In the search for the Voice of God, some believe Gregorian chants are preferable to f

Donatello

If they had their way, they would storm the parish churches and hurl all the guitars and drums into the street because they believe substituting modern music for ancient music has eroded worship.

Father Z adds:

[Do I hear an "Amen!"? I remember the old quip that the true renewal of the liturgy will begin with the breaking of the last guitar over the head of the last ex-nun minister of Holy Communion. Facetious, I know. Some guitars are very valuable and have their proper place.]

Read the article here. Vote in the poll.

Festus

I would like more drums and guitars

Gregorian chant is cerebral and spritual.

Drums and guitars visceral and sensuous.

Admittedly chant can become visceral and sensuous - Enigma have made a fortune with it, as have others - but that requires a beat rather than a metered rhythm.

Gregorian chant is something special, it should be brought back into general worship

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

Guitars at the Liturgy are great when the right spiritual and appropriate modern liturgical music is played on them. I've heard some serious non-american/ pop influenced guitar hymns in my time that are great.

The American styled pop Christian music is brilliant outside of the mass for me and I listen to it all the time

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

The document on the Sacred Liturgy of Vatican II said the following:

116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

So, what happened?

Check Art. 30:

30. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.

Songs. Folksy songs? Why not! Guitars and drums? Why not! Gregorian chant? Naaa.

That is the thing about many of the documents of Vatican II. They need to be read faithfully in the light of Tradition, otherwise, one can justify all sorts of nonsense by appealing to the texts themselves. And that is what happened.

strobe

I would like more drums and guitars

Not a Christian but I fukking love the Gregorian chants. A lot of it is incredibly moving and technically impressive. The modern hippy guitar/drum circle Christpop is just cringe inducingly embarrassing to listen to. Of the few things you guys do good, architecture and music was right up there, and you are ruining both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD3VsesSBsw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fMHms5Cvsw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JFGdH5wgCs

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

strobe wrote: »

Not a Christian but I fukking love the Gregorian chants. A lot of it is incredibly moving and technically impressive. The modern hippy guitar/drum circle Christpop is just cringe inducingly embarrassing to listen to. Of the few things you guys do good, architecture and music was right up there, and you are ruining both.

Indeed. It is interesting that just as the Catholic Church was dumping at the local level (or at least ignoring) much of its rich sacred musical heritage in favour of folksy music (to attract those 'in the world'), 'the world' picked up the music and included it in its computer games (e.g. Halo) and also in its music charts. It's a fact that today, chant CDs sell many copies and make the classical charts and so on. People do like this music. I wish it could be widely used instead of the little songs sung by little people with little voices at Mass each Sunday. Everything has been so dumbed down and childified.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

I should really have made this a Catholic-only poll, although that is not really allowed. It would give a more meaningful result.

Having non-Catholics vote would be like asking me about the style of Muslim worship. I might have my opinion, but what value is it, given that I do not understand or have any formation in Muslim worship?

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

When Gregorian chant came out. It contained sacred words, but it was new to the ear. It was then considered modern and not rejected. Todays music is no different. Different style of music with sacred words = modern and sacred.

Neither gregorian or modern music is old and all sacred music should be considered modern. There is nothing wrong with either. I suppose that modern music should be fitted to the mass and be ''sacred'' or ''angelic'' as opposed to group/retreat music which only serves its purpose in that circle.

I see where your coming from, but your taking it a little too far without thinkin about it first.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Onesimus wrote: »

When Gregorian chant came out. It contained sacred words, but it was new to the ear. It was then considered modern and not rejected. Todays music is no different. Different style of music with sacred words = modern and sacred.

Neither gregorian or modern music is old and all sacred music should be considered modern. There is nothing wrong with either. I suppose that modern music should be fitted to the mass and be ''sacred'' or ''angelic'' as opposed to group/retreat music which only serves its purpose in that circle.

I see where your coming from, but your taking it a little too far without thinkin about it first.

Chant actually is similar to the worship in the old Testament with the Psalms which King David sang. Thus there is continuity. Chant is timeless. 'Modern' music actually ages pretty quickly. One can think of the stuff that came out in the 70s and is still being used in some places, along with felt banners and sandals.

There is a place for both sacred music and the more popular 'modern' guitar stuff etc... The Holy Mass ought to have the sacred music of the Church which is fitting for the holy sacrifice of the Mass. The popular music can be used for youth retreats, praise and worship and so on. The confusion and disorder comes when people try to turn the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into an evangelical praise and worship session. I've seen that done here in Ireland.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Koslpm2_t-k

He talks about how chant echoes back to the worship of King David with his harp in the Temple.



-

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

Donatello wrote: »

Chant actually is similar to the worship in the old Testament with the Psalms which King David sang. Thus there is continuity. Chant is timeless. 'Modern' music actually ages pretty quickly. One can think of the stuff that came out in the 70s and is still being used in some places, along with felt banners and sandals.

There is a place for both sacred music and the more popular 'modern' guitar stuff etc... The Holy Mass ought to have the sacred music of the Church which is fitting for the holy sacrifice of the Mass. The popular music can be used for youth retreats, praise and worship and so on. The confusion and disorder comes when people try to turn the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into an evangelical praise and worship session. I've seen that done here in Ireland.

It is ''believed'' but not ''proven'' to go back to the time of King David on the harp. Chant in itself evolved over the years, you had different forms of it and different breathing techniques and timing used in different ways. Therefore just like the 60s progressed to the 70's chant progressed from its own era into the ''modern gregorian era'', we also had the ambrosian chant era too see? it evolves and changed but remains timeless. Chant is timeless, but so is all music that is sacred. Music in and of itself is timeless when its sacred and directed towards Christ. Where it does and does not fit is another question. But there are definitely chants and guitar music that do suit the Liturgy however bare such authentic and sacred sounding music is these days.

So what about the sacred Irish music that the priests sing on their album? I've heard those played beautifully on Irish tin whistle and guitar? is that not sacred? come on!!! dont be living in the one box. There are like I said sacred modern music that suits the mass and ones that dont. If you want my preference I will choose gregorian as it has its pride of place. But even Pope Benedict XVI in recent years has called for a ''reform'' of modern Liturgical music. Just take a listen to his last album ''alma mater''. all the composers of the album where using all different types of music from the modern classical era.

Rock Gospel = retreats/prayer groups
Gregorian/classical guitars and instruments worthy of the sacred meditative sound = Divine Liturgy/mass/oratory/adoration

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Onesimus wrote: »

So what about the sacred Irish music that the priests sing on their album? I've heard those played beautifully on Irish tin whistle and guitar? is that not sacred? come on!!! dont be living in the one box. There are like I said sacred modern music that suits the mass and ones that dont. If you want my preference I will choose gregorian as it has its pride of place. But even Pope Benedict XVI in recent years has called for a ''reform'' of modern Liturgical music. Just take a listen to his last album ''alma mater''. all the composers of the album where using all different types of music from the modern classical era.

Rock Gospel = retreats/prayer groups
Gregorian/classical guitars and instruments worthy of the sacred meditative sound = Divine Liturgy/mass/oratory/adoration

Benedict XVI has good taste as well as a keen eye on tradition. None of his reform ideas would include tamborines, drums, or guitars.

Plowman wrote: »

It also helps that people understand modern music whereas chant would reduce the congregation's participation in the Mass to dumbly sitting and standing on cue.
But the Mass is about praise and worship too. I think you are being too rigid and prescriptive about what counts as sacred music, Donatello.

Smashing someone's head with a guitar? How Christian.

I think he was being humorous. I don't think he would advocate such things.

Listening prayerfully to chanting of the liturgical texts and with heart raised to God is hardly sitting dumb, as you put it.

I recommend a book by Martin Mosebach, entitled 'The Heresy of Formlessness'. He writes about the music of the liturgy and so on. Sadly, I can't find the relevant section, but he makes the point about the Church's sacred music as being part of the liturgical action itself, rather than a distracting add on or entertainment, as sadly too much music at Mass is. With chant and sacred polyphony, the words of the Mass itself are put into song and this is prayer. There's another book, but it is fierce expensive: Benedict XVI and the Sacred Liturgy. I had a read over a bit of it a while back.

Whilst there are various kinds of music that can be used in the liturgy, Holy Church holds that chant is the norm. The authentic reform of the liturgy will come when the directives of Vatican II are implemented correctly, and that is what Benedict XVI is trying to do. None of that authentic reform involves guitars or felt banners.

116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

Slav

Christus resurrexit!

Onesimus wrote: »

When Gregorian chant came out. It contained sacred words, but it was new to the ear. It was then considered modern and not rejected. Todays music is no different.

Gregorian chant did not appear out of the thin air. It has deep roots in Temple liturgical music, it developed within the Church and specifically as liturgical music. What was described here as "guitars and drums" is completely foreign to the church and liturgy. Maybe it can be adapted to liturgy but I cannot see a reason why when we already have music born and developed in Liturgy.

It is ''believed'' but not ''proven'' to go back to the time of King David on the harp.

It would not be possible to "prove" it even if we had recordings of King David performing live. However the connection between the Christian chants and the Temple music is not beyond the world music history research and there is plenty of evidence to support this view.

Different style of music with sacred words = modern and sacred.

Not necessarily. Does not work for me anyway. For example, that sort of music you can hear on Spirit FM only makes me laugh and I can't help it. Remove the "sacred" words from it and it would become normal modern music (still rather crappy one but OK for the radio). Put that "sacred" words back in and it sounds pathetic and plain silly, I just can't take it seriously. Perhaps it's just my bad taste but there are many of us, I personally know many anyway.

Donatello wrote: »

they believe substituting modern music for ancient music has eroded worship.

I think the cause is confused with the effect here. It's not the modern music that "eroded" worship but the changed style of worship made it possible for the modern music to come to the church as it suits this worship better.

Liturgical hymn is a prayer. Can a Gregorian chant be a prayer? Certainly, yes. Can a pop song be a prayer? I'm sure it can too. Is there any difference between these two prayers? I think there is and it's huge.

Monophonic Gregorian chant only provides a canvas and a rather neutral one. It is our work to fill it with prayer. It's you and the congregation who drive the prayer.

Harmonised music usually has all the emotional fillings already: it knows how to make you feel rejoiced or how to make you make you feel penitential and everything in between and it serves it to you ready to consume. It's the ready made prayer that drives you and the whole congregation.

Speaking of the Catholic worship, if a particular congregation does not mind or even prefers that "instant food" of worship then sooner or later "guitars and drums" will appear in that church.

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

Yes Gregorian grew within the Church but so did modern Liturgical music as the people of Church are the Church and part of its body, thus it ''grew within the Church''.

You may not like modern liturgical music ( and I'm talking about the decent stuff ) but you can not confine us to your own tastes which are on a one way street.

I prefer Gregorian/modern liturgical music that is angelic and suits the mass, such as Franz Schuberts classical piece ''Ave Maria''. He was modern of his time and wrote music according to the secular stuff he heard ''on the radio of his day'' so to speak.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Onesimus wrote: »

Yes Gregorian grew within the Church but so did modern Liturgical music as the people of Church are the Church and part of its body, thus it ''grew within the Church''.

You may not like modern liturgical music ( and I'm talking about the decent stuff ) but you can not confine us to your own tastes which are on a one way street.

I prefer Gregorian/modern liturgical music that is angelic and suits the mass, such as Franz Schuberts classical piece ''Ave Maria''. He was modern of his time and wrote music according to the secular stuff he heard ''on the radio of his day'' so to speak.

Let us not forget what the Fathers of Vatican II said in SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM:

30. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.

[...]

116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

Michael G

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Oh I do, I do. You have no idea how much I detest them. There is a point at which ugly music becomes blasphemy.

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Where? Apart from the handful of Masses in the Extraordinary Form that survive because of the efforts of a few committed priests and small congregations, in the face of militant opposition from bishops and other clergy, where can I find a Mass like that?

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

Michael G wrote: »

Oh I do, I do. You have no idea how much I detest them. There is a point at which ugly music becomes blasphemy.

Where? Apart from the handful of Masses in the Extraordinary Form that survive because of the efforts of a few committed priests and small congregations, in the face of militant opposition from bishops and other clergy, where can I find a Mass like that?

@Donatello: Yes the Church says she ''prefers'' it but also note that she mentions both are equal. Stating ones preference is not a command. I prefer it too but can listen to both and not be disturbed

@Michael and Donatello and slav. What kind of music are we talking here that include guitars? Surely not songs like ''Love is patient, love is kind'' or ''Yawehh I knowww you are nearrrrr, standing always by my side''?

or ''come back to me, with all your heart''

I mean seriously those are great liturgical angelic songs. Please let me know what kind of stuff you are talking about.

Onesimus

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Onesimus wrote: »

@Donatello: Yes the Church says she ''prefers'' it but also note that she mentions both are equal. Stating ones preference is not a command. I prefer it too but can listen to both and not be disturbed

@Michael and Donatello and slav. What kind of music are we talking here that include guitars? Surely not songs like ''Love is patient, love is kind'' or ''Yawehh I knowww you are nearrrrr, standing always by my side''?

or ''come back to me, with all your heart''

I mean seriously those are great liturgical angelic songs. Please let me know what kind of stuff you are talking about.

Onesimus

Whatever Vatican II was talking about, I don't think guitars would have come into the consideration of the Council Fathers.

There is a big difference between worship music (perfectly acceptable for use in other circumstances - prayer groups, youth retreats etc...) and the music fitting for the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

Donatello wrote: »

Whatever Vatican II was talking about, I don't think guitars would have come into the consideration of the Council Fathers.

There is a big difference between worship music (perfectly acceptable for use in other circumstances - prayer groups, youth retreats etc...) and the music fitting for the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

You can not impose your view of what the council fathers taught. your simply putting words into their mouth that are not there.

Sorry Donny but I think your losing this musical liturgical battle here. Your not reading the fathers properly and assuming they detest guitars without sufficient evidence to uphold such presumptions.

Onesimus

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Onesimus wrote: »

You can not impose your view of what the council fathers taught. your simply putting words into their mouth that are not there.

Sorry Donny but I think your losing this musical liturgical battle here. Your not reading the fathers properly and assuming they detest guitars without sufficient evidence to uphold such presumptions.

Onesimus

Do you own a guitar by any chance?

The words are there - SC says that Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place, but that sacred polyphony can also be used. Guitars at Mass came in during the 60s and 70s free love error when wacky back and love were cheap. They are alien to the traditional Catholic worship. Music ought to be of a sacred character if it is to be sued for Mass. I am not against guitars per se, just not during Mass. 'Folk Masses' are so last century.

The music which accompanies Holy Mass is not to be seen as an add-on, but, according to the tradition of the Church, the music is part of the Mass - the music should be the actual texts of the Mass. I read a book about this, The Heresy of Formlessness, by Martin Mosebach. He covered this issue. You should read it. I don't feel like searching through it tonight. But basically, the modern error is that the music is just like religious entertainment during Mass, and indeed that is how it is in many parishes. But the proper way is for the music to actually be the sung Mass texts. That's the way it's meant to be really. And that is what they are trying to do with the new translation, hence the music is being printed in the missal so that the Mass can be sung. The Church is trying to encourage the vision Vatican II in SC put forward.

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

The words are there - SC says that Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place, but that sacred polyphony can also be used. Guitars at Mass came in during the 60s and 70s free love error when wacky back and love were cheap. They are alien to the traditional Catholic worship.

its given its pride of place according to the preference of the Church indeed. But your also dropping the part where it sees all sacred music a la polyphonic and Gregorian is seen as equal by the Church. Thus the preference of the Church with regards to Gregorian is simply their preference and not a command that we stick to it. I see where your coming from with regards to singing the mass text. But the the mass text to be sung is also in the present missal prior to the new one at advent. So what are ye on about? There are many sacred songs I've heard that suit Holy Communion time on guitar such John Michael talbots ''healer of my soul'' and ''This is my body''

There are also gregorian chants that do not follow the mass text by text too that are sung in monasteries around the world. You say guitar came in the ''free love'' era and then associate it the instrument with evil. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Church organ came many centuries after Gregorian was introduced in the 3rd century. So when the organ came out and they used it for their liturgical chants it was an instrument alien to Gregorian chant also was it not? yet widely accepted by the Church and still used today.

The guitar is 150 years old so it is relatively young in its birth but has produced great classical pieces and can be used for the right thing with the right people behind it just like the organ can.

And Yes I'm an owner of several guitars and was born in the soundhole of one, just to give you an idea of my love for music.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Onesimus wrote: »

And Yes I'm an owner of several guitars and was born in the soundhole of one, just to give you an idea of my love for music.

Ah well that explains it.

But really, I am no fan of folk Masses. I endured all that throughout the 80s.

This is quite interesting - it is an article about an interview with Card. Arinze.

Regarding "music in the liturgy, we should start by saying that Gregorian music is the Church's precious heritage," he said. "It should stay. It should not be banished. If therefore in a particular diocese or country, no one hears Gregorian music anymore, then somebody has made a mistake somewhere."

However, "the Church is not saying that everything should be Gregorian music," the cardinal clarified. "There is room for music which respects that language, that culture, that people. There is room for that too, and the present books say that is a matter for the bishops' conference, because it generally goes beyond the boundaries of one diocese.

[...]

"I will not now pronounce and say never guitar; that would be rather severe," Cardinal Arinze added. "But much of guitar music may not be suitable at all for the Mass. Yet, it is possible to think of some guitar music that would be suitable, not as the ordinary one we get every time, [but with] the visit of a special group, etc."

"The judgment would be left to the bishops of the area. It is wiser that way," he pointed out. "Also, because there are other instruments in many countries which are not used in Italy or in Ireland, for instance.

"People don't come to Mass in order to be entertained. They come to Mass to adore God, to thank him, to ask pardon for sins, and to ask for other things that they need."

"When they want entertainment, they know where to go...

The important thing is that the music must be of a sacred character. I'll be honest and say I've never heard sacred guitar music. Maybe you can enlighten me.

Authentic inculturation is fine and good and I have witnessed it myself, once, but what we got after Vatican II in so many cases and places was not that. We brought the jazz bar, the nightclub, and the barbecue into the Mass. That can't work. We need to get ourselves sorted, and recourse to the Church's sacred music treasury would be a good place to start. Let's put the show tunes away.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Pope Benedict XVI has called repeatedly for a restoration of the great Catholic tradition in sacred music. But Vatican-watcher Sandro Magister of L'Espresso charges that the commitment to beautiful Gregorian chant and polyphonic music has not been evident in the Pope's own liturgical celebrations, such as the beatification of John Paul II.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=10501

Full article here:
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1348094?eng=y

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

Donatello wrote: »

Pope Benedict XVI has called repeatedly for a restoration of the great Catholic tradition in sacred music. But Vatican-watcher Sandro Magister of L'Espresso charges that the commitment to beautiful Gregorian chant and polyphonic music has not been evident in the Pope's own liturgical celebrations, such as the beatification of John Paul II.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=10501

Full article here:
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1348094?eng=y

European polyphony rose prior to, and during the period of the Western Schism. Avignon, the seat of the antipopes, was a vigorous center of secular music-making, much of which influenced sacred polyphony.
It was not merely polyphony that offended the medieval ears, but the notion of secular music merging with the sacred and making its way into the papal court. It gave church music more of a jocular performance quality removing the solemn worship they were accustomed to. The use of and attitude toward polyphony varied widely in the Avignon court from the beginning to the end of its religious importance in the fourteenth century. Harmony was not only considered frivolous, impious, and lascivious, but an obstruction to the audibility of the words. Instruments, as well as certain modes, were actually forbidden in the church because of their association with secular music and pagan rites. Dissonant clashes of notes give a creepy feeling that was labeled as evil, fueling their argument against polyphony as being the devil’s music. After banishing polyphony from the Liturgy in 1322, Pope John XXII spoke in his 1324 Bull Docta Sanctorum Patrum warning against the unbecoming elements of this musical innovation. Pope Clement VI, however, indulged in it.
It was in 1364, during the pontificate of Pope Urban V, that composer and priest Guillaume de Machaut composed the first polyphonic setting of the mass called La Messe de Nostre Dame.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphony

As you can see the secular can influence the sacred. A return to polyphonic music Donatello would mean a return to music that was secular in the middle ages but was introduced in the sacred. Once frowned upon, and then welcomed.

Today is no different. As long as the secular music used in the sacred ''sounds sacred'' is ''theologically correct'' and ''lifts ones soul to God''.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Onesimus wrote: »

As you can see the secular can influence the sacred. A return to polyphonic music Donatello would mean a return to music that was secular in the middle ages but was introduced in the sacred. Once frowned upon, and then welcomed.

Today is no different. As long as the secular music used in the sacred ''sounds sacred'' is ''theologically correct'' and ''lifts ones soul to God''.

Warum haben Sie einen Link zu einem Wikipedia-Artikel?

I only posted the story to show that although Benedict XVI has good ideas, he is surrounded by individuals who obstruct him.

As regards felt banners and guitars, I don't think they will ever become part of the Church's liturgical tradition, and that is the main thesis of this thread.

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

Donatello wrote: »

Warum haben Sie einen Link zu einem Wikipedia-Artikel?

I only posted the story to show that although Benedict XVI has good ideas, he is surrounded by individuals who obstruct him.

As regards felt banners and guitars, I don't think they will ever become part of the Church's liturgical tradition, and that is the main thesis of this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWt5y301BSY

How on earth you think music like this does not lift ones soul to God is beyond me man.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Onesimus wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWt5y301BSY

How on earth you think music like this does not lift ones soul to God is beyond me man.

I love that and I've seen it before, but like the man who uploaded it, I would say that it is great for devotional and prayer group usage, but not for the Sacred Liturgy. Yer man said as much in his comment directly below the video:

t'internet wrote: »

this is nice. thanks. but i do not consider singing this in a liturgical celebration. perhaps in prayer meeting or bible study, this will do.

forestking19 1 year ago 2

I totally agree!

kolbe1019 1 year ago

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

Donatello wrote: »

I love that and I've seen it before, but like the man who uploaded it, I would say that it is great for devotional and prayer group usage, but not for the Sacred Liturgy. Yer man said as much in his comment directly below the video:

Yeah but his comment is his own opinion and just because he said it does not mean he is right. Music like this is certainly fitting for the Liturgy in my opinion.

Consider the following which I've often sung during communion time. A very fitting guitar song that leads the soul to God in my opnion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9nQj7i-MRI

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Onesimus wrote: »

Yeah but his comment is his own opinion and just because he said it does not mean he is right. Music like this is certainly fitting for the Liturgy in my opinion.

Consider the following which I've often sung during communion time. A very fitting guitar song that leads the soul to God in my opnion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9nQj7i-MRI

He agrees with me though...:p

That would be fine for retreats and things, but not, imho, for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Onesimus

I would like more drums and guitars

Donatello wrote: »

He agrees with me though...:p

That would be fine for retreats and things, but not, imho, for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

But donatello, the very music you love and proclaim that the church would like to see a return of, such as polyphonic music, was secular music introduced into the Church and mixed with the sacred, once condemned and then welcomed. you puzzle me to no end.

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

VATICAN CITY (CNS) — In giving priority to Gregorian chant and to classical liturgical music, the Catholic Church is not trying to limit anyone’s creativity but is showcasing a tradition of beautiful prayer, Pope Benedict XVI wrote.

Music at Mass should reflect the fact that the liturgy “is primarily the action of God through the church, which has its history, its rich tradition and its creativity,” the pope said in a letter marking the 100th anniversary of the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music.

In the letter, released by the Vatican May 31, the pope wrote that sometimes people have presented Gregorian chant and traditional church music as expressions “to be overcome or disregarded because they limited the freedom and creativity of the individual or community.”

But, he said, when people recognize that the liturgy does not belong to an individual or parish as much as it belongs to the church, then they begin to understand how, while some expressions of local culture are appropriate, priority should be given to expressions of the church’s universal culture.

He said music used at Mass must convey a “sense of prayer, dignity and beauty,” should help the faithful enter into prayer — including through use of music that reflects their culture — and should keep alive the tradition of Gregorian chant and polyphony.

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PONTIFICAL INSTITUTE OF SACRED MUSIC CELEBRATES A CENTURY

VATICAN CITY, 31 MAY 2011 (VIS) - On the occasion of the 100th anniversary of the Pontifical Institute of Sacred Music, the Holy Father sent a letter to Cardinal Zenon Grocholewski, chancellor of the institution. The letter, which was published today, was read at the institute last Thursday, 26 May.

Benedict XVI recalled that Pope St. Pius X founded the Higher School of Sacred Music, which two decades later was elevated by Pius XI to a pontifical institute. The Holy Father stated that, in order to clearly understand the identity and mission of that Institute, it was necessary to know that St. Pius X founded it "eight years after having issued the Motu Proprio 'Tra le sollecitudini' on 22 November 1903, with which he brought about a profound reform in the area of sacred music, turning to the great tradition of the Church against the influence exercised by profane music, above all of the operatic type".

This magisterial intervention, in order to be implemented in the universal Church, needed a center of studies and teaching that would faithfully and appropriately transmit the directives indicated by the Supreme Pontiff according to the authentic and glorious tradition that dates back to St. Gregory the Great. In the span of the last 100 years, this Institution has assimilated, developed, and expressed the doctrinal and pastoral teaching of the pontifical documents, as well as those of Vatican Council II, concerning sacred music, to illumine and guide the work of composers, chapel maestros, liturgists, musicians, and all instructors in this field".

The Pope then emphasized how, since St. Pius X until today, "even though evolving naturally, there has been a substantial continuity of the Magisterium on sacred music". In particular he cited Paul VI and John Paul II who "in light of the conciliar constitution 'Sacrosanctum Concilium', reiterated the purpose of sacred music, that is to say, 'the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful' and the fundamental criteria of the corresponding tradition...: a sense of prayer, dignity, and beauty; full adherence to liturgical texts and expressions; the assembly's participation and, therefore, the legitimate adaptation to local culture, at the same time maintaining the universality of language; the primacy of Gregorian chant as the supreme model of sacred music and the careful assessment of other expressive forms that make up the historical-liturgical patrimony of the Church, especially but not just polyphony; and the importance of the 'schola cantorum', particularly in cathedral churches".

"However, we always have to ask ourselves: Who is the true subject of the liturgy? The answer is simple: the Church. It is not the individual or the group that celebrates the liturgy, but it is primarily God's action through the Church with its history, its rich tradition, and its creativity. The liturgy, and thus sacred music, 'lives from a correct and constant relationship between healthy traditio and legitimate progressio', keeping always in mind that these two concepts ... are interwoven because 'tradition is a living reality that, therefore, encompasses within it the very principle of development and progress'", the Pope concluded.

We see interventions from the Pope when secular influences unsuitable for the Sacred Liturgy was purged. Some elements of secular music were deemed suitable for the Church's worship, as you pointed out earlier. Others, like opera, were deemed unsuitable and profane and were rejected.

I suppose the question arises, 'Is guitar music a genuine progressio, or is it, for the most part, profane, just as rock music is unsuitable for the Sacred Liturgy?' Is guitar music fitting in to the organic development of liturgical music, or was it a temporary and slowly receding blip during the heady days of the 60s and 70s and that time of confused dissent following Vatican II?

Slav

Onesimus wrote: »

Yes Gregorian grew within the Church but so did modern Liturgical music as the people of Church are the Church and part of its body, thus it ''grew within the Church''.

No, the difference is that Gregorian chant was born within the Church while modern liturgical music mainly just adaptation with diferent level of success of secular music for liturgical use or altering the Church music in accordance with contemporary (at the time) secular music style(s).

Onesimus wrote: »

@Michael and Donatello and slav. What kind of music are we talking here that include guitars?

I think any music that uses guitars (and btw I love guitars be they acoustic or electric, clear or heavily distorted!).

Surely not songs like ''Love is patient, love is kind'' or ''Yawehh I knowww you are nearrrrr, standing always by my side''?

Including those. If some churches use this style of music during mass it's their own decision and right of course. My point is that monophonic chant is in completely different and superior league.

Onesimus wrote: »

How on earth you think music like this does not lift ones soul to God is beyond me man.

You nailed it down. This music lifts ones soul to God - and that's exactly its problem.

Surrounded by this music during the prayer we are mere consumers of it. We relax our souls on the back seat and let them be lifted. Harmonised music plays on strings of our emotions and makes them drive us up high, maybe even to God, or down low, maybe even to genuine repentance.

In contrast, with monophonic chant your are on the driving seat. You are not given a lift, you are getting there yourself. Music is only a neutral canvas; it's you who paint all the colours and details on it. The resulting prayer is your work and your own artwork. It's a quiet and worthy sacrifice to offer to God ("Let my prayer be directed as incense in thy sight; the lifting up of my hands, as evening sacrifice." - Psalm 142:2).

Otherwise what we are offering? Our pleased ears and our emotional state? Is it what God expects from us?

Donatello

I would like more drums and guitars

Slav wrote: »

In contrast, with monophonic chant your are on the driving seat. You are not given a lift, you are getting there yourself. Music is only a neutral canvas; it's you who paint all the colours and details on it. The resulting prayer is your work and your own artwork. It's a quiet and worthy sacrifice to offer to God ("Let my prayer be directed as incense in thy sight; the lifting up of my hands, as evening sacrifice." - Psalm 142:2).

Otherwise what we are offering? Our pleased ears and our emotional state? Is it what God expects from us?

I agree. There is some music which, as lovely as it is, manipulates the soul into a predetermined emotional place/state, whereas chant leaves the soul alone. It can be a lonely and austere experience, but left to itself, hopefully the soul may encounter God and enter into authentic prayer, sooner or later.

Keylem

My father's uncle was a tenor in the choir and had a lovely voice, singing chants, my dad (God rest his soul), used to always sing the tanum ergo. I love the following version!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYxyiUB1L0s