Does anyone else think "opening hours" laws should be "serving hours" instead?

hatrickpatrick

Was just thinking about this the other day.
Currently, Ireland's licensing laws permit the opening of licensed premises at certain times of the day and demand that they close at a certain time. This includes closing for 24 hours from midnight tonight to midnight tomorrow, etc.

Now here's my question. Why wouldn't these instead be serving hours? Why don't they say to clubs and pubs, you can only serve alcohol at these times, but you're free to open whenever you want for other business? After all many pubs serve things other than alcohol, and certainly nightclubs have music and such, making the serving of alcohol only one aspect of the business.

So what's the justification for the law saying "The entire business must be opened / closed at these times" rather than simply saying "Alcohol may not be served in the building at these times"?

Isn't it a bit ridiculous?

Take tonight, for instance, or tomorrow night. I don't mind going out sober one bit. I do it regularly, in fact. So why should that mean I can't go out to a nightclub with some mates and dance to music just because they have the capability of serving alcoholic beverages? Would it not make infinitely more sense to say "You're not allowed to actually serve any alcohol tomorrow" but leave it at that?

Why, in other words, does the law have to dictate the opening and closing hours of a club / pub? Why not dictate the serving hours, but leave them free to remain open even when they're not selling any alcohol?

BeerNut

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So what's the justification for the law saying "The entire business must be opened / closed at these times" rather than simply saying "Alcohol may not be served in the building at these times"?

Probably because it's easier to enforce and less likely to be abused.

Under your proposal, customers could order lots of drink and sit over it for hours.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Isn't it a bit ridiculous?

I think the law telling me when I can and can't buy a drink is ridiculous full stop. I'm a grown-up, and I know how to drink like a grown-up. Why can't I have a drink when I want?

RichieC

BeerNut wrote: »

Under your proposal, customers could order lots of drink and sit over it for hours.

And?

pa990

RichieC wrote: »

And?

And that's the flaw in your plan

rubadub

I think pubs could open tonight for as long as they want. I expect many pubs are open today, I know the leopardstown in was open on good friday before, googling shows the Stillorgan Orchard, the Bank on College Green and the Oval in Abbey Street have done in the past too.

The laws are in effect serving laws and then there is drinking up time on top (which you want to be as long as you want).

I am not sure how it works, as I know some eddie rockets now serve beer, not sure if they still open very late. Maybe if people are caught with drink after the drinkup time they get in trouble.

Losty Dublin

I had dinner (fish, if you are nosey) in the Dropping Well today and it was very quiet.

It was explained to me some time ago that the pub licence just covers the selling of alcohol so on paper anywhere that serves alcohol can open on Good Friday provided that they do not serve alcohol. The reality however is that a pubs prime reason to trade is to sell alcohol so the hazards and costs of opening today outweigh any gains. Of the few pubs that do open, they are probably in possession of a special restaurant licence as well their pub licence so they have a better food set up and as such they can justify their opening today compared to a bar menu type bar; they also incur less Garda attention as well. A special restaurant licence is very different to a wine licence that many cafes; several of Chawkes pubs which were open today have such a status.

Mr Simpson

Or the government could just stop telling me when I can or can't buy alcohol on the basis of a religion I don't follow. /end of slightly OT rant

wnolan1992

I can see your point about pubs, but tbf, most of a nightclubs business would be the bar. I mean, if you take into account the cost of a dj, security staff, clean up etc, they would never make a profit by opening on a night when they can't server alcohol imo.
As for letting the pubs open to serve food and stuff, in theory that's a great idea, but I think we all know that that would be abused something reckless. Most pubs would probably allow their regular customers to have a sneaky pint. I'm not saying it's right or wrong that we can't buy alcohol at certain times, those are just the laws we've to deal with atm.

rubadub

mmcn90 wrote: »

Or the government could just stop telling me when I can or can't buy alcohol on the basis of a religion I don't follow.

Religion is just one thing, I have read another reason for early closing times dates back to world war I, when they wanted people to be fit and ready for industry to supply arms each morning.

However it seems the government have not read the papers lately and have not copped on that the war is over. They also might not have heard of shift workers, many of whom cannot go for a pint after work.

wnolan1992 wrote: »

most of a nightclubs business would be the bar. I mean, if you take into account the cost of a dj, security staff, clean up etc, they would never make a profit by opening on a night when they can't server alcohol imo.

Some clubs charge more in knowing their patrons will not be drinking alcohol, I imagine the average club might make more than the pubs. I am talking of people on E or coke who might not be drinking much alcohol if any. I remember going to clubs years back when I was one of the few people drinking, everybody else on overpriced water -pubs probably making more profit on the water.

If there is demand then one club in the town will open, just like every tesco, pharmacy or newsagent is not 24hr, let competition/demand dictate it. When people hear 24hr bars they often think of it like its an enforced law, that they MUST open 24hr. But pubs are free to close whenever they want, just like many close early on thursdays here still.

BeerNut

rubadub wrote: »

I have read another reason for early closing times dates back to world war I, when they wanted people to be fit and ready for industry to supply arms each morning.

It goes back to the 1870s.

wnolan1992

rubadub wrote: »

If there is demand then one club in the town will open, just like every tesco, pharmacy or newsagent is not 24hr, let competition/demand dictate it. When people hear 24hr bars they often think of it like its an enforced law, that they MUST open 24hr. But pubs are free to close whenever they want, just like many close early on thursdays here still.

Yeah I agree. I'm just thinking about situations like here in Limerick where you have about four clubs within five minutes of each other. Not all four would open i suppose, but if they did then they'd make very little if any profit.

the beer revolu

rubadub wrote: »

But pubs are free to close whenever they want, just like many close early on thursdays here still.

It's been quite a while since we had the (short lived) extra hour on a Thursday.

Losty Dublin

the beer revolu wrote: »

It's been quite a while since we had the (short lived) extra hour on a Thursday.

What culled that apparently was high levels of absenteeism on Fridays; it's as much our drinking habits that need to change as much as pub hours IMO.

BeerNut

Losty Dublin wrote: »

What culled that was apparently high levels of absenteeism on Fridays

FYP

Commission on Liquor Licensing 2003 wrote:

The Commission is concerned at reports that later opening on Thursday nights is having an adverse impact on young people reporting for work or training, or turning up for classes or lectures on Friday mornings. While the evidence is mainly anecdotal, the Commission accepts that the longer opening hours on Thursday nights are having an unintended negative impact on the participation of young people in work, training and education.

"Yeah, sounds about right" seems to have been the sole basis for this recommendation, which became policy, which became law.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

it's as much our drinking habits that need to change as much as pub hours IMO.

I agree. And tighter restrictions on opening hours are pretty much guaranteed to make people drink less sensibly -- Holy Thursday/Good Friday is a pretty clear example of that in action.