Government Expense . . The Entitlement Culture . . .

Drumpot

There are many definitions of the phrase "entitlement" -

1. The act or process of entitling.
2. The state of being entitled.
3. A government program that guarantees and provides benefits to a particular group

The single biggest hurdle to reform is this word. I dont just mean reform in the public service, I mean the reform of the Irish People. My family are in receipt of several Social Welfare "entitlements" so I do not speak from an Ivory tower, full of self serving rhetoric.

Firstly, lets deal with those on Social welfare. Ireland, at the peak of employment, had something like 95% employment. This meant that only 5% of the population were unable or unwanting to work. I am not sure what the percentage is, but I am sure some of these people were genuine recipients of welfare they required. That said, the amount of welfare provided is ridiculous. I am delighted that I can avail (and will avail as long as my family can) of such generous welfare benefits as long as they proceed.

That said, there is a good argument for these to be reduced dramitically, especially for people on longer term unemployment. Of course the government needs to be able to offer jobs before they can start slashing this particular bill, but it should be a longer term strategy of our government to give more incentives for people to work.

Secondly, the current Irish pension that is provided to Pensioner's (including my dad who rely's on it), should not be exempt from discussions on potential cuts. People who say "I worked for my life and deserve this pension" forget the fact that they deserve a pension from the state that doesnt necessarily reflect the current one provided. The reason our Pensioners state Pension was increased was down to the success of the economy. Its only fair that the decline in our states finances should be reflected in this payment. Methinks that the percentage of pensioner voters has alot to do with this sacred cow not even being on the table.

Now, lets deal with the obvious one, the Public/Civil Service. The concept of culture negates all logic. What a person thinks they are worth is subjective in all lines of work and life. However, when your employer has allowed you to believe that you are worth whatever you think, it means when an economic plague arises, these are the biggest mental victims in terms of coming to terms with the war that has ensued their surroundings. Some people think being only able to go on one holiday is hardship!! That is all that needs be said on that topic.

Entitlement is something that our politicians have used to hide behind when morals and ethics have been shrouded by the grey area's of what really constitutes being criminal as opposed to just taking advantage of a weak system. I think that after a few years of hardship, the people of Ireland will of learned a harsh lesson and hopefully the entitlement culture will be banished.

Tea drinker

Tha banking sector took far more in the last 2 years than the social. I would look at the sense of entitlement in this area. McWilliams was on yesterday about a group of bankers, DOF and GOV people in 2005 were looking at protecting the Irish banks, by keeping them in Irish ownership.
How arrogant are they to think that Irish expertise is required at the helm.
Disgusting to think the treasonous acts perpetrated on Irish people by this by this bunch.

Social is what 20bn a year? Sure, needs some slashing, but pay attention to people who can well afford cuts rather than those who can't.
Cutting dole to make people work when there are no jobs is not the best incentive. Of course, the dole and rent allowance should never have been inflated like it was. Social payments the last few years before the crash......Raises and bonuses for doing nothing, bit silly really.

Pharaoh1

The sense of "entitlement" was brought home to me recently talking to a relative who has worked for AIB for more than 25 years.
She firmly believes that she signed up for a pension deal (I think 2/3 final salary + gratuity) and that this should/must/will be honoured.

I pointed out that
(a) The company she works for is essentially bust
(b) She has been paying a pittance into this so called fund which is only a small fraction of the cost of the pension and the fairies are unlikely to be depositing large amounts of cash into it.

Why is it that she can't/won't see the reality of the situation.
I suppose that when she joined AIB it was seen as the solid/respectable career with a certain status.
Is it that she can't let go of this mindset despite the reality of what has happened?

HivemindXX

I can sympathise with that attitude (that the contract they made should be honoured) when they see those at the top getting €3M despite essentially gutting the company.

It's a bitter pill to swallow that most staff must suffer while the top level still get gold plated handjobs as a reward for screwing up.

I think they will have to swallow that pill anyway but I don't begrudge them their complaints about the fact. I also think the pill will go down easier if they see some suffering from the top level of management as well.

Tea drinker

Pharoah,
in some ways that's understandable: 25 years ago AIB was a real bank, with good solid "fundamentals" :-) and business strategy. Since then the financial services business has exploded, morphing solid, safe banking houses into Casino-banks. The transformation seemed good at the time, and not many people realise we got here today due to changed business practices. It's not Lehmans, or a regulator failure, it's a failure of regulation in each private bank and an overall systemic failure of financial services. Your relative needs to realise she works in something like a mafia business, not some nice banker from a wonderful life.

Hivemind, If the board allow that to ride they need to be aware of the consequences on morale. My guess is right now they don't care as they want to get people to leave, and they will need to motivate people strongly to do so, due to the job market conditions. Staff always get screwed in a crisis, unless you are top management of course !

RichardAnd

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

The sense of "entitlement" was brought home to me recently talking to a relative who has worked for AIB for more than 25 years.
She firmly believes that she signed up for a pension deal (I think 2/3 final salary + gratuity) and that this should/must/will be honoured.

I pointed out that
(a) The company she works for is essentially bust
(b) She has been paying a pittance into this so called fund which is only a small fraction of the cost of the pension and the fairies are unlikely to be depositing large amounts of cash into it.

Why is it that she can't/won't see the reality of the situation.
I suppose that when she joined AIB it was seen as the solid/respectable career with a certain status.
Is it that she can't let go of this mindset despite the reality of what has happened?

I don't think that expecting a contract to be honoured is entitlement. Your friend in question signed a contract that promised a pension and to expect that to be paid is just normal. I work for a software company and when we agree a contract with a customer on bespoke software, they expect us to deliver the product as agreed.

Now, whether your friend will get her pension is a totally different matter. If there is no money, then no she will not get her pension but that doesn't mean she should just accept her employer breaking her terms of employment. Recession or not, people do need to stand up for themselves.

Also, the issue of pensions being promised from empty coffers is a problem that is going to get a whole lot worse in coming years.

Moomoo1

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

The sense of "entitlement" was brought home to me recently talking to a relative who has worked for AIB for more than 25 years.
She firmly believes that she signed up for a pension deal (I think 2/3 final salary + gratuity) and that this should/must/will be honoured.

I pointed out that
(a) The company she works for is essentially bust
(b) She has been paying a pittance into this so called fund which is only a small fraction of the cost of the pension and the fairies are unlikely to be depositing large amounts of cash into it.

Why is it that she can't/won't see the reality of the situation.
I suppose that when she joined AIB it was seen as the solid/respectable career with a certain status.
Is it that she can't let go of this mindset despite the reality of what has happened?

if the boot was on the other foot, e.g. she was striking for better pay, everyone would be screaming 'you signed a contract to do your work and are now breaking it'.

Drumpot

Pharaoh1 wrote: »

The sense of "entitlement" was brought home to me recently talking to a relative who has worked for AIB for more than 25 years.
She firmly believes that she signed up for a pension deal (I think 2/3 final salary + gratuity) and that this should/must/will be honoured.

I pointed out that
(a) The company she works for is essentially bust
(b) She has been paying a pittance into this so called fund which is only a small fraction of the cost of the pension and the fairies are unlikely to be depositing large amounts of cash into it.

Why is it that she can't/won't see the reality of the situation.
I suppose that when she joined AIB it was seen as the solid/respectable career with a certain status.
Is it that she can't let go of this mindset despite the reality of what has happened?

How is that any differant from public servants expecting their own pension entitlements to be honored ? Ireland Inc is also bust, yet many recipients of this Pension have been getting incremental increases (in relation to increased salaries of their existing position) even after they had left!

And when a contract is agreed, it is done so based on the financial fundamental position of the company. What many seem to struggle with is that it doesnt matter what you think you are "entitled" to when a company/country gets into trouble. If a company/country goes bust, all bets are off and anything goes. That is of course unless you have a spineless or corrupt boss at the top (government/directors) only looking after themselves before they let the rest of us bottom feed off the remaning bones!.

deise blue

You only receive a 2/3rds pension on completion of 45 years service , if you retire earlier your pension is reduced pro rata nor is any gratuity payable in either case.

More importantly the pension scheme is a total separate entity from the parent company and as such the precarious nature of AIB's finances are not reflected in the pension scheme.

So yes the employee in question has a reasonable expectation of receiving a decent pension.