How Unqualified are taking teachers jobs

amybabes

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/how-unqualified-are-taking-teachers-jobs-2628691.html

PRIMARY school children are being taught by hundreds of unqualified teachers, while graduates struggle to find work.
The scale of the scandal is underlined by the revelation that 400 people with no teaching qualifications worked for at least 50 days in primary schools in the current school year.
The 50 days represents more than a quarter of the full school year.
Figures obtained by the Irish Independent also show that half of the country's 3,200 primary schools employed an unqualified person for up to a week in the September-February period.
It is the first time the scale of unqualified teaching levels have been revealed.
And it raises serious questions about how the Department of Education has allowed unqualified teachers to continue to work in schools in such large numbers, for so long.
There is no formal system to provide cover for teachers who are sick or on leave, and principals often struggle to find a replacement at short notice.
The biggest losers are the tens of thousands of pupils taught by someone with no proper qualifications, for maybe months at a time.
The quality of teaching has been identified as a key factor in how well students learn and how they advance in school.
The shocking figures are published as teachers gather for their annual conferences, with job cuts and graduate unemployment on their agendas.
Problems arise when schools have to replace teachers on absences -- sick leave, maternity leave or career breaks.
These could range from one day up to an entire school year.
Large numbers of retired teachers are also used to fill these slots. For example, retired primary teachers, on an average pension of €30,000, filled 975 positions in primary schools, ranging from a single day to more than 50.
It includes 409 retired teachers doing between one and five days, and 51 retired teachers filling in for at least 50 days.
At post-primary level, retired teachers occupied a total of 305 substitute or temporary positions, including 143 for at least 50 days.
It is more difficult to get an accurate picture of the number of people with no qualifications in post-primary schools.
A teacher may have the required qualification for second level, but may not be teaching in their specialised subject.
The Irish Independent submitted a Freedom of Information (FoI) request to the Department of Education. It sought information on the number of retired or unqualified teachers employed for up to five days to more than 50 between September 1 and February 28 last.
Threat
The Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO) has threatened industrial action in schools where unqualified persons are employed from 2013.
The INTO threat was "post-dated" at a time of teacher shortages a few years ago.
Recent cutbacks -- 700 jobs in primary schools are being axed in September -- have turned a teacher shortage into a surplus.
INTO estimates that hundreds of newly qualified teachers are without regular work, while another 2,000 primary teachers graduating this year face bleak job prospects.
There will be about 1,600 new graduates this year with a post-primary teaching qualification.
INTO president Jim Higgins wants panels of qualified teachers set up to fill vacancies. Mr Higgins said there should be strict time limits on the employment of a retired teacher or unqualified persons.
However, he said this was only a temporary measure and called for the implementation of the Teaching Council Act, which would only allow registered teachers to teach in schools.
Education Minister Ruairi Quinn said it was "unacceptable for retired people to take up such positions, save in very exceptional circumstances".
- Katherine Donnelly
Irish Independent

A good example of this with people I know personally.
Lived with both of them in Australia, both went home at the same time - Christmas 2009.
At the time of returning home:
1) 25 year old girl, did Primary School teaching in St. Pats, had 2 years full time teaching experience in Ireland, a year in Australia and a year in New Zealand. (4 years full time primary teaching experience overall)
2)24 year old guy, did a degree in engineering, worked in construction and engineering post graduation, travelled for a year. Decided he wanted to go back to collage as a mature student and do primary school teaching. No experience or anything with teaching or kids. Former county footballer.

2 months after they both got home....
Which one is working in a school? Yep you guessed it, the guy with no experience. Got a 5 week substitute teaching position in his local school, GAA contacts, headmaster was a good friend of the parents, knew him through football in the community.
The girl was applying for everything and anything all over the country and had submitted an application for the same role!!

Seems to be alot of that going on, especially in the rural schools from my knowledge. Hopefully those with actual teaching qualifications will now get preference on jobs, temporary or permanent.

MagicSean

If there's so many graduates and smart people unemployed in this country, why do I still have to explain my sandwich order three times to the girl in the deli? Surely they could be hiring people who speak English with all the choice in the job pool.

It may be "unacceptable" for retired teachers to take positions, but if they're damn good at it and asked back then they'd hardly say no

amybabes

That's the whole being over-qualified for a job debate. Employers know that those with degrees on the look out for career related jobs are only in minimum wage catering/bar/retail jobs as a means to an end and would be gone in the morning if one came up. Training/staff turn over is costly for employers.

Have you never heard of anyone you know being told they were over-qualified for a role?? I've been told 3 or 4 times! Despite me pleading that I didn't care and I'd work my backside off for minimum wage and be delighted with it.

NIMAN

bluewolf wrote: »

It may be "unacceptable" for retired teachers to take positions, but if they're damn good at it and asked back then they'd hardly say no

When you retire from your job, imho you should not be allowed back into it, not with so many teachers out there. How are the young teachers going to get experience?

Don't retire if you still wanna work. OK, even if you are good at it, you can't go on forever, so the system will have to learn to live without your talents some day, so just leave and relax, and enjoy your retirement.

mikemac

This is what your unions are supposed to represent you for. For all the bluster in that article from the INTO they are doing very little.
Makes you wonder what's the point in paying subs

The Irish National Teachers' Organisation (INTO) has threatened industrial action in schools where unqualified persons are employed from 2013.
The INTO threat was "post-dated" at a time of teacher shortages a few years ago.

The Department of Education must be laughing at the unions right now. When did unions become so weak?

Azureus

I always wondered how much this went on. I know a couple of friends of mine who are working unqualified as teachers, and although they are good at their jobs and I love to see that they're working, I do think its strange that they're raking it in as subs without any training.
At least they are getting experience etc, and have got the intention to train up, but I wonder how many people just take it as a sideline thing at the cost of qualified teachers?

Il Trap

NIMAN wrote: »

When you retire from your job, imho you should not be allowed back into it, not with so many teachers out there. How are the young teachers going to get experience?

Don't retire if you still wanna work. OK, even if you are good at it, you can't go on forever, so the system will have to learn to live without your talents some day, so just leave and relax, and enjoy your retirement.

Wouldn't be anything to do with the €80-90 an hour rate that retired teachers get, would it?

I know a man who is four years retired but still works 5 hours a week! Meanwhile, younger qualified teachers are losing their hours. Absolutely ridiculous.

mp3guy

amybabes wrote: »

2 months after they both got home....
Which one is working in a school? Yep you guessed it, the guy with no experience. Got a 5 week substitute teaching position in his local school, GAA contacts, headmaster was a good friend of the parents, knew him through football in the community.
The girl was applying for everything and anything all over the country and had submitted an application for the same role!!

That's probably more due to the fact that there is a severe lack of male teachers more than anything else...

MagicMarker

Sure how qualified do you need to be to teach kids how to apply glitter to a piece of coloured paper?

Il Trap

mp3guy wrote: »

That's probably more due to the fact that there is a severe lack of male teachers more than anything else...

:rolleyes: Sure it is....

Bruthal

k_mac wrote: »

If there's so many graduates and smart people unemployed in this country, why do I still have to explain my sandwich order three times to the girl in the deli? Surely they could be hiring people who speak English with all the choice in the job pool.

Is there a link between being smart and having fluent english?

Nolanger

k_mac wrote: »

If there's so many graduates and smart people

Graduates aren't smart they're intelligent. Smart people are the rich bankers.

fastrac

A blind eye has been turned to this practice because most teachers have got jobs for family menbers and friends out of it. It would be a major feather in Minister Howlins cap if he put yet another Irish Sacred Cow out to grass.Teachers cry salty tears about the pay and funding cuts caused by the reckless behaviour of other sectors. Here is their big chance to walk the walk and show us all they are ready to do business with their new bosses in the I.M.F.

muppetkiller

In fairness these 'unqualified' people probably have real Degrees in Maths or Biology etc. , not like the teachers with the useless Arts Degrees and Hdips.:p

Dwellingdweller

muppetkiller wrote: »

In fairness these 'unqualified' people probably have real Degrees in Maths or Biology etc. , not like the teachers with the useless Arts Degrees and Hdips.:p

Here we go with the (f)arts debate. :rolleyes:

landsleaving

muppetkiller wrote: »

In fairness these 'unqualified' people probably have real Degrees in Maths or Biology etc. , not like the teachers with the useless Arts Degrees and Hdips.:p

Useless my ass, they got jobs out of their 'useless' degrees!

MagicSean

muppetkiller wrote: »

In fairness these 'unqualified' people probably have real Degrees in Maths or Biology etc. , not like the teachers with the useless Arts Degrees and Hdips.:p

It take smore than a knowledge of maths to teach children

Bruthal

landsleaving wrote: »

Useless my ass, they got jobs out of their 'useless' degrees!

Yes to say a degree in the arts is useless and actually believe it, is a bit silly.

flutered

fastrac wrote: »

A blind eye has been turned to this practice because most teachers have got jobs for family menbers and friends out of it. It would be a major feather in Minister Howlins cap if he put yet another Irish Sacred Cow out to grass.Teachers cry salty tears about the pay and funding cuts caused by the reckless behaviour of other sectors. Here is their big chance to walk the walk and show us all they are ready to do business with their new bosses in the I.M.F.

parents in a local primary school say that the ass principal have a family member and the family members intended working there.

muppetkiller

Excellent the bait has been taken lol

mp3guy

Il Trap wrote: »

:rolleyes: Sure it is....

Yeah, it is actually. Here's 5 sources:

http://www.ippn.ie/index.php?view=article&catid=36:news-archive&id=124:donec-sapien-metus&option=com_content&Itemid=101

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/abolishing-irish-rule-wont-close-gender-gap-in-teaching-1402416.html

http://www.examiner.ie/story/ireland/gbqlmhgbkf/rss2/

http://www.postgrad.ie/call-for-more-male-primary-teachers.html

http://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/GenderImbalancePrimaryTeaching.pdf

You're welcome.

landsleaving

muppetkiller wrote: »

Excellent the bait has been taken lol

If only I had a maths desgree, so I could put two and two together :pac:

MagicSean

robbie7730 wrote: »

Is there a link between being smart and having fluent english?

Yes.

Bruthal

k_mac wrote: »

Yes.

Really? So a person can not be intelligent unless they can speak english? Very good

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

Is there a link between being smart and having fluent english?

The point isn't that they're not smart enough to make a deli roll, it's that they don't have enough English to know what you're asking for. If I went to Spain and started working in a deli, sure I'd be as smart as everyone else there, but without fluent Spanish I wouldn't know what people were asking for. Pointing at stuff will only get you so far.

MagicSean

robbie7730 wrote: »

Really? So a person can not be intelligent unless they can speak english? Very good

Don't be ridiculous. A person cannot be fluent in a language without being smart. Even if it is their own language.

Also a smart person would not work in the service industry if they could not understand the language they would be dealing in.

Bruthal

k_mac wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous. A person cannot be fluent in a language without being smart. Even if it is their own language.

Also a smart person would not work in the service industry if they could not understand the language they would be dealing in.

You said if this country has so many smart people why can the deli girl not understand you or why can they not get someone that can. I say it has nothing to do with her being intelligent or not. Its a completely different arguement. Unless she just can not speak english because she had learning difficulties, but somehow i think its because she is not from ireland.

In the same way a person from ireland thats not too intelligent could work in the deli shop and easily understand your order.

A person cannot be fluent in a language without being smart

I dont think a person has to be very smart to learn their home language.

Bruthal

true-or-false wrote: »

The point isn't that they're not smart enough to make a deli roll, it's that they don't have enough English to know what you're asking for. If I went to Spain and started working in a deli, sure I'd be as smart as everyone else there, but without fluent Spanish I wouldn't know what people were asking for. Pointing at stuff will only get you so far.

That was my point, its nothing to do with intelligence with the deli thing. But the post i quoted suggested it had.

Killer Pigeon

Derm Unions strike again!

nursextreme

bluewolf wrote: »

It may be "unacceptable" for retired teachers to take positions, but if they're damn good at it and asked back then they'd hardly say no

There is no maybe about it! It is completely unacceptable for retired teachers to take positions full stop. What do you have to do? Drive a steak stake through their hearts to keep them retired.

Bruthal

k_mac wrote: »

Also a smart person would not work in the service industry if they could not understand the language they would be dealing in.

So what your saying is if you needed a job, and were offered it, but knew you were not ideal for it but could get by in it, you would turn it down?

Maybe she is more of a smart person than you think, she has a job at the end of the day. Many people apply for jobs they are not ideal for and do what thay can to get it.

Maybe she was smart enough to do a job some irish wont do because they think the wages are too low, or a deli job is below them. Do you think she has that job because the employer does not like employing irish people?

Bruthal

nursextreme wrote: »

There is no maybe about it! It is completely unacceptable for retired teachers to take positions full stop. What do you have to do? Drive a steak through their hearts to keep them retired.

No they would eat that, a stake might be the job:D

looksee

Il Trap wrote: »

Wouldn't be anything to do with the €80-90 an hour rate that retired teachers get, would it?

I know a man who is four years retired but still works 5 hours a week! Meanwhile, younger qualified teachers are losing their hours. Absolutely ridiculous.

Really! Yay, I will be retired from teaching next year (with no, or minimal, pension) that kind of money would be very nice!

seriouslysweet

Same goes on at secondary level, one of our French teachers did maths and business in college, teaches them and french. Needless to say hates the two fluent students in the class!

nursextreme

robbie7730 wrote: »

No they would eat that, a stake might be the job:D

My mi-steak. Back to School for me I think:D

byhookorbycrook

At face value ,this is dreadful,so many teachers out of work and not even getting some subbing.

When I qualified in the 80s we queued outside the INTO office each monrning looking for a job, any job.At one stage I was heading to an island off Donegal from Cork, to take work for a week.(Something more local turned up,so I had that instead, passed the island onto a friend nearer to it.)

Many of our newly qualified teachers are post grads and are not in a position or not willing to travel like my group was. I know three NQTs in Munster who have turned down work because it's not local. Gaelscoileanna find it very hard to get subs.

If a teacher rings in sick at 8 a.m and the principal rings several teachers all of whom decline the job,what does the principal do?Split the class into already crowded rooms and then try and find work for them for the day?Or else , call the local retired teacher who knows what they are at and will teach the class, rather than just keep them busy?

If it's more than a day or two, then most principals will spend a lot of time trying to get a sub,of course, but for a day, I don't see an issue if no NQT wants it.

invinciblePRSTV

Irish schools are hotbeds of nepotism. In the teaching and lecturing forum a while back there was someone with no teaching qualifications, but had a science degree i think, asking about how to teach the kids. Turns out her mommy (or was it aunty? can't recall) was principal at the school and she landed a handy number whilst 100s if not thousands of newly qualified teachers are desperate to land a position like it.

Typical Ireland, not what you know but who know.

fontanalis

It could be worse; unqualified people could get a job in the Department of Finance or other important areas.

Salty

muppetkiller wrote: »

In fairness these 'unqualified' people probably have real Degrees in Maths or Biology etc. , not like the teachers with the useless Arts Degrees and Hdips.:p

From personal experience as a student, I wouldn't say this is always true.
Last year when I was in 5th year, the honours maths teacher was sick and was absent for around 2 months. Rather than hiring an actual maths teacher to fill in for her, the school took on a man with a degree in engineering.

Biggest disaster of a teacher I've ever encountered. He was absolutely useless. Needless to say, someone with a so-called "useless" arts degree would have definitely fared much better and we would have learned a lot more, which has been the case since he was replaced.

Bruthal

nursextreme wrote: »

My mi-steak. Back to School for me I think:D

seriouslysweet

Transparency needed, we should be able to clock in these Teaching Council numbers and see who we are being educated by!

Sonnenblumen

Bloody awful, hiring retired teachers whilst new graduate teachers seek opps. Why isn't the union doing more at school level?

Smacks of cronyism/cliques?

nursextreme

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Smacks of cronyism/cliques?

That's Irish unions for ya :rolleyes:

ArtSmart

posting for future ref

RichieC

k_mac wrote: »

If there's so many graduates and smart people unemployed in this country, why do I still have to explain my sandwich order three times to the girl in the deli? Surely they could be hiring people who speak English with all the choice in the job pool.

This has never happened me. honestly.

Any key?

foookin hell
being a teacher is a really tough job. The problem isn't that retired teachers are subbing its the fact that there are a bunch of young,enthusisastic qualified teachers coming out of college who should be doing that subbing because in reality that is the only way they will earn money for the next few years.

Pamcalm

Hi all,
I would like to know what peoples opinions are on this matter or if anyone is aware of or have had experience of this in teaching. I've been teaching a number of years now and have witnessed numerous cases of nepotism in teaching. I have experienced principals putting relatives in positions of employment where they are not fully qualified. I have also seen same principals using their influence to help relatives obtain positions of employment in other schools. When so many qualified teachers are out of work at the moment,I feel that they are being cheated on in what is supposed to be a fair and democratic system. The INTO has a stance on this but I feel that this is being blatantly ignored by boards of management etc.
Thanks all,

Please don't bump old threads and please choose one forum to start your discussion and stick to it, rather than posting the same question across multiple fora, that is considered spamming.