" for the purpose of this, which status I'm sure could be available for a reasonable fee.

Nope they don't. In fact if you read the links one makes the point that to do so would be illegal in California where Apple are registered, opening them up to a government lawsuit and criminal charges. But hey lets not let hype get in the way of paranoia or the actual facts of the case.

I don't see how this is not fodder for the CT forum.

I never said it wasn't, but what I find funny is some would point Apple out as the bad boys but would be happy to praise android from google who are so much less secure and if you OK to their TandC's do pass on the info and allow third party apps to do so.

A handful of tech companies (and anyone they care to share this information with) know everywhere you go, who you call, what music you listen to, what TV shows you like, what you read and what you write. To top this off they probably have photographs of your home and workplace.

Oh god... No. I've read the data from my phone(before I disabled the "feature") Its not secret, its not encrypted(unless the user encrypts it) and it doesn't transmit across any network. It was pretty damn vague and if the lizards are after me good luck in finding me going by that crappy map. It doesn't have anything to do with my music choices or what I read or write. And no it doesnt have photos of my home. Jesus.

When this subject comes up paid operatives of the illuminati normal people post that this is for the greater good...if you don't have anything to hide you shouldn't be worried...

Well I for one think that crap too. Hence I would fight the introduction of compulsory ID cards, but I think the iphone thing is a hyped up storm in a teacup. Security wise and tracking wise you do more most days than any phone logs. Hell say OK to an Android phone and you're being tracked all over the place. Log on to a website, google some subject, use your crdeit card, the list is long. Unless youre living in a cave growing your beard and eating lichens and beans you're being tracked. Hey I'm as paranoid as the next guy, I just prefer logical and informed paranoia.

HivemindXX

Wibbs wrote: »

And no it doesnt have photos of my home. Jesus.

Google has pictures of 100s of millions of peoples homes and their locations. We've already established that Apple knows everywhere you go so they can probably have a good guess at the location of your home.

Since Google "accidentally" recorded the MAC address of every wifi device they came across when their cars drove all over the world they also know where you are when you check your mail or search the web even if you don't have a smartphone.

Wibbs

HivemindXX wrote: »

Google has pictures of 100s of millions of peoples homes and their locations. We've already established that Apple knows everywhere you go so they can probably have a good guess at the location of your home.

Yea but Apple aint google and vice versa. They really dont get on. Serious competitors in the market.

Now numero uno and I'll spell this out for those at the back:

Apple. Don't. Know. Where. You. Go.

OK? Capiche? We have NOT established that they do. Maybe in your opinion and that's fine, but not in reality, so lets deal in facts shall we? The facts are these, geolocation data is collected and resides on the phone in a normally hidden to the users file. It is backed up to the users PC during a sync where it can be encrypted if you so choose. It does not get transmitted to anyone. Third party apps can't access it and the info does not contain "who you call, what music you listen to, what TV shows you like, what you read and what you write". Oh if you have your phone stolen any mouthbreathing scumbag can get all that from your phone(unless you have it locked down), but not Steve Jobs. However that potential does exist if you're running Android and say yes to the datalogging.

Since Google "accidentally" recorded the MAC address of every wifi device they came across when their cars drove all over the world they also know where you are when you check your mail or search the web even if you don't have a smartphone.

Lets revisit those "facts" too. Yes they did and more and well out of order it was too, but only on unsecured networks. And if anyone is running an unsecured network they're window licking morons who deserve to be probed by ET. Hell I reckon ET would pass on that unless they were doing an idiot survey of earth