can't decide on heating system

mmc2010

Hi folks, starting a new build shortly and finding it difficult to decide on a heating system. Capital Cost is a factor so for the present we have ruled out geo thermal. We also want to have an open fire/stove in the living room. The house is about 233 sq mts with the kitchen being a big space at 8.9m x 5m. There is also a sunroom off this kitchen at 3.3m x 4m. Its this space really that I'm considering most. We will have a very well insulated house with solar panels also.
Our options that we're considering are as follows;

1) waterford stanley stove in the kitchen driving radiators, fueled by oil. The reason for this is that we both work full time and would like the kitchen well heated in the morning and evening especially. I'm not sure if this is very efficient though.

2) underfloor heating in the openplan areas and rads everywhere else. My feelings on this though is that when we're out all day we wouldn't utilise this heat sufficiently.

i would appreciate comments/ feedback.

Carlow52

am no expert but here goes.

dont design heating system around current occupancy.

Is Waterford stove that flexible

Oil and UFH may not be the best combo

I would go rads throughout

Outkast_IRE

Personally i would pick underfloor or rads and stick with one or the other, putting in both would just lead to extra expense with additonal mixing valves , and not having the full benefit of one or the other.

For example , with underfloor it was a long warm up time and a slow cool down time, whereas rads are the opposite quick warm up quick cool down.
So i would say you are making it very hard on yourself to create a balanced warmth in the home and would probably result in boiler or stove running for longer.

I would have no problem using a appropriately sized stove to heat underfloor to me best practice would be to use the stove to heat a buffer tank and obviously the buffer forwards this heat to rads or underfloor .

the right buffer tank would also allow you to connect another heat producing appliance at a later stage or perhaps you could link your solar to it and use the solar heat that way instead would be a very appealing option to me as it would allow whatever heat the solar produces to be used as you see fit, either heating or hot water.

A buffer also allow boilers to work at maximum efficency while heating them , as you are heating a single large store of water and not circualting throughout a system.

Step one for me would be pick Rads or underfloor and stick with one , then choices can be made easily from there.

slavetothegrind

on the oil fired stove, they can be noisy, this may not be an issue for you but have a listen if you can.

shamsteak

Not long finished a new build myself similar size house.. Went for condenser oil boiler and high efficency rads, Solar tubes, and solid fuel stove in sitting room.. The stove is from an irish company called "Boru" and i find it great. It worked out cheaper than stanley and is every bit as good a quality, just keep it topped up and it easily heats up to 10 radiatiors no problem, whilst also heating domnestic water. The solar tubes are great, from mid april this year i can get 2x 300 L tank of hot water twice a day (around 55 degrees), great for showers and baths. I also followed the building regs on the insulation and believe me it's well worth it.. Since i moved in in mid january i've only had to use the oil maybe 3 times tops for an hour at a time! The house keeps the heat in after that.. Hope this hepls!!

Arseways

Samsteak is spot on there. condensing oil boiler, HE rads and insulate, insulate, insulate. if the rads are sized right the kitchen will be warm enough.

shamsteak

Indeed Arseways! I was concerned at how small some of the rads were when the plumber was installing them but he assured me they were good enough because they were HE and he was dead right! Love the profile name by the way

bobvance1

Anyone know how much a new gas heating system would roughly cost for a 110sqm 3 bedroom semi detached house, no current heating system in the house ( built in sixties). thanks

Carlow52

bobvance1 wrote: »

Anyone know how much a new gas heating system would roughly cost for a 110sqm 3 bedroom semi detached house, no current heating system in the house ( built in sixties). thanks

some idea of what the floors and walls are made of would help as would your thoughts on where the pipework and boiler should go.
Is there a boiler room already
where is the immersion cylinder?

Depending what you want, 10k might get u a long way, am not being flippant here but if u were happy with qualplex cable clipped to the skirting boards it will be much cheaper than chasing concrete floors and walls etc

riccol1966

shamsteak wrote: »

Indeed Arseways! I was concerned at how small some of the rads were when the plumber was installing them but he assured me they were good enough because they were HE and he was dead right! Love the profile name by the way

Hi, can you please tell me what model of high efficiency radiators you had installed please, as I am considering changeing from traditional rads to more energy efficent models ?

alan1695

I have a franco belge kersene stove but want to change to a wood burning stove with a back bolier to run 5 radiators and hot water.

Which brand are best - thinking of stanley?

Also, is it possible 2 do a trade in? Which supplier is good?

Am in limerick area.

Thanks!

villa fan

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Personally i would pick underfloor or rads and stick with one or the other, putting in both would just lead to extra expense with additonal mixing valves , and not having the full benefit of one or the other.

For example , with underfloor it was a long warm up time and a slow cool down time, whereas rads are the opposite quick warm up quick cool down.
So i would say you are making it very hard on yourself to create a balanced warmth in the home and would probably result in boiler or stove running for longer.

I would have no problem using a appropriately sized stove to heat underfloor to me best practice would be to use the stove to heat a buffer tank and obviously the buffer forwards this heat to rads or underfloor .

the right buffer tank would also allow you to connect another heat producing appliance at a later stage or perhaps you could link your solar to it and use the solar heat that way instead would be a very appealing option to me as it would allow whatever heat the solar produces to be used as you see fit, either heating or hot water.

A buffer also allow boilers to work at maximum efficency while heating them , as you are heating a single large store of water and not circualting throughout a system.

Step one for me would be pick Rads or underfloor and stick with one , then choices can be made easily from there.

hello outkast, like your advice,have you done something similar yourself with buffer tank and oil.all the advice is that running ufh on oil is expensive regardless.To future proof i'd like to go with ufh as geothermal is most efficient this way,I am building house at the minute, plastering finished inside,well insulated,was going to go with oil,ufh downstairs,rads upstairs,stove with back boiler and solar with stats in all rooms downstairs originally,however have had my head turned of late with geothermal,friends and relations that have geo in and bills seem very reasonable but not sure the money is there for it. my plumber suggested it wouldn't be that easy to future proof for geothermal especially if i have back boiler on stove, do you see any other problems with changing over in the future.seriously contemplating underfloor upstairs also.Any advice would be greatly appreciated.House is approximately 3300 sq ft

Outkast_IRE

villa fan wrote: »

hello outkast, like your advice,have you done something similar yourself with buffer tank and oil.all the advice is that running ufh on oil is expensive regardless.To future proof i'd like to go with ufh as geothermal is most efficient this way,I am building house at the minute, plastering finished inside,well insulated,was going to go with oil,ufh downstairs,rads upstairs,stove with back boiler and solar with stats in all rooms downstairs originally,however have had my head turned of late with geothermal,friends and relations that have geo in and bills seem very reasonable but not sure the money is there for it. my plumber suggested it wouldn't be that easy to future proof for geothermal especially if i have back boiler on stove, do you see any other problems with changing over in the future.seriously contemplating underfloor upstairs also.Any advice would be greatly appreciated.House is approximately 3300 sq ft

I havent done it , but im a plumber and have installed other systems with buffer tanks, you just need a good plumber who understands modern systems , it would be worth your while getting a proper system designed and then getting the plumber to stick to that design.
If you get the buffer tank you get the number of coils on it to suit you system , each heat emitting appliance gets its own coil so if you remove any one at a stage it doesnt effect the other.
For example a stove would have its own coil , oil boiler own coil, solar panels own coil.
and if money was tight that is the combo i would pick oil , solar and stove.

This way all the heat emitting appliances are heating the buffer , the buffer water is then used to heat hot water cylinder or ufh or rads as needed.

If you go with this layout for the moment i cant see why it would cause major work inside the house in years to come if you want to swap to geothermal , as your treating each appliance as seperate.

If i was going with this layout i would have a good size area to house buffer , cylinder and assosiated pipework preferable downstairs with external wall so its easy to do a system swapover in the future.

As i mentioned i would get a professional to size this system accurately using floor plans etc, i also like the idea of solar panels linked to the buffer if possible as it would give you a great store of heat in the buffer if you needed it during the summer

paddy147

Insulation is the key to a well heated home.

Ive a Stovax multi fuel stove in the living room.

Zoned gas heating syastem in the house,and solar panel system for hot water.Im also changing over to high effiecency alloy rads very soon.

But my house is also insulated to the hilt,with 80mm insulation board through the entire house and the bedrooms are slabbed out with Xtratherm board and also insulated plasterboard.

Both attics are also fully spray foamed with bio-foam 800.:)

Outkast_IRE

paddy147 wrote: »

Insulation is the key to a well heated home.

Ive a Stovax multi fuel stove in the living room.

Zoned gas heating syastem in the house,and solar panel system for hot water.Im also changing over to high effiecency alloy rads very soon.

But my house is also insulated to the hilt,with 80mm insulation board through the entire house and the bedrooms are slabbed out with Xtratherm board and also insulated plasterboard.

Both attics are also fully spray foamed with bio-foam 800.:)

Spot on insulation is especially important when consdering a ufh system as the idea is to maintain a nice ambient temp constantly , unlike rads where you just turn them on when you need a blast of heat.

DoneDL

Insulate the building as well as you can, go with a good standard three coil cylinder so that you can have solar in the future and have a solid fuel stove and a condensing oil boiler. Go with good quality TRV`S and zone hot water and the other heating zones. All pipework in the house should be well insulated and consider weather compensation on the control side of the system. Best of luck.

Becky4Clonmel

In the process of building as well at the moment. 2700sq ft, single story. Underfloor heating through out the house. Seperate stat in each room (Heatmiser). Have insulated well as i think you only get one chance to do this properly at the start, well as far as underfloor insulation and cavities are concerned anyway.
Having difficulty finalising the heat source(s). Priced a geo heat pump (borehole) but think they are overpriced and still in development so ruled this out.
Considering using a condensing oil boiler + solar panels + stove in living area (no back boiler). I like the idea of using a buffer tank with the oil boiler to improve efficiency.
Where would i get more information on types of controls to use? Does anyone know of a single control system that controls condensing oil boiler + solar + buffer tank?

Outkast_IRE

Becky4Clonmel wrote: »

In the process of building as well at the moment. 2700sq ft, single story. Underfloor heating through out the house. Seperate stat in each room (Heatmiser). Have insulated well as i think you only get one chance to do this properly at the start, well as far as underfloor insulation and cavities are concerned anyway.
Having difficulty finalising the heat source(s). Priced a geo heat pump (borehole) but think they are overpriced and still in development so ruled this out.
Considering using a condensing oil boiler + solar panels + stove in living area (no back boiler). I like the idea of using a buffer tank with the oil boiler to improve efficiency.
Where would i get more information on types of controls to use? Does anyone know of a single control system that controls condensing oil boiler + solar + buffer tank?

Keep the controls seperate that way any issue with one doesnt affect them all. Do you want your solar to heat the buffer tank or just the hot water cylinder, if you want it to heat buffer tank you may need extra panels on roof to get best out of it , so if costs are a issue its easier just to link it to hot water cylinder only.

The reason i like it linked to buffer is that any clear bright winter days could help heat the buffer tank and save you on the heating bills.

Theres nothing too fancy control wise needed , just get good people in each area and you will be fine, get someone whos good with solar just to do the solar and get someone whos knows about linking the heating system to a buffer tank to do that.
Like the buffer tank wouldnt need any special controls , just thermostats linked to the appropriate pumps and controls. So get a good electrician to wire it for you and know exactly what your going for before he starts wiring.

The main thing with the buffer tank is it brings in extra costs in the installation and it takes up space, personally if i was going to have a stove it would be money very well spent to get a buffer with a extra coil you can link it to as it would help with the bills.

Becky4Clonmel

Thanks Outkast_IRE.

First day before I started building I had planned on using oil boiler + solar panels + stove with back boiler but after starting building was informed that location of stove in living area was too far away from hot press to safely install a stove with a back boiler. Since then though I have considered putting the hot water tank + buffer tank in attic so should be possible to go with back boiler again on stove. I presume there isn't ant issue with placing buffer & DHW tanks in attic?
I want to make as much use as possible of the solar so connecting it to the buffer seems to be the way to go.
Are there any brands of solar panels you would recommend for this type of system? In relation to the buffer tank, is there any particular manufacturer/supplier that you would have dealt with that I could speak with to get some info on the design to suit this layout.

Outkast_IRE

Theres no issue with siting them in attic as long as all systems are pressurised , other wise for the hot water you will need to site the tank feeding the cylinder higher again .

Also the buffer tank would have a hell of a lot of weight in it when full of water so be very sure the building would be designed to take the weight.

Only other thing is ensure all pipework and joints are lagged with good quality thick lagging afterwards to ensure no freezing of pipes in winter.

I will pm you with the solar i like and with info on buffer

brendan_donegal

I am about to start building my own house too (2200sqft, 2 storey) and I am also loking to use UFH all over the house with Oil condensing boiler + solar + stove with back boiler. I have already had to put in towel rails in the plans to cope with back boiler heat.
Question:
Buffer tank and Hot water tank, do they need to be close together? What size does the buffer tank need to be to make it worth while?
What is the water in the buffer tank useable for? Is it for showers and stuff or just for the heating system?

Sorry if I sound a bit confused...thats why i'm here...!!!

Outkast_IRE

brendan_donegal wrote: »

I am about to start building my own house too (2200sqft, 2 storey) and I am also loking to use UFH all over the house with Oil condensing boiler + solar + stove with back boiler. I have already had to put in towel rails in the plans to cope with back boiler heat.
Question:
Buffer tank and Hot water tank, do they need to be close together? What size does the buffer tank need to be to make it worth while?
What is the water in the buffer tank useable for? Is it for showers and stuff or just for the heating system?

Sorry if I sound a bit confused...thats why i'm here...!!!

It doesnt have to be next to hot water tank but a lot of the time they are located in same room to make piping a lot easier.

A buffer tank is also called an accumulator tank , there is good information available if you google accumulator tank and heating. It is only linked to what we would traditionally call the "heating system".

An accumulator tank is basicaly as the name suggests an accumulator , all your heat sources are seperately linked to it , each has its own coil running through the tank , the water in the tank acts as a large store of water which you heat anytime you run boiler / stove/ or solar if you connect it to it.
This accumulator tank then distributes the heated water where needed , either throught the heating system or through coil in the hot water cylinder . The advanteges are this It allows boilers connected to it to work more efficently as they are only heating the coil in the accumulator , this also applies to stoves as any time you run the stove it will contribute to heating this accumulator tank,
It also allows you to keep one system pressurised while keeping another open vented.
Also if you link your solar to it and size your solar appropriately then clear sky winter days could help heat the accumulator and help heat the home later.

To size a buffer tank you would need someone who knows the energy requirements of your system , get a professional if you want this done right.

brendan_donegal

ok so for solar + oil + stove + hot water tank + Buffer

1. What controls all of this? What says no to oil burner coming on if the stove is on, etc? What decides if we need more heat or to stop heating?
2. How do I size my boiler, I see all sorts of calculators out there but all have set fields and not all are relevant for my build, like none of them mention dry lining for all external walls and ceilings upstairs, etc, etc. Also how do I take into account my solar and back boiler on the stove in the calculations. Do I need to go to college for 3 years.....:-)

Outkast_IRE

brendan_donegal wrote: »

ok so for solar + oil + stove + hot water tank + Buffer

1. What controls all of this? What says no to oil burner coming on if the stove is on, etc? What decides if we need more heat or to stop heating?
2. How do I size my boiler, I see all sorts of calculators out there but all have set fields and not all are relevant for my build, like none of them mention dry lining for all external walls and ceilings upstairs, etc, etc. Also how do I take into account my solar and back boiler on the stove in the calculations. Do I need to go to college for 3 years.....:-)

If you want it done right , get a professional to do it, if you have an architect im sure he could reccomend someone.

As for controls, there will be thermostats on the buffer tank, linked back to relavent pumps and controls, if your going down this route its worth paying someone to design it so it functions right . Otherwise stick with the standard setup.

brendan_donegal

My plumber says I should use the solar to heat the Hot water and use any excess to heat the Buffer. He says this is a much more efficent way to use solar?

Any thoughts?

Outkast_IRE

brendan_donegal wrote: »

My plumber says I should use the solar to heat the Hot water and use any excess to heat the Buffer. He says this is a much more efficent way to use solar?

Any thoughts?

If the system layout would allow it to be done its fine should just be a case of putting in a 3 port valve i would imagine and an extra tee in the return.

Both ways achieve the same end result your just giving priority to hot water, go with whichever suits your house , if all the showers etc are fed from cylinder hot water then it might be an advantage in your case. Just make sure you get someone good to set it up though as you would need 2 sets of thermostats , one set at cylinder and another at buffer and set up controls to suit this configuration.

If it was my own build i would get thermomax tubes and size them to suit the buffer and link them to buffer just personal prefrence.

brendan_donegal

Anyone heard of a "Tank in Tank" system?
One of my plumbers has suggested this system ahead of a sepearte buffer, he said it is much more efficent than 2 seperate tanks.
Anyone got any experience/thoughts?

Outkast_IRE

brendan_donegal wrote: »

Anyone heard of a "Tank in Tank" system?
One of my plumbers has suggested this system ahead of a sepearte buffer, he said it is much more efficent than 2 seperate tanks.
Anyone got any experience/thoughts?

I wouldnt say its much more efficent, my only concern would be if there was ever a problem it could be difficult to fix and you would end up replacing entire unit again.

the thing with the tank in tank is you would always be heating the hot water all the time that might suit your needs but for others it wouldnt.
also im sure they cost more in comparison to same sizer seperate buffer and cylinder.