Flying with firearms within the EU [Longish post]

Grizzly 45

I've finally got a moment to write this up,after reading the Irish ferries thread,I thought this might be of use to some still fortunate enough to afford a shooting holiday with their guns.

All this started off last Nov .Well,abit before this about five months previously where I got an invite to go shooting in Hungary with my uncle and cousin.So it was going to be a flight from Ireland,Germany and a road trip to Hungary,somwhat close to the Rumanian border.Place called Abadszalok.

So off I went to my local Gardai to see about getting the EU firearms passport.My local FAO sighed with great relif that it wasnt another application for somthing that would give him and the local Super many sleepless nights, and rummaged under the station counter and closets for the forms.
Not finding any or being the wiser after consulting the computor,he promised to chase it up for me within the week.
True to his word he did and got me to nip into Henry St for the form collection and filling. Henry St FA section Gardai [100%fair dues to them on this] Got the whole procedure and paperwork sorted out within 24 hours of me being in there with my liscenses and two mugshots.I put all my firearms on the EU passport to save bother if I travel with them in future. So that was in July,I duly scanned the passport and revelant liscenses off to my uncle and let him get on with organising the paperwork on his side.
Which wasnt much..Send photocopy of his and my liscenses,and proof of me being insured, and booking slip to hunting company in Hungary.Wait about ten days and returned with Hungarian liscenses valid for 30 days in the district of Abadszalok

Next job was getting a flight.
Getting off this rock with a firearm via air to somplace within reasonable distance of your holiday destination can be quite a challange betimes if you are out in the boonies.Forget Ryanair with firearms.Aer Lingus was just too awkward in price and times,British airways not going anywhere where I needed to go and paperwork for firearms transport thru Heathrow was unbeliveable .

I finally got a KLM flight,Cork Schipol,Nurenberg return.Grand sofar,that put me a half hours run up the autobahn from my uncles house.

I contacted KLM as well to explain the situation[They have a website phone number that deals straight away with firearms and other non ordinary baggage] And couldnt have been more helpfulin this project.

I also needed this checked direct thru to Nurenberg,as the stopover times in Schipol arealways extremly short,and that airport is absolutely massive.So KLM suggested I contact Dutch customs and get a pre clearence certificate.This was duly done,and took about two weeks to do from the Dutch side.Dutch customs dont belive in emails BTW,they still like the old fax machine for corrospondence. A bit of a PITA,but well worth the effort belive you me.
Sent them a photocopy of the EU firearms passport,and Irish FAC ,and a downloadable form from the customs website,linked from KLM with the flight details in and outbound time and date,and firearm description and serial numbers,pretty much a box ticking exercise of a page length.Form covers everything from arms deals and shipments to you moving one or two sporting firearms.
The Germans didnt require any paperwork to be presented anywhere.Just the EU liscense and Irish FAC with some offical ID were I to be stopped in Germany,as I was transferring out of German soil to go shooting.

A pelicase was duly aquired from Cabelas in the US..Well they sent two by mistake,and thats another story.:DSerious bit of kit and worth every red cent too.
So the departure day arrived.An evening flight,which I really like.
Puttered off to Cork airport and went off to check in.
KLM of course is handled by Aer Lingus here,and after abit of unsureity on the check in staff as to wether they needed airport security,they simply directed me to excess baggage,where the box was Xrayed and a firearms sticker stuck on it.I went off to be more thouroghly examined by airport security than my shotgun was at the strip and Xray session.:)

Waiting for the flight to be called I was watching the baggage loading,and became damn glad I had bought a Pelibox,as I watched the baggage trolly come whizzing up to the plane as if the driver was practising for a chichane,with my gun on TOP of the Baggage cart roof!!!
Fortunatly it was loaded first with great pomp and ceremony by the security onto the aircraft, and off we went.

Whoever put the arrival of aircraft locations together with departure times of aircraft together in Schipol must never have set foot in the place,is a consumate marathon runner,or a sadist!
According to my ticket the departure time for Nurenberg was within 60 mins,on the other side of a mile long airport!!I havent done a 15 minute mile ,ever or a 30 minute mile either,and this was not the time to start doing it now either.Gasping for air [not to mind a cool Hineken] I double timed it to the gate throwing women and kids out of my way.Only to be informed by a very pleasent looking Dutch girl of KLM that the flight wasnt leaving for another 40 mins and that they always do that with the boarding times.
So that gave me plenty of time to sit and sweat,and think of nasty ways of doing in the sod who designed this airport and deprived me of a decent beer in months too.[Heineken here in Ireland is just water!:(]
Finally the flight was called for Nurenberg and I watched for a change my gun being loaded aboard from BELOW a fine stack of suitcases on the cart into the hold!:eek:

Nurenberg was fine to go through.
Bag and Peli box were first out on the belt.
There was one cop,but he left after seeing that it was only Dutch folk there, he knocked off duty and took himself off for a bier.
My cousin was waiting for me and home we went without any further ado.

HUNGARY
Driving thru Austria and into Hungary was no bother thanks to the Shenegen agreement.We only stopped at Hungary's frontier to buy a toll tag for their roads.
Last time I had been in Hungary was in 1984 when it was still communist and we were going deer hunting,and it was a totally different story of hour long waits,grim officaldom,glum looking and even grumpier ,AK47 toting border gaurds.
My uncle had recived my Hungarian hunting liscense which was valid for 30 days am month before the trip and with that,and my EU firearms passport,that was all that was required when we checked in at the reserve.
As I was using a semi auto that was plugged to three shots ,the Hungarians were only too happy to allow me to use it up to its full capacity of nine.They are well used to the Italians arriving with these types of guns and shooting all and sundry with them too.
Which did come in useful as well,as I managed to drop a "double" double of four cocks.[First was hitting the ground dead as I shot the last one in flight.:D]

HOMEWARD BOUND

Arriving at Nurenberg,it was more efficent and formal with the check in procedure.The check in staff called the German cops,who wanted to check my passport,EU permit,and the serial numbers of the gun.All done within two minutes by the cops and we had a good chat about the merits of HK pistols and SMGs while the check in crew hunted up the loaded firearms stickers
10 mins later....I was escorted up to the airside police by the German cops.The airside lads didnt even bother checking paperwork as they were hapy enough with the assurances of their kollegen that all was in order.

Doing the Schipol marathon again I finally did manage to grab a beer,and was chugging it down expecting to hit the security checkpoint and be thussly relived of it.Only to discover the crafty Dutch had now moved to outside the departure gate with their security checkpoint,and there was only like 200 plus Paddies wanting to get home,all with beers in hand!!
Meaning the plane wasnt going anywhere until that lot were cleared and I could have taken a leisurely stroll down there with beer in hand no trouble!
There is just no winning over there in that airport.

Arriving back in Cork is where the problems started!
Flight was in at 22:00hrs.By 22:45 yours truely is the last person at the baggage carosuel with his bag but minus a shotgun!! I make my way to the two bored lookinggroundstaff at the baggage terminal to tell them the problem I have,and very soon they will have tooo if this piece of baggage isnt accounted for.
Dragging one of them away from her Lancome break:mad:,I was informed somwhat huffily,that the Gardai at immigration have it,and I shoulda gone to dem first like! Feeling my teeth starting to grow rather pointy and my hair getting more shaggy by the minute I followed this paragon of customer service to the Garda post.Where the same offical who just checked me half an hour before and said diddly to me wanted to see my passport and EU firearms cert before handing over my gun.

I inform both him and customer service that I have been filling out forms on this in triplicate,my name has been flagged going to and coming back to Cork as somone travelling with a gun,and No one thought of announcing my name over the PA to go to immigration to collect this,but left me standing worrying like a proper Seamus at the baggage carousel instead??
I'll never forget the response."shure how could we do that??We dont know you at all,or what you look like":eek::eek::rolleyes:

On production of my Irish Cert,Garda immmigration man shows it to some private security officer ette ,that "dis is the new firearms cert now,I havent seen one like this,I usually only see the Italian ones and they is a big piece of paper like our old ones used to be here."[They are in fact in book/passport format and have been since Mussolini was around]
Security officerette just nodded and looked totally lost about all this too.

Finally I retrive my gun case,to be informed by Miss customer service that "I can go out dere like!"[IE the main exit]."thanks says I."I lost my basic reading skills during the flight "and depart the stage.
Yup it was good to be home again!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

THINGS LEARNED
Start preparing for a shooting trip by air well in advance of departure date.
Contact the airline and explain that you are travelling with firearms and transiting with very little stopover time,so whats the procedure with the stopover country clearing the firearms directly from plane to plane.
If it is a customs clearence get it!! It might be alot simpler than it was with the EU passport,but be belt&braces sure as you dont want to miss the flight.

If you are going abroad shooting, Insurance is mandatory!!No ifs or buts.
Check and double check that your policy will cover you within the EU ,up to at least a million euro plus for personal indemnity.CAI does cover the EU,and I rang them to be sure,to be sure.It was the first thing and pretty much the only thing the Hungarians checked on all our paperwork.

BE early at the airport!!Like maybe a few hours even before check in time.
Reason ...Depends on what time of the year you are flying ,and the last thing you want or groundstaff want to see is someone arriving with a major [for them] security event and needing special attention,while they have to finish off a few hundred sunshine passengers as well.Just get there early and be 1st in the que and they will sort you out quicker when the desk opens.


Unless there is a very specific reason that you must travel with ammo.IE it is for a hunting rifle or target ammo fair enough.But for shotgun,get the hunting company/guides to buy it for you .It works out cheaper than lugging it over in excess baggage costs and paperwork.

Get the BEST gun gun cases you can afford!!IOW IMHO Pelicase or Storm case.Your guncases will NOT be treated anyway differently from ordinary luggage,and will be proably treated worse.So you might as well spend the bobs and get somthing that can also be used as a aircraft chock,fuel truck jack support etc.

Oddly enough,everyone wil tell you of their horror stories flying from their native countries or returning to them of how badly they were treated by their officaldom on departing or arrivals[See my above example on returning home].Yet no one seems to have a problem being a tourist in other countries with firearms..
My theory is just expect hassle coming back or going out from your home country.

Strip your handbaggage down as well to absolutly bare essentials.IE wallet passport,tickets ,phone,Ipod and if possible get it all into somthing like a multi pocket vest.All you have to do is dump it alll in one on the security X ray belt.[BTW 511 tactical boots are well worth the bobs when going thru Xray machines in a hurry .They are non metallic and are side zipped if you do have to take them off,no hassle with lacing them].It just saves you alot of time if you have to run a good bit in these huge airports.


LOCKS [applies to USA at the mo,but likely to be in the EU soon too from inside sources!]
The US TSA will ,if you have an unopenable lock on your bags,take a bolt cutter to it and snip them off so they can rummage and proably in a few cases help themselves to some of your property.They can do this by law.

So there is this TSA approved combo lock made by Master lock.It has a key way that allows the TSA to open your combo lock with a specially issued to certain senior personel ,secure key,so they can have a good rummage etc.Trouble is;this is proably the most easiest key to forge or make,so all their assurances are a spiderweb worth of protection and assurance.

All it does is save you a fortune on busted locks on your guncase. If the US is doing it,you can be assured the great all knowing nanny of the EU super state will insist on this soon as well...So just buy TSA approved locks in the 1st place..


NOTE to Cork airport staff especially lost luggage claims.
Sorry if it is an inconvience that passengers might have a problem with lost luggage.But you are PAID to look after them even if it is 11oclock at night!!:mad:
Also,seeing that there isnt anywhere where you can find out what the procedure is when showing up with a firearm on Irish terrority,and you just expect it to come out the bagge carousel.If this isnt a standard operating procedure,would you mind just... possibly paging the passenger in question to come to the info desk..To tell them that the Gardai have their firearm and to collect it off them?? I mean its like only in triplicate on the paperwork,the passenger manifest,the security clearence and God knows what else including the baggage flight tag...Or does anybody bother reading this ream of paperwork??

So thats my recent experiance of flying with firearms within the EU.:)
Happy trails!
Grizzly 45

Pkiernan

Great write up - thanks for taking the time.

2 concerns:

1. Did they put a sticker on the outside of your bag saying there was a firearm in it? This would make it highly susceptible to theft in my opinion.

2. With regard to locking it, going by the US regulations, you should be putting your own (non-TSA) lock on it. Once you check it in in the US, not even the TSA can cut the lock off the container holding the firearm. They will summon you to them, ask you to open it if they need to see it.

Finally, why am I not surprised that the most hassle you would have would be from one of our own! We are a real f&cking mickey mouse country.

NASRPC: Nigel

Good write up.

NASRPC covered some of this in their newsletter last year

Issue 2010.4 &
Issue 2010.5

You can never have too much information on these matters.

Grizzly 45

[

QUOTE=Pkiernan;71791286]Great write up - thanks for taking the time.

2 concerns:

1. Did they put a sticker on the outside of your bag saying there was a firearm in it? This would make it highly susceptible to theft in my opinion.

Thanks Pkierman
Yeah they certainly did.The Aer Lingus one is a cute one with a picture of an air rifle profile.:) The German one is a big officious one in red stating clearly that it is an unloaded firearm and where it is to be loaded,and what is to be done with it to return it to the customer.Considering it is a very large case I suppose they want to be sure that everyone is in no doubts that it is actually a gun in there.:rolleyes:Theft,well I would be least worried about that in Europe,as I worked airline security here before,and the drill was there was one agent detailed to make sure that gun cases were personally escorted onto the correct flight and under direct supervision.That might have changed now,but I could belive it in the US.

2. With regard to locking it, going by the US regulations, you should be putting your own (non-TSA) lock on it. Once you check it in in the US, not even the TSA can cut the lock off the container holding the firearm. They will summon you to them, ask you to open it if they need to see it.

Err you would want to check that one...There have been enough cases[no pun intended] about this post 9/11,and tBH I cant see them paging every suspect person in LAX or O Hare to come and open their baggage.People coming back to Ireland from the US have reported this happening to them.

Finally, why am I not surprised that the most hassle you would have would be from one of our own! We are a real f&cking mickey mouse country.

Well thats a given..But it seems to be all gunowners upon leaving or returning to their home countries have the same horror stories to tell betimes.So it just seems to be a universal problem,not just Irish.

Sparks

Ouch Grizz, KLM? We had no end of fun with them on the way to Kuortane last time. Swore off ever using them again as a result.

Grizzly 45

Guess I can thank you Sparks for paving the way for me then!:D:D.
I enquired about how much excess baggage was going to be on this and was told so long as it didnt exceed 20kgs it was coverd as "unexcessive baggage"going out from Cork.Weighed in exactly at 14.5 kgs. Nurenberg got 50 euros off me as their limit was 12 kg and that was for my travel bag rather than the rifle case.:rolleyes:

Guess it's like anything in life,you pays your money and takes your chances .:)

Sparks

The lousy gits. We got exactly the opposite treatment - told we were okay in Dublin and then stung for several hundred euro mid-way to the destination while in schiopol. And they left our rifle cases going round and round unattended on the main carousel and forced us to leave the airside side of security to check them back in for some unknown reason. And when we did that, they forgot to tell Schiopol security about it so the first they learnt of firearms on the flight was the xray machine results, and we both wound up having a chat with a pair of very nice, exceedingly polite, but quite definitely well-armed security people...

It was not what I'd call a stress-free trip.

And their baggage handlers destroyed one kitbag, mangled one rifle case, damn near broke my Peli rifle case (that was actually impressive), and to top it off, shook a can of ammo upside down, by the handler's head, under a wing full of fuel vapour, about a hundred feet from the terminal.

Yeah, I'm not flying KLM (or via Schipol) ever again if I have any choice in the matter!

Sparks

Mind you - 14.5 kg is desperately light compared to us I suppose
I think my kit was coming in at about 35kg all told, and Daniels was a bit heavier...

Grizzly 45

Ouch!Ouch! Ouch!:eek: Did you have the same hassle on the return leg??
From my reading of it it sounds like you didnt have the Dutch customs pre clearence cert??Which would explain you being dragged from airside to recheck them in again,and the security faffing around with you too??

The dopey dutchman shaking the ammo can by his head under a wing tank load of fuel vapour....Hmmmm. THAT could have been intresting had things gone wrong.:D Obviously just off his Pot break!

Wouldnt blame you that you would give Schipol a severe miss in the future.:eek::D

LB6

OMG - that brings back memories of travelling to Milan back in 07.

"BE early at the airport!!Like maybe a few hours even before check in time.
Reason ...Depends on what time of the year you are flying ,and the last thing you want or groundstaff want to see is someone arriving with a major [for them] security event and needing special attention,while they have to finish off a few hundred sunshine passengers as well.Just get there early and be 1st in the que and they will sort you out quicker when the desk opens."


We were early getting to the airport in Milan, had all the paperwork filled out in triplicate, and there was only 5 of us Irish travelling with gear. However, there were ?? extra nationalities also carrying gear coming back to Ireland too.

Once we'd cleared the check-in desk, we were told to go up to the Police to clear our gear against our paperwork. Guess what, - they opened up 10 minutes before boarding.

Each piece had to be opened and inspected and then then sealed. All 20+ of us. OK plane is now delayed 30 mins. Running between security office and the loading bay for the gun cases (after spending days in hospital in Italy was not my idea of fun) :mad:

Then they had an issue with scopes not being allowed in the hold, "as they could conceal dangerous items in them" Eventually, once the cases were taken away, and some of the scopes had passed through, they decided that they didn't like my one and told me to go back to security. :eek: I was told I had to dismantle it, to prove it contained nothing inside. Lost the plot and told them -1. I wasn't going to dismantle it and 2, it wasn't going in the hold, I was carrying it. 3, that if they insisted in it going in with the baggage, then if any damage that could happen to it on the flight would mean that I would be back to them.

At this rate, the plane (full of families and screaming kids) is now sitting on the run-way for well over an hour and the poor woman trying to organise the flight is running round like a head-less chicken:o

She eventually ran me (ok I hobbled) and another across the departure lounge, out across the tarmac and up the steps. TG we were sitting in the front of the plane. Still an all, we did get boo'd and jeered.

So, no matter how much you prep, how early you are, you will NEVER be right!

Grizzly 45

ROTFLMAO!!:D:D
That most definately is Italy for you.!! Milan especially...My God they make the New Yorkers look like friendly homly gregarious people!!:eek:
Dey alla da beautifool people in Milana,so dat allows dem to be nasty to da resata da worlda! [Iow total and utter certified CNUTS!!!:(].

I have yet to do the Italian experiance with hunting or firearms transport,but have done it a few times into and out of Rome with scuba diving gear!!! They are as chaotic with that as your description of travelling with firearms..:rolleyes:Seriously ,it is like watching, and being in an old slapstick comedy silent movie down there.

Once we'd cleared the check-in desk, we were told to go up to the Police to clear our gear against our paperwork. Guess what, - they opened up 10 minutes before boarding.

Standard operating procedure for the Italian cops,customs,banks,trains,car rental,flights and everything else down there.
They all work on different time zones to each other..None of which is European continental time...
They make us Irish with our easy going ways look like Germans for punctuality and efficency!!!

I'm convinced they are all as mad as a box of frogs down there!:eek:

Miceal68

Hi folks,

The write up on travelling with a gun within the EU was very interesting thanks. I wonder if this is related to my recent trip on P&O's Troon-Larne SeaCat route?

On arrival at Troon we were stopped in the Security Shed and asked if we had any flammable liquids or gases in our car or "any sporting goods". He did not say "guns". On the way back I had bought new GAA jerseys and a hurley and some sliotars. Sure enough at Larne in the Security Shed we were asked "any flammable liquids or gases in our car or any sporting goods" I didn't want to ask what he meant by "sporting goods" in case he took that as a que to empty my car out.

Do they mean guns when they say "sporting goods" and if so why don't they just say "guns" and if they don't mean guns what do they mean? Do they think I'll go hunting for Glasgow Rangers fans with my hurley or what?

Slán,

Miceal

LB6

Yes Michael, they do mean guns (of any and all varieties including air-soft). Sporting goods also include items like cross-bows and arrows. Also anything else with pointy ends eg ski poles.

Miceal68

Hi LB6,

Many thanks for that. Answer much appreciated. I guess it is easier for the Security folks at the ports to ask about "sporting goods" rather than a big list of potentially lethal equipment.

Slán,

Míceál

LB6 wrote: »

Yes Michael, they do mean guns (of any and all varieties including air-soft). Sporting goods also include items like cross-bows and arrows. Also anything else with pointy ends eg ski poles.