Centre brake light

Max_Damage

My mother's '00 Escort doesn't have one, and yet it passed the NCT recently. Are centre brake lights not compulsory in this country, in the same vain that rear fog lights aren't?

-Corkie-

If it did not come with it first day it would not need it for the test. If you had the very same car with the centre brakelight that did not work it would fail the test..

Nissan doctor

As above, its not compulsary to have one, but if it was fitted originally then its tested.

Max_Damage

Seems we have very different laws here than say the UK or America. Over there, such a light would have to be fitted, but here, if it's fitted, well and good, if not, ah well!

Seth Brundle

A car needs two brake lights. Anything else (i.e. a third or fourth) are optional. All must work though where fitted.

Guy:Incognito

Max_Damage wrote: »

Seems we have very different laws here than say the UK or America. Over there, such a light would have to be fitted, but here, if it's fitted, well and good, if not, ah well!

If you started having to fit every safety feature retroactively thered be no old cars on the road.

coylemj

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

If you started having to fit every safety feature retroactively thered be no old cars on the road.

+1 Even the mandatory fitting of seat belts in Ireland only applied to cars manufactured after a certain year so back in the 70s there was plenty of cars running around with no seat belts.

The centre brake light started life as a safety device fitted as an innovation by Volvo. At some stage in the 1980s during Ronald Regan's presidency, the Secretary of Transportation in the US was Elizabeth Dole, the wife of Senator Bob Dole. One day while driving through D.C. she saw a Volvo with the centre brake light, thought it was a great idea and decided that it should be made compulsory.

I think it became compulsory in Ireland (and probably the EU as a whole) in 1997, I recall that when I bought a new Fiat Bravo in 96 that it was fitted. It had been flagged a few years in advance that it was going to be compulsory for new cars from 97 so new models introduced in 95 and 96 were already shipping with the centre brake light fitted.

coylemj

kbannon wrote: »

A car needs two brake lights. Anything else (i.e. a third or fourth) are optional. All must work though where fitted.

If the middle brake light was optional almost nobody except Volvo would fit them, they have been mandatory here for more than 10 years, see my post above.

Why do you think even the crappiest little van has them these days? They are not optional.

Max_Damage

coylemj wrote: »

If the middle brake light was optional almost nobody except Volvo would fit them, they have been mandatory here for more than 10 years, see my post above.

Why do you think even the crappiest little van has them these days? They are not optional.

Then how is it my mother's '00 car passed without one?

-Corkie-

Max_Damage wrote: »

Then how is it my mother's '00 car passed without one?

I suppose its like the new law now on DRL`S...

Seth Brundle

coylemj wrote: »

If the middle brake light was optional almost nobody except Volvo would fit them, they have been mandatory here for more than 10 years, see my post above.

Why do you think even the crappiest little van has them these days? They are not optional.

Have you a link to the piece of legislation as its news to me?

AugustusMinimus

Is it illegal to have people sitting in the rear seats in a car which did not have factory fitted seat belts in the rear ?

Max_Damage

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Is it illegal to have people sitting in the rear seats in a car which did not have factory fitted seat belts in the rear ?

No, not if the car was registered before 1992 I think it was.

My '90 Micra has no rear seatbelts!

AugustusMinimus

Max_Damage wrote: »

No, not if the car was registered before 1992 I think it was.

My '90 Micra has no rear seatbelts!

I'd love to know, say in 1991, did other countries have legislation mandating seat belts in the rear. It's frightening to think that cars might have been manufactured for Ireland without rear seat belts just because there was no legislation in place mandating it, eventhough the same cars were sold in other European countries with belts.

I have no doubt that it was an EU directive which brought in seat belts in the back considering the apes we have in Dail Eireann. They were worse back then than they are now.

unkel

According to wiki:

In North America since 1986, in Australia and New Zealand since 1990, and in Europe since 1998, a central brake lamp, mounted higher than the vehicle's left and right brake lamps and called a Centre High Mount Stop Lamp (CHMSL), is also required

Linky

No reference to the relevant legislation though...

unkel

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

It's frightening to think that cars might have been manufactured for Ireland without rear seat belts just because there was no legislation in place mandating it

Hard to believe now but back in the mid 90s most people in this country did not use rear seat belts even if they were fitted to the car they were in! Back then also only 1 in 3 male drivers wore a seatbelt :eek:

Seth Brundle

unkel wrote: »

Hard to believe now but back in the mid 90s most people in this country did not use rear seat belts even if they were fitted to the car they were in! Back then also only 1 in 3 male drivers wore a seatbelt :eek:

Its still quite common.
Some people are just plain stupid!

zilog_jones

unkel wrote: »

According to wiki:



Linky

No reference to the relevant legislation though...

It's probably in ECE R48 somewhere:
http://www.unece.org/trans/main/welcwp29.htm
Trouble is these things are mind-numbingly boring and it still won't tell you what date it was introduced.

I'm surprised a '00 Escort doesn't have one though, maybe it was removed for some reason, e.g. window or tailgate replaced at some stage? Is the car old stock? I'm certain they became standard on Fiestas some time in 1998, I'd assume they did the same with Escorts.

maidhc

unkel wrote: »

According to wiki:



Linky

No reference to the relevant legislation though...

It would be contained in various EU Type Approval Regulations:
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/internal_market/single_market_for_goods/motor_vehicles/motor_vehicles_technical_harmonisation/n26100_en.htm

Max_Damage

zilog_jones wrote: »

I'm surprised a '00 Escort doesn't have one though, maybe it was removed for some reason, e.g. window or tailgate replaced at some stage? Is the car old stock? I'm certain they became standard on Fiestas some time in 1998, I'd assume they did the same with Escorts.

We think the tailgate maybe isn't original, as it suffered a minor rear-end collision when the previous owner had it, so the tailgate could very well have been replaced.

Seth Brundle

Something becoming standard is not the same as it being mandatory.
I'm not aware of any legislation other than the following:
S.I. No. 189/1963: ROAD TRAFFIC (LIGHTING OF VEHICLES) REGULATIONS, 1963

Stop lamps.


13. (1) Stop lamps, in the case of a vehicle to which this Part of these Regulations applies, shall consist of two lamps fitted to the vehicle and shall comply with the provisions of this article.


(2) The lamps shall be actuated by the application of the service brake, and when so actuated shall show a red light to the rear of the vehicle.


(3) (a) The lamps shall be as nearly as possible of the same power.


(b) Each stop lamp shall be of substantially greater intensity than either of the rear lamps with which the vehicle is required to be equipped.


(4) The lamps shall have as nearly as possible the same appearance when lit.


(5) The lamps shall have as nearly as possible the same illuminated area.


(6) The lamps shall be fitted as nearly as possible at the same height, and no part of the illuminated surfaces of the lamps shall be less than 12 inches or more than 4 feet from the ground.


(7) The lamps shall be fitted on opposite sides of the longitudinal axis of the vehicle and as nearly as possible equidistant from that axis.


(8) The lamps shall be fitted as nearly as possible in the same longitudinal position in relation to the vehicle.

---
S.I. No. 182/1991 — Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) (Amendment) Regulations, 1991

(2) Where a cycle or invalid carriage is equipped with a stop lamp or stop lamps, the lamp or lamps shall comply with the requirements of article 27 of these Regulations.


(3) A mechanically propelled vehicle, may be equipped with a high mounted stop lamp, in addition to stop lamps required by these Regulations, provided that any such stop lamp fitted to a mechanically propelled vehicle first registered on or after 1st January 1993 shall comply as far as practicable, having regard to the construction of such vehicle, with the following requirements—


( a ) the stop lamp shall be fitted with its centre on the vertical longitudinal centre line of the mechanically propelled vehicle;


( b ) the stop lamp shall be fitted at a height on the mechanically propelled vehicle not more than 1500 millimetres from the ground and not higher than the roof of the mechanically propelled vehicle;


( c ) the bottom edge of the stop lamp shall be higher than the top edge of stop lamps required by these Regulations;


( d ) the stop lamp shall be actuated by the application of the service brake, and when so actuated, shall show a red light to the rear of the mechanically propelled vehicle;


( e ) the stop lamp shall comply with the requirements of either Directive 76/758/EEC or of ECE Regulation No. 7 or any amendments thereto relating to stop lamps;


( f ) the stop lamp shall be legibly and permanently marked with one of the approved standard marks set out in the Schedule to these Regulations; and


( g ) no reflections from the light of the stop lamp on the rear window shall be visible to the driver when viewed indirectly in the rear view mirror or when viewed directly."

I don't think anything was affected with the Road Traffic (Lighting of Vehicles) (Blue and Amber Lamps) Regulations 2006

maidhc wrote: »

It would be contained in various EU Type Approval Regulations:
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/internal_market/single_market_for_goods/motor_vehicles/motor_vehicles_technical_harmonisation/n26100_en.htm

That hasn't been transposed into Irish legislation and therefore would mean absolutely nothing here.


So, can someone please let me know how they believe that these are mandatory?

maidhc

kbannon wrote: »

That hasn't been transposed into Irish legislation and therefore would mean absolutely nothing here.


So, can someone please let me know how they believe that these are mandatory?

The type approval regulations most certainly have been transposed:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ResultsTitle.html?q=Motor+Vehicles+Type+Approval&Simple_Search=Acts&Simple_Search=SIs

You won't find anything in the RTAs. Type approval has been done on pan european basis since accession because scallywag governments (french largely!) kept making conditions that made importing cars from other countries difficult (germany mostly!).

I can't say if high level stop lamps are mandatory or not, but the above is where you will find out if you are comitted to the cause.

---
EDIT: Nice page to explain the process: http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Transport-Certification/Motor-Vehicle-Approval-Schemes/CE-Marking-for-Motor-Vehicles.aspx

BostonB

What if there was a high stop light originally fitted, but its been removed.

Nissan doctor

The 96 micra i have had a high level stop light, its missing(obviously missing, wire taped up and mounting points visible) and its passed the last 2 NCT's without a mention.

Unless the rules are different for commercial vehicles, they can't be mantetory as Nissan Navara D40 models(05 to present) don't have high level brake lights fitted. The same vehicle in the US(Nissan Frontier) has one fitted.

I would suspect its more of a safety agreement between manufacturers, like the fitment of ABS.

ZENER

Perhaps they should be made compulsory !! I've lost count of the number of cars where the only brake light working was the one on the back window !! These weren't old cars either !

Just a thought here. What if the 3rd light is mounded in an after market boot spoiler ? Do the same rules apply ?

Ken

Max_Damage

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Unless the rules are different for commercial vehicles, they can't be mandatory as Nissan Navara D40 models(05 to present) don't have high level brake lights fitted. The same vehicle in the US(Nissan Frontier) has one fitted.

In America they are compulsory since 1986.

Nissan doctor

Max_Damage wrote: »

In America they are compulsory since 1986.

I know but what I was getting at is if they produce the one vehicle in Europe, the US and Australia/Asia but only don't fit the brake light to the european models, it would indicate that they are not obliged to by any law.

Guy:Incognito

ZENER wrote: »

Perhaps they should be made compulsory !! I've lost count of the number of cars where the only brake light working was the one on the back window !! These weren't old cars either !

OT but they never seem to blow for some reason. I've never had to replace a centre bulb. The Clio I bought new in 00 and my mother had till the middle of last year had its original bulb.

Max_Damage

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

OT but they never seem to blow for some reason. I've never had to replace a centre bulb. The Clio I bought new in 00 and my mother had till the middle of last year had its original bulb.

Haha! Funny enough you should mention that, my mother's old Mazda 626 has the same centre bulb since she got it in 2004!