More scrappage madness

Leonard Hofstadter

In today's Irish Times:

Now there is a lot of disposable rubbish being scrapped, such as Toyota Corollas and Nissan Almeras and quite frankly the world is a better place every time one of these two horrible cars is taken off the road, and I don't really care about lots of Fiat Puntos being disposed of either, but you should see some of the good cars that have been taken off the road because of the scheme for junk like Renaults and Toyotas (the biggest selling brands under the scrappage scheme - the general public's ability to look at all the cars available and then choose the worst possible car on sale never fails to amaze me):

- 87 X BMW 3 series
- 6 X Audi A4 this year
- 1 X BMW X5

And then some of the really good cars the scheme has taken the lives from:

- 2 X BMW 7 series
- 210 Mercs last year
- 4 X Jaguar (though if they're X-Types I don't really care)

And then there is even more bad news:

- eight Lexus:eek:

Now I know it is popular to say that Lexi are just posh Toyotas despite the fact that Audis have far more in common with Skoda and VW than Lexi do with Toyota, but of course the fact that Audi is German means its ok to do that kind of thing even though Lexus using a small number of Toyota parts somehow isn't ok:rolleyes:, but Lexi are deservedly renowned for their reliability so there is absolutely no way those cars are anywhere near the end of their useful lives.

But we haven't even got to the worst part yet:

- someone scrapped an Audi S8, not an A8, but an S8:eek::eek:

I hope that the person who scrapped an Audi S8 dies a painful death.

What an absolute tool:(!

Anan1

What's the big deal about scrapping an S8? Happens somewhere every day, i'd imagine.

colm_mcm

The reality is that these cars wouldn't have been worth €1500. I'm sure there were serious problems with most of those.

I won't be upset about 316i or 1.6 a4s being killed off.

Raskolnikov

captainspeed wrote: »

Now I know it is popular to say that Lexi are just posh Toyotas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YllyBr_4Kxk

Are you Alan Partridge?

captainspeed

captainspeed wrote: »

Now there is a lot of disposable rubbish being scrapped, such as Toyota Corollas and Nissan Almeras and quite frankly the world is a better place every time one of these two horrible cars is taken off the road, and I don't really care about lots of Fiat Puntos being disposed of either

Some 1,049 Fiestas were handed in to be replaced by new cars. This was followed by 835 Toyota Corollas, 834 Nissan Micras, 569 Fiat Puntos and 508 Nissan Almeras, according to figures for cars scrapped up until the end of February.

You forgot the Fiesta

ShadowHearth

1000 fiestas lol?!

One thing that is too much of surprise - BMW x5?

Surely they are worth more then 1.5k even with faults...

greenermetals

We got a good few scrappage cars in here last year, i put the pick of them up on my blog a while ago, you might have to scroll down a bit to see it,

www.scrapmycar.ie/blog

Also on another thread

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056202559

Some of the cars are mint....it is a sin really

phill106

Sounds like a great way to get parts for a car
Must ask neighbour to keep an eye out for people scapping passats!

Big Nasty

Anan1 wrote: »

What's the big deal about scrapping an S8?

A Lot!:mad:

Anan1

MCMLXXV wrote: »

A Lot!:mad:

Honestly, why? It's a mass produced car, and values are far too low to make restoration viable when it's reached the end of its service life. I once had to scrap an S1 Lancia Fulvia Sport Zagato after it had been burnt out, and that nearly broke my heart, but an S8 - pffft.

Big Nasty

Anan1 wrote: »

Honestly, why? It's a mass produced car, and values are far too low to make restoration viable when it's reached the end of its service life. I once had to scrap an S1 Lancia Fulvia Sport Zagato after it had been burnt out, and that nearly broke my heart, but an S8 - pffft.

Like mentioned above there are a lot of desireable cars in very good condition being scrapped that enthusiasts would gladly pay €1500 for. The S8 and 740 being two examples, especially when they have NCT and are quoted as being in good condition.

Anan1

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Like mentioned above there are a lot of desireable cars in very good condition being scrapped that enthusiasts would gladly pay €1500 for. The S8 and 740 being two examples, especially when they have NCT and are quoted as being in good condition.

I wouldn't read too much into 'quoted as being in good condition' myself.;) In any case, if enthusiasts would gladly pay €1500 to save these 'desirable' cars from being scrapped then why don't they?

Big Nasty

Anan1 wrote: »

I wouldn't read too much into 'quoted as being in good condition' myself.;) In any case, if enthusiasts would gladly pay €1500 to save these 'desirable' cars from being scrapped then why don't they?

They would, but it's a little late finding out about them after the fact.

homer90

greenermetals wrote: »

We got a good few scrappage cars in here last year, i put the pick of them up on my blog a while ago, you might have to scroll down a bit to see it,

www.scrapmycar.ie/blog

The 740i was exchanged for a Toyota Aygo.

:eek:

Im sure he realises the error of his/her ways by now !

Anan1

MCMLXXV wrote: »

They would, but it's a little late finding out about them after the fact.

If buyers were there then the cars wouldn't be being scrapped in the first place. The truth of the matter is that there are a lot more people complaining than there are putting up the €1500 to save a car. And trust me when I say that if you can't even afford €1500 to save a D2 S8 then you certainly can't afford to run one!

Big Nasty

Anan1 wrote: »

If buyers were there then the cars wouldn't be being scrapped in the first place. The truth of the matter is that there are a lot more people complaining than there are putting up the €1500 to save a car.

Eh, have they been advertised?

Anan1 wrote: »

And trust me when I say that if you can't even afford €1500 to save a D2 S8 then you certainly can't afford to run one!

Sorry, who is this directed at? The person scrapping, the theoretical buyer or me?

E39MSport

Re: the 7er - From memory greenermetals said he used generic photos sourced from www

E39MSport

E39MSport wrote: »

Re: the 7er - From memory greenermetals said he used generic photos sourced from www

Yep, the one in the pic is lhd too.

Anan1

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Eh, have they been advertised?

Any dealer can sell any car into the trade for market value simply by picking up the phone - if any of these cars were worth more on the open market than as scrappage then that's where they'd go.

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Sorry, who is this directed at? The person scrapping, the theoretical buyer or me?

Any potential buyer - I had a D2 A8 4.2 40v for a while, and they're a very expensive car to run. Were I buying one again it'd want to be a cosseted example - maintenance & repair costs are so high that a ratty one just isn't worth anything.

Big Nasty

Anan1 wrote: »

Any dealer can sell any car into the trade for market value simply by picking up the phone - if any of these cars were worth more on the open market than as scrappage then that's where they'd go.

Any potential buyer - I had a D2 A8 4.2 40v for a while, and they're a very expensive car to run. Were I buying one again it'd want to be a cosseted example - maintenance & repair costs are so high that a ratty one just isn't worth anything.

So you reckon all these stories of people seeing minty examples is waffle? Granted there could well be fresh looking cars out there with the engine and box hanging out of them.:pac:

Also I'm well aware of the costs of running a large car myself if that's what you're trying to tell me - I'm up to 12.6L between 3 cars at the moment.;)

greenermetals

all the cars were baled soon after they arrived, so i used stock photos.

the seven series was spotless, it was silver, good tyres, full leather interior, 80000 miles, the only thing i could spot wrong with it was a touch of moss on the rubber of one of the rear windows

greenermetals

and it was driving perfectly

Anan1

MCMLXXV wrote: »

So you reckon all these stories of people seeing minty examples is waffle? Granted there could well be fresh looking cars out there with the engine and box hanging out of them.:pac:

It'd be my strong suspicion. I think people tend to think 'Wow, that car cost €130k only 10 years ago, how could it possibly be worth nothing now' without actually looking at the economics of the thing. Like you, I love older large-engined cars, but once they're allowed to slide they quickly become (in monetary terms) worthless. God knows, it's hard enough selling a genuinely excellent older large-engined car these days.

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Also I'm well aware of the costs of running a large car myself if that's what you're trying to tell me - I'm up to 12.6L between 3 cars at the moment.;)

I know that you know your stuff - i've been reading your posts for a while now! Sorry if anything I said came off as in any way personal - that's definitely not how I meant it!:)

Buffman

greenermetals wrote: »

all the cars were baled soon after they arrived

So they're not even used for parts!:mad:

VolvoMan

captainspeed wrote: »

- 87 X BMW 3 series
- 6 X Audi A4 this year
- 1 X BMW X5

Don't really care about these, as long as they're not anything greater than an A4 1.8 or a 318i, which they most likely aren't.

The X5 in particular I'd nearly pay to see crushed.

ShadowHearth

VolvoMan wrote: »

Don't really care about these, as long as they're not anything greater than an A4 1.8 or a 318i, which they most likely aren't.

The X5 in particular I'd nearly pay to see crushed.

Count me in!

E39MSport

MCMLXXV wrote: »

So you reckon all these stories of people seeing minty examples is waffle? Granted there could well be fresh looking cars out there with the engine and box hanging out of them.:pac:

Also I'm well aware of the costs of running a large car myself if that's what you're trying to tell me - I'm up to 12.6L between 3 cars at the moment.;)

oooohh, pi55ing contest. I'm in

maidhc

I don't see the big deal here. A car is a car at the end of the day.

I am going to begin the slighly sad process of dismantling my old Ford Mondeo over the weekend. Have it since new in 1995, and it covered over 240k miles which by any measure can be considered "trouble free". It still looks close to immaculate but it has issues, and has the potential to become a money pit, and the most cost effective thing was to scrap it for a new 1.6TDCi Focus.

I am keeping quite a lot of the car, i.e. head, turbo, injector pump, doors, a new radio it got a while back and some interior fixtures for parts to keep two other Mk1s on the road. The chassis awill be trailered to the Main dealer. If I can keep the whole engine I will.

Matt Simis

To take the S8 as an example;
An S8 is worth more than EUR1500 in parts alone in Ireland and/or could be sold abroad for even more still.

I dont think its accurate to assume the owner or trade valued it at EUR1500 either as almost certainly the "deal" was struck involving some made up "cash saving" plus the scrappage if the deal was done there and then. They would certainly "convinced" by the dealer this is their only chance to offload the car too.

I too hate the idea of classic (or interesting) or even just working cars being scrapped on several levels, but this comes up a lot (here and abroad).. there are always some that will do the "its just a piece of metal speal"..
Thats true, but not all metal is the same, there is engineering merit in some, emotional merit in others, or in the case of the car from Ronin (that exact S8 scrapped).. both.


Leather sports seats, sports suspension, Tiptronic, 360bhp 4.2 V8 engine, AWD, Rust proof all Aluminium chassis, 155mph+... to anyone with half an imagination we arent talking about scrapping a rusty old Carina here are we? There simply is a difference. Ze Germans rightly think we are mental.

David09

Does anyone remember the pics of the airfield in the U.K. filled with cars awaiting the crusher? Twas a sickening sight.

daRobot

Threads like these make me very, very sad

I know some of these barges can be money pits, but just to bale them?? Christ almighty, it's just an incomprehensible waste.

David09

Ah! Here we go:

VolvoMan

maidhc wrote: »

I am going to begin the slighly sad process of dismantling my old Ford Mondeo over the weekend. Have it since new in 1995, and it covered over 240k miles which by any measure can be considered "trouble free". It still looks close to immaculate but it has issues, and has the potential to become a money pit, and the most cost effective thing was to scrap it for a new 1.6TDCi Focus.

So you're scrapping a car that doesn't necessarily have anything wrong with it now, but you think it will in the future?

Sounds pretty ridiculous to me....

Reloc8

Why is that ridiculous ? He's considered the condition of the car and reckons now is the time to realise most value he can from it, as things will only go downhill from here...

Poster says it has issues, he presumably has established the best value he can get for it (a 1995 Mondeo) is the parts/scrap - I don't get why you think that's ridiculous.

maidhc

VolvoMan wrote: »

So you're scrapping a car that doesn't necessarily have anything wrong with it now, but you think it will in the future?

Sounds pretty ridiculous to me....

Well here goes:

1) Syncho dodgy in 3rd gear
2) Needs new shocks, springs, and an indeterminate number of bushings
3) Clutch is the 1st day one, and bites a little high
4) Engine is getting a little smokey, although still no where near Toureg/Q7 territory
5) New windscreen
6) New Tyres
7) Slight rust on o/s sill. Will need welding to pass an NCT within a couple of years
8) Needs new front bumper
9) Lights need new lenses due to age
10) New bulbs needed in dash
11) Buckled alloy thanks to our wonderful roads
12) €600 a year tax v's €100 for newer more powerful car
13) 35-40mpg v. 50-55mpg for a new car
14) Was an economic write off in a crash last year, and while repaired, insurance companies make insuring it difficult.
15) Alternator bearing gone
16) A 2011 car will be a nicer place to be!

Coupled with the fact new cars are now as cheap as chips, (The mondeo was over IEP17,000 new! when you could buy a house for about IEP30,000), it often makes sense just to move on.

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

... to anyone with half an imagination we arent talking about scrapping a rusty old Carina here are we? There simply is a difference. Ze Germans rightly think we are mental.

If you're suggesting gutting the car for parts prior to scrapping it then i'm right with you. Otherwise, I think the Germans might scrap their old S8s too.

Leonard Hofstadter

maidhc wrote: »

Well here goes:

1) Syncho dodgy in 3rd gear
2) Needs new shocks, springs, and an indeterminate number of bushings
3) Clutch is the 1st day one, and bites a little high
4) Engine is getting a little smokey, although still no where near Toureg/Q7 territory
5) New windscreen
6) New Tyres
7) Slight rust on o/s sill. Will need welding to pass an NCT within a couple of years
8) Needs new front bumper
9) Lights need new lenses due to age
10) New bulbs needed in dash
11) Buckled alloy thanks to our wonderful roads
12) €600 a year tax v's €100 for newer more powerful car
13) 35-40mpg v. 50-55mpg for a new car
14) Was an economic write off in a crash last year, and while repaired, insurance companies make insuring it difficult.
15) Alternator bearing gone
16) A 2011 car will be a nicer place to be!

Coupled with the fact new cars are now as cheap as chips, (The mondeo was over IEP17,000 new! when you could buy a house for about IEP30,000), it often makes sense just to move on.

In fairness that's a bit of a list of things wrong, and at least you're keeping a lot of bits from it. I don't see anything wrong with doing that really. The car has given good service (240k miles is no mean achievement) so it probably is time to move it on now.

My objection with the scrappage scheme is people scrapping perfectly good cars, some of which have rather low mileage for their age and would have been able for several more years on the road before being crushed.

As I said already, scrapping the likes of S8s and 7 series, Lexi etc etc when these cars are built to last a very long time is just insane, and also because they are worth something to the small but significant number of enthusiasts out there.

Even scrapping ordinary cars with low mileage is crazy - I know of people who scrapped cars with only 50,000 miles on the clock:eek:!

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

If you're suggesting gutting the car for parts prior to scrapping it then i'm right with you. Otherwise, I think the Germans might scrap their old S8s too.

Are you mad!? Only in Ireland are people scrapping S8s. Such cars are $7000+ in the US and at an absolute min EUR4000 in Germany!:

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/search.html?scopeId=C&isSearchRequest=true&sortOption.sortBy=price.consumerGrossEuro&makeModelVariant1.makeId=1900&makeModelVariant1.modelId=22
Plenty there with 200k km, 1997-98 asking 6 grand.


I think you are not appreciating the rarity and value an S8 has over a vanilla A8.


EDIT:
Comparisons to Germany and the US are slightly misleading as they dont have a VRT like tax. 1997-8 Audi S8 in the Netherlands is more representative..:
http://www.autoscout24.eu/Details.aspx?id=veyl2ynglcfa
EUR14,000+ !
http://www.autoscout24.eu/Details.aspx?id=vjvt24tfrdai
EUR12,000+ !

I work with people from across Europe and as Ive mentioned before they are looking at the cost of RHD to LHD conversions and finding that its cheaper to buy here and do a conversion than buy anywhere else in Europe. This is an Irish phenomenon. So again, this is yet another example of Irish people not having a damn clue on the value of things.

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

Are you mad!? Only in Ireland are people scrapping S8s. Such cars are $7000+ in the US and at an absolute min EUR4000 in Germany!:

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/search.html?scopeId=C&isSearchRequest=true&sortOption.sortBy=price.consumerGrossEuro&makeModelVariant1.makeId=1900&makeModelVariant1.modelId=22
Plenty there with 200k km, 1997-98 asking 6 grand.


I think you are not appreciating the rarity and value an S8 has over a vanilla A8.

And I think you are not appreciating the difference between a good, well-maintained S8 and a ratty one.:)

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

And I think you are not appreciating the difference between a good, well-maintained S8 and a ratty one.:)

Again the parts alone are worth far more than the scrappage deal, but even then, why make the assumption the scrapped cars are "ratty"?

My S8 was sold with no service history, no NCT but with some patience and small investments of parts, is now a solid daily driver. The scrappage cars have NCTs for a start so they gotta be in better condition.

Its a solid, durable car and its exceptionally well made.. it doesnt get "ratty" IMO.

E39MSport

unlike you

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

Again the parts alone are worth far more than the scrappage deal, but even then, why make the assumption the scrapped cars are "ratty"?

I'm questioning the apparent assumption in this thread that they're not - cosseted cars tend to be bought & sold among enthusiasts, rather than being traded in for scrappage. If the parts are worth more than the scrappage deal then why aren't they being sold separately?

Matt Simis wrote: »

My S8 was sold with no service history, no NCT but with some patience and small investments of parts, is now a solid daily driver. The scrappage cars have NCTs for a start so they gotta be in better condition.

You of all people should know better than this - an elderly car is quite capable of throwing a terminal fault within days of passing an NCT.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Its a solid, durable car and its exceptionally well made.. it doesnt get "ratty" IMO.

Sure it does, all cars get ratty when they're not cared for.

In summary, I think people are being far too quick to swallow the line that perfect, desirable cars are being needlessly scrapped. Who says that these cars are too good to scrap, did they examine them properly, and are they qualified to judge? Without proper answers to these questions it's sounding a lot like hot air to me..

Edit: Take this description, from greenermetals, for example:

greenermetals wrote: »

the seven series was spotless, it was silver, good tyres, full leather interior, 80000 miles, the only thing i could spot wrong with it was a touch of moss on the rubber of one of the rear windows

I mean no offence to greenermetals when I say that that's simply not an informed appraisal of a car.

Matt Simis

Ive never had any car throw a "terminal fault" unexpected (by me). I would trust the NCT to find the "big things" wrong.

While its true the models could have been in poor condition, I would tow the middle ground, they likely were in "tatty" condition but mechanically sound enough. We cannot assume that in NL/DE everycar is "cosseted" either, some of them likely are not but the value of these cars abroad several times the EUR1500 you stuck to them in this thread. That cannot be a correct real world value, the delta is way too big.

Why were they not sold for parts? I dont know.. do you? :P

maidhc

Matt Simis wrote: »

Ive never had any car throw a "terminal fault" unexpected (by me). I would trust the NCT to find the "big things" wrong.

While its true the models could have been in poor condition, I would tow the middle ground, they likely were in "tatty" condition but mechanically sound enough. We cannot assume that in NL/DE everycar is "cosseted" either, some of them likely are not but the value of these cars abroad several times the EUR1500 you stuck to them in this thread. That cannot be a correct real world value, the delta is way too big.

Why were they not sold for parts? I dont know.. do you? :P

The value of a car is what people will pay for it. If poeple will not pay more than the scrappage value for these cars, then they get scrapped... and clearly that is what is happening.

I bet you few 01 Golf TDis are being scrapped!

Big Nasty

maidhc wrote: »

The value of a car is what people will pay for it. If poeple will not pay more than the scrappage value for these cars, then they get scrapped... and clearly that is what is happening.

I bet you few 01 Golf TDis are being scrapped!

That's a fair point and effectively if there's little or no demand for a certain type of car then it has little or no value. I suppose Matt is looking outside the box though, i.e. average European values and the value an enthusiast would put on a certain car are way different to the general Irish value at this level. Mainly due to our motortax rates you can pick up serious heavy metal here now for less than in the UK.

High tax and fuel costs make examples like 10 year old 740 / S8's undesireable to the masses which drives their 'value' down. Good news for the likes of me who would rather drive around in comfort and style and pay high tax bills than hike around in a newer Corolla / Focus and watch it depreciate heavily each year. Luxobarges can be picked up for peanuts these days - but that doesn't mean good examples should be sent to the crusher.

Anan1

MCMLXXV wrote: »

- but that doesn't mean good examples should be sent to the crusher.

None of us want to see that. I was thinking earlier about the idea of stripping these cars before crushing and recycling components abroad - then I remembered that one S8 got scrapped!

Big Nasty

Anan1 wrote: »

None of us want to see that. I was thinking earlier about the idea of stripping these cars before crushing and recycling components abroad - then I remembered that one S8 got scrapped!

Far as I can see if we were LHD drivers a lot of our luxobarges would be sold to Europe - well they would be if they had a service history!

VolvoMan

maidhc wrote: »

Well here goes:

1) Syncho dodgy in 3rd gear
2) Needs new shocks, springs, and an indeterminate number of bushings
3) Clutch is the 1st day one, and bites a little high
4) Engine is getting a little smokey, although still no where near Toureg/Q7 territory
5) New windscreen
6) New Tyres
7) Slight rust on o/s sill. Will need welding to pass an NCT within a couple of years
8) Needs new front bumper
9) Lights need new lenses due to age
10) New bulbs needed in dash
11) Buckled alloy thanks to our wonderful roads
12) €600 a year tax v's €100 for newer more powerful car
13) 35-40mpg v. 50-55mpg for a new car
14) Was an economic write off in a crash last year, and while repaired, insurance companies make insuring it difficult.
15) Alternator bearing gone
16) A 2011 car will be a nicer place to be!

Coupled with the fact new cars are now as cheap as chips, (The mondeo was over IEP17,000 new! when you could buy a house for about IEP30,000), it often makes sense just to move on.

They still all sound like relatively minor faults to me and it seems like you're just looking for reasons to scrap it.

I don't get people's logic in this country where they're reluctant to replace wear and tear items on a car when it becomes old. You'll find they then try to justify taking out finance to buy a new car under the scrappage scheme so they can save 400-500 or so euro a year in road tax.

Matt Simis wrote: »

Are you mad!? Only in Ireland are people scrapping S8s. Such cars are $7000+ in the US and at an absolute min EUR4000 in Germany!:

In the UK and Ireland cars are determined by registration first, car second. It's as simple as that.

It infuriates me the attitude that us two nations have towards perfectly serviceable older cars.