Certificate of Compliance

AntiRip

Hi

I have my house built 7 years and have a mortgage for the 5 years. I have gotten a letter from my solicitor requesting a Certificate of Compliance with Planning Permission to comply with my undertaking to the bank.

I have no idea why I need this as like I said above I have had my mortgage from the bank 5 years.

Does this sound strange at all? Do I need to get my plans and that drawn up again for this?

I built the house myself and with direct labor and did not have an engineer.

Thanks

Poor Uncle Tom

I know it sounds strange, but it isn't. Your solicitor was probably looking after your paperwork with the bank and it sounds like you got your mortgage to finish off the house so it was probably released on the equity value of the house and the solicitor would have given an undertaking to the bank that there would be a Certificate of Compliance with planning permission and Building Regulations and a Declaration of Identity forwarded when all works were completed.

Now banks are becomming very particular about tidying up paperwork on older files and probably realised that your certs are still outstanding. Your solicitor would have gotten an itate call from the bank reminding him/her of his/her duties.

Anyway it was foolish not to have someone look after the construction. The outstanding paperwork is likely to cost about €700 - €1000 and it's likely to be qualified which may irk the bank.

However, this is just my opinion from your post.

Carlow52

AntiRip wrote: »

Hi

I have my house built 7 years and have a mortgage for the 5 years. I have gotten a letter from my solicitor requesting a Certificate of Compliance with Planning Permission to comply with my undertaking to the bank.

I have no idea why I need this as like I said above I have had my mortgage from the bank 5 years.

Does this sound strange at all? Do I need to get my plans and that drawn up again for this?

I built the house myself and with direct labor and did not have an engineer.

Thanks

Just to be crystal here

to comply with my undertaking to the bank

Is the my here you or the solicitor.
Normally its the lawyer who provides the undertaking so before u proceed any further clarify who undertook what to whom.
As said earlier this is a massive bank/lawyer house keeping exercise that is enveloping the land like a plague.

In passing compliance with planning is one thing, complying with Building regs is another so make sure u know what is being asked for, ask for copy of letter from bank to make sure u are not being stuffed.

AntiRip

Thanks guys. "My" is the solicitor Carlow52.

So I can't wish this away so? Paying up to e1000 is scaring me as I'm now unemployed going back to college as a mature student and cash is tight.

Poor Uncle Tom, probably was foolish not to have an engineer but at the time I was building the house from my own reserves and keeping costs down. I needed a small mortgage at the end to finish off the house.

muffler

AntiRip wrote: »

So I can't wish this away so? Paying up to e1000 is scaring me as I'm now unemployed going back to college as a mature student and cash is tight.

Shop around and you may be pleasantly surprised at one or two of the quotes

Carlow52

AntiRip wrote: »

Thanks guys. "My" is the solicitor Carlow52.

So I can't wish this away so? Paying up to e1000 is scaring me as I'm now unemployed going back to college as a mature student and cash is tight.

Poor Uncle Tom, probably was foolish not to have an engineer but at the time I was building the house from my own reserves and keeping costs down. I needed a small mortgage at the end to finish off the house.

So the solicitor gave the undertaking and not you so re-read my post.

Before you embark on anything you need to see whats required and who it needs to be provided by: eg does the bank need the work done by a professional.

As you have disabled the PM facility I cant say much more.
just bear in mind that the lack of paperwork will only become an issue for you if u want to sell to someone who needs a mortgage.

AntiRip

Carlow52 wrote: »

So the solicitor gave the undertaking and not you so re-read my post.

Before you embark on anything you need to see whats required and who it needs to be provided by: eg does the bank need the work done by a professional.

As you have disabled the PM facility I cant say much more.
just bear in mind that the lack of paperwork will only become an issue for you if u want to sell to someone who needs a mortgage.

My PM is switched on now

I will never be selling the house (honestly) as I built on my parents property so Iack of paperwork will never bother me

muffler

Carlow52 wrote: »

just bear in mind that the lack of paperwork will only become an issue for you if u want to sell to someone who needs a mortgage.

Sorry but I beg to differ. The furnishing of a Cert. of Compliance would have been one of the conditions attached to the mortgage agreement so it's needed now.

It would also be required should the OP decide to remortgage or transfer the property at a later date to a member of his family

Carlow52 wrote: »

As you have disabled the PM facility I cant say much more.

What would you want to say in a PM that cant be posted here?

AntiRip

muffler wrote: »

Sorry but I beg to differ. The furnishing of a Cert. of Compliance would have been one of the conditions attached to the mortgage agreement so it's needed now.

It would also be required should the OP decide to remortgage or transfer the property at a later date to a member of his family



What would you want to say in a PM that cant be posted here?

I just find it straight that I'm been asked for it now as I thought I wouldn't have gotten the mortgage if I didn't have all the paperwork in order back then thats all.

Appreciate your opinions guys, thanks

muffler

AntiRip wrote: »

I just find it straight that I'm been asked for it now as I thought I wouldn't have gotten the mortgage if I didn't have all the paperwork in order back then thats all.

Poor Uncle Tom covered this point above. Solicitors give an undertaking to the lenders to produce all relevant paperwork. It seems that there are some solicitors who are just a wee bit slow in this regard.

AntiRip

muffler wrote: »

Poor Uncle Tom covered this point above. Solicitors give an undertaking to the lenders to produce all relevant paperwork. It seems that there are some solicitors who are just a wee bit slow in this regard.

5 years slow :rolleyes::)

mickdw

AntiRip wrote: »

5 years slow :rolleyes::)

Appears to be that way. The solicitor should have chased you for paperwork while they still had your final mortgage payment. Much easier to get you to comply then than now.

AntiRip

mickdw wrote: »

Appears to be that way. The solicitor should have chased you for paperwork while they still had your final mortgage payment. Much easier to get you to comply then than now.

Just a quick question, but what would happen if I didn't comply. What would happen ?
Not that I'm going to do that as I would be happier to fix it up and forget about it.

mickdw

You will probably get a letter a few times a year from the solicitor until the bank gets really thick with them. Then the solicitor will hassle you til you comply.
The solicitor has given an undertaking to the bank that they will furnish the required documents. Im sure somewhere along the line you also signed something to cover the solicitors arse too so without doubt you will have to get it done sooner or later.
If everything is 100% with your property, It might not be as expensive as mentioned earlier although noone is going to comment on or certify your foundation etc at this stage.
If you have altered the build from that granted under your planning permission, you will be kinda screwed.

Mellor

OP, you only said certificate of planning in you post.
is that all that is needed?

If so its not a big deal and very easy to get somebody to sign off on this.
If they need building regs too then it gets messy as nobody can see what in underground, under slabs, behind walls.

Hopefully its the former

muffler

I had a similar case recently. A young couple built their house with a mortgage and moved in around 2002/03. They had an engineer inspecting the works and issuing the stage payment certs. They never drew down the final stage of their mortgage so there was no final payment cert nor cert of compliance issued.

As it turns out their solicitor never finalised the paperwork. They built on family land and the site was located down a lane. A few months ago their solicitor contacted me to see if I could get a couple of things sorted for them. As their engineer had retired I was asked to furnish a cert of compliance with regards both planning permission and building regulations. I issued a qualified cert and as I haven't heard any more about it I take it everything was in order and acceptable.

But before I issued the cert there were a couple of other matters to be sorted. An easement had to obtained in respect of the water supply from a well on the family farm and more importantly a Right of Way was required on the lane for the couple to gain access to their home.

All in all its taken about 8 or possibly 9 years to have this sorted.

martinn123

I have to state, that personally I would adopt a different attitude to this type of shoddy work, by the Solicitor.The interesting quote in Mufflers post above is ''the solicitor contacted me to see if I could get a couple of things sorted'' in other words the Solicitor could not comply with the Undertakings given,....9 years ago.... and he took steps to finalise the matter.Personally, ( and not to be recommended ) I would ask the Solr if his Professional Insurance was up to date, as he may have to notify the Bank that he cannot comply with HIS Undertakings, walt a week or two, and his friend, ( golf buddy ) the Architect will show up and complete the paperwork.

Poor Uncle Tom

martinn123 wrote: »

I have to state, that personally I would adopt a different attitude to this type of shoddy work, by the Solicitor.The interesting quote in Mufflers post above is ''the solicitor contacted me to see if I could get a couple of things sorted'' in other words the Solicitor could not comply with the Undertakings given,....9 years ago.... and he took steps to finalise the matter.Personally, ( and not to be recommended ) I would ask the Solr if his Professional Insurance was up to date, as he may have to notify the Bank that he cannot comply with HIS Undertakings, walt a week or two, and his friend, ( golf buddy ) the Architect will show up and complete the paperwork.

It's not as clear cut as you make it sound. Yes, there are negligent cases and I would guess quite a few, but, there are also cases where a file cannot be closed.......

muffler wrote: »

They never drew down the final stage of their mortgage so there was no final payment cert nor cert of compliance issued.

A final Certificate of Compliance with Planning Permission and Building Regulations cannot issue until works have been virtually completed.

That begs the question, how does the Solicitor/Architect/Bank know when a Job is completed? When the client tells them so. Unless there is a Clerk of Works or a Project Manager reporting back to one or all of the above there is no other way of knowing when a job is finished only when a client picks up the phone to tell them.

I presume in the above case this was never done as the final stage was never needed or drawn down.

muffler wrote: »

As their engineer had retired I was asked to furnish a cert of compliance with regards both planning permission and building regulations. I issued a qualified cert and as I haven't heard any more about it I take it everything was in order and acceptable.

All in all its taken about 8 or possibly 9 years to have this sorted.

Nothing wrong here except the lengthy duration, Ive seen one recently 12 years after the fact (for another reason).

sydthebeat

theres nothing overly strange with this case. It happens quite frequently and as PUT has said, its a case of banks tidying up thier paperwork.

The money you didnt spend then getting your build inspected will need to be spent now. The good thing for you is you will probaly get this service for about half of what it would have been in 2004. So dont think of it as a new cost, just one youve deferred.

I think if you ask around you might get a quote for somewhre in the region of €350, as there are not many certifers ourt there who can turn their nose up at a job lik ethis. As PUT has also said, the cert will be "qualified" all over the place, as in "i did not inspect the ope works" and " this is a visual certification only"... and this may irk the banks.... but id be very surprised if they make a significant issue about it.

martinn123

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It's not as clear cut as you make it sound. Yes, there are negligent cases and I would guess quite a few, but, there are also cases where a file cannot be closed.......

Well I agree its not clear cut, but where does the responsibility lie?

A final Certificate of Compliance with Planning Permission and Building Regulations cannot issue until works have been virtually completed.
That begs the question, how does the Solicitor/Architect/Bank know when a Job is completed? When the client tells them so. Unless there is a Clerk of Works or a Project Manager reporting back to one or all of the above there is no other way of knowing when a job is finished only when a client picks up the phone to tell them.

The solicitor has given the undertaking, a simple diary reminder would beg the question, is the project finished.

I presume in the above case this was never done as the final stage was never needed or drawn down.
Nothing wrong here except the lengthy duration, Ive seen one recently 12 years after the fact (for another reason).

Well if a solicitor is happy to have his undertakings outstanding for 9 years, so be it, wonder if he waited for his fee till the job was finished.

martinn123

sydthebeat wrote: »

theres nothing overly strange with this case. It happens quite frequently and as PUT has said, its a case of banks tidying up thier paperwork.

I dissagree, its the Banks chasing Solicitors who have given undertakings to complete transactions, which on review after many years are not completed.

The money you didnt spend then getting your build inspected will need to be spent now. The good thing for you is you will probaly get this service for about half of what it would have been in 2004. So dont think of it as a new cost, just one youve deferred.I think if you ask around you might get a quote for somewhre in the region of €350, as there are not many certifers ourt there who can turn their nose up at a job lik ethis. As PUT has also said, the cert will be qualified& all over the place, as in ;i did not inspect the ope works& and & this is a visual certification only... and this may irk the banks.... but id be very surprised if they make a significant issue about it.

Fair point, but the OP is still having to worry about documentation many years since the project was completed, due to the Solicitor not ensuring it was available as per his Undertakings.

Poor Uncle Tom

martinn123 wrote: »

...where does the responsibility lie?

What responsibility?
i) for carrying out the certificate? that would be the responsibility of the Architect or Engineer.
ii) for paying for the work? that would be the client's responsibility and would have to be paid for whether it is done today, was done yesterday, 6 months ago or 6 years ago.
iii) for getting the paperwork back to the bank? that would be the solicitor's responsibility, having given an undertaking. That is what s/he is trying to do, be it late in the day.
iv) for ensuring all the paperwork is completed on mortgage documentation?, that would be the responsibility of the bank, they need to keep a tighter rein on their paperwork.

martinn123 wrote: »

The solicitor has given the undertaking, a simple diary reminder would beg the question, is the project finished.

From a solicitors point of view, when do you log that diary entry? 6 days, 6 months or 6 years after the last stage release.
I know of some builds which have stretched over the lifespan of the planning permissions.

martinn123 wrote: »

Well if a solicitor is happy to have his undertakings outstanding for 9 years, so be it, wonder if he waited for his fee till the job was finished.

Some do, I'm sure.....:D

martinn123 wrote: »

the OP is still having to worry about documentation many years since the project was completed,

Some would argue that the project isn't completed until it has been signed off on.

martinn123 wrote: »

..due to the Solicitor not ensuring it was available as per his Undertakings.

As previously pointed out there are various reasons why this can happen.

martinn123

While I do not want to turn this into a thread on Conveyancing, the facts are that 15 yrs ago, Mortgagors, ( Building Socy's ) only parted with the cheque, when the clients Solr delivered to their Solr, a complete file, with all certs, searches, mortgage deed tec. Clients were forced to obtain Bridging Finance to purchase/ build the house at rates of 3-4% over the Mortgage rate, interest only. Pressure was on the Solr to complete the file to get his client off Bridging.

Following pressure from Law Socy, etc, lenders agreed to release funds against ''Undertakings'' from a solr to deliver the complete file in due course. Undertakings were accepted as Solrs. are seen as ''Officers of the Court'' and Members of an honourable profession.

The client therefore went on Mortgage, and left the details to the solr to complete.

Along came Michael Lynn, and others who saw an open goal, and gave multiple Undertakings, on the same property, causing panic among lenders.

So the responsibility lies with the Solr. to comply with his Undertaking, delays in completing the build, Engineers retiring, no final cert requested, etc.etc. all irrelevant. The lender has advanced funds against the Undertaking.

With regard to the diary reminders, I suggest every 3 months until settled,

I doubt the fees are not collected.:rolleyes:

So in my view it is the Banks tidying up the paperwork, and forcing lazy solicitors to honour their undertakings.

muffler

I posted an example of my own experiences in these situations to demonstrate to the OP that the problem he has is in no way unique. It wasn't put there as a point for analysing and debating.

So there's nothing mysterious about this situation and just to note that it was also pointed out that he would probably get the certification done a wee bit cheaper now and that of course is to be welcomed.

I see this thread being sidetracked so I'm going to lock this shortly but if anyone else wants to address or comment on the OP's query then feel free to do so.

martinn123

Apologies if you think I have side-tracked the original question.

Poor Uncle Tom

martinn123 wrote: »

While I do not want to turn this into a thread on Conveyancing, the facts are that 15 yrs ago, Mortgagors, ( Building Socy's ) only parted with the cheque, when the clients Solr delivered to their Solr, a complete file, with all certs, searches, mortgage deed tec. Clients were forced to obtain Bridging Finance to purchase/ build the house at rates of 3-4% over the Mortgage rate, interest only. Pressure was on the Solr to complete the file to get his client off Bridging.

Following pressure from Law Socy, etc, lenders agreed to release funds against ''Undertakings'' from a solr to deliver the complete file in due course. Undertakings were accepted as Solrs. are seen as ''Officers of the Court'' and Members of an honourable profession.

The client therefore went on Mortgage, and left the details to the solr to complete.

Therefore nothing illegal happening here.

martinn123 wrote: »

So in my view it is the Banks tidying up the paperwork, and forcing lazy solicitors to honour their undertakings.

As you said this is your view, and it has also been said on earlier posts.

martinn123

Sorry Muffler, but it would be rude not to reply to another Mod

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Therefore nothing illegal happening here.

I agree and hope I did not give that impression. I suppose to summarise, finally, the impressions given by those of you with an Architectural background is that this is quite normal. My question is why is this standard of work considered normal. Examples given, Cert. of Compliance with Planning / Building Regs. 5 yrs O/S. An Easement/ a Right of Way. 9/12 yrs O/S. Now don't go all defensive on me, I am critisising the Solicitors who allowed this to happen, not the architect. If an undertaking is accepted by a Bank, why not discharge it in the shortest time possible, and earn your fee. The OP expressed worry as he is now unemployed and facing an unexpected bill, that's not fair.

muffler

i dont know why I bother.

locked

Poor Uncle Tom

Sorry muffler, just say your post of 10:58 this morning now, I had to post and run myself this morning.