Future of Irish State Owned Airports

RadarControl

A REPORT TO be presented to the cabinet this week will propose a plan to sell off Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports as well as state-owned sea ports around the country.
The review group on State assets is understood to be proposing that the three airports along with sea ports at Dublin, Cork, Foynes and Waterford be sold off as part of a coalition promise to generate “up to €2 billion” through the sale of non-strategic assets, reports The Sunday Times (subscription required).
The current €750 million debt of Dublin Airport Authority (DAA), which owns Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports, would make a sell-off unlikely in the short term but the group, led by economist Colm McCarthy, believe that a debt reduction plan could allow a sell off in the medium term.
However, the proposal could put Fine Gael and Labour at odds with Labour ministers who would be expected to resist the sell off according to one prominent backbencher.
Tommy Broughan told the newspaper “people would be upset at any conceivable idea of selling the major national airports,” citing the “disastrous” privatisation of Eircom in the 1990s.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irelands-three-main-airports-could-be-sold-off-as-part-of-privatisation-plans-122444-Apr2011/

If the government does sell off the three state owned airports would there be any buyers and what are likely improvements new owners would make?

Obviously Dublin airport is the jewel in the crown but will not be attractive if it gets saddled with Cork and Shannon's debt. I think any new owner of Dublin would immediately look at extending main runway or building the second to generate the much needed extra traffic to pay the debt. Some of the likely bidders Fraport AG and Hochtief AirPort.

I think anybody looking at Shannon should buy Shannon Airport and Foynes together. The aim would be to turn the two into a giant European cargo hub with European and US Customs clearance. At Shannon airport they would build large warehouses and special cargo handling terminals like the UPS Worldport for use by all the freight companies. The only problem I can see would the need for the two to be linked by decent rail system.

Don't know enough about Cork to suggest any changes that would be made by any new owners.

Just wondering what others think?

Masala

It will NEVER happen.... not in your lifetime or in mine!!!

Too much politics.....

GoGoGadget

RadarControl wrote: »

I think anybody looking at Shannon should buy Shannon Airport and Foynes together. The aim would be to turn the two into a giant European cargo hub with European and US Customs clearance. At Shannon airport they would build large warehouses and special cargo handling terminals like the UPS Worldport for use by all the freight companies. The only problem I can see would the need for the two to be linked by decent rail system.
?

There's been talk for years about having a massive cargo hub built up from scratch in the midlands. I'll try find an article on it, really interesting read and apparently a lot of interest from Asian investors.

mayotom

5000 jobs for Knock airport

There were plans in the Early 90's to convert Knock airport into a Major Cargo Hub by Ross Perots, Alliance group similar to what he has done with Alliance-Fort Worth airport in Texas this was to create upwards of 5000 jobs but politics got in the way and Scuppered that.

GoGoGadget

Here's an article on Shannon.

http://transair-cargo.com/lynxs-and-shannon-airport-authority-to-explore-major-cargo-hub.html

This is the one for the Midlands. An interesting read!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/welcome-to-lovely-athlone-the-bustling-new-beijingonshannon-2229548.html


I've been to East Mids and the even more impressive DHL hub in Leipzig at night, it's like what you would imagine the North Pole to be like in the run up to Christmas, it's spectacular, aircraft everywhere.

Fratton Fred

GIP who own Gatwick are spending £1bn refurbishing it.

Imagine someone like that buying Dublin.

Tea 1000

Shannon is crippled by the DAA currently. And I don't believe for a second that the airports completely seperate to each other. Shannon isn't getting a chance to develop.
It'd be the best thing that could happen for it to be sold. €9.50 per day parking in Co. Clare? Seriously? I'd have it down to €2 per day and half the landing charges of Dublin in order to bring the people and the airlines in. It's a ghost town as it is. You need to be in a position where anyone on the M7 would make a choice to either drive one hour to Dublin airport and have more hassle and bigger cost, or drive 2 hours to Shannon and have a pleasant and cheaper trip.
The analogy to Eircom is null and void, that was a disaster, things like selling Eircell etc made that doomed to fail. Plus I don't think a Government should ever sell it's networks, be they telecom, electricity, rail or road. Sell the use of them and the operators on them, but not the physical network.
Airports are different.

RadarControl

Thanks for posting the articles. They make for interesting reading. Did Shannon go any further with Lynxs in development of cargo hub?

I got a report today in work that says BAA could get £1.2 billion for Stansted. If Dublin was sold on it's own surely it could achieve similar or better?

I know if would never happen but would love if somebody like Abu Dhabi Airport company would purchase DAA. Anybody see the plans for the new Midfield Terminal Complexm in Abu Dhabi? It is in shape of a X so to add extra capacity they can add extra gates on at each end. I know the airport is in middle of desert so they can keep expanding as they wish.

mayotom

RadarControl wrote: »

I know if would never happen but would love if somebody like Abu Dhabi Airport company would purchase DAA. Anybody see the plans for the new Midfield Terminal Complexm in Abu Dhabi? It is in shape of a X so to add extra capacity they can add extra gates on at each end. I know the airport is in middle of desert so they can keep expanding as they wish.

ADAC are not that foolish, DAA is a no go for any investor with sense, the company is strangled with debt and can't be reformed due to the Unions hold on the workings of the company, Having worked with the ADAC parent company in the past, I would be quiet sure that they will stay clear of DAA

As for the new Terminal at AUH, yes its amazing, the scale model is at Cityscape Abu Dhabi at the moment, it looks fantastic. But as for expansion the area around the airport is closing in, with Masdar city on the west side and the Yas Island interchange and Al Reef on the East, they have already set the limit to how big they can go, but that is an enormous area, which they probably would never really need.

donkey balls

http://news.van.fedex.com/intl/fr?node=3706

http://news.van.fedex.com/node/3710

I rememeber when the Knock cargo hub came up during the mid 90s back then and even now it was not really a runner even if they got one going in SNN we are to small as a nation to have a dedicated cargo hub here,All of the dedicated cargo operaters(Fedex UPS/DHL/TNT) here feed into bigger hubs into the UK&main land europe for onward connections.
Also the majority of air freight that leaves here goes by road into the likes of LHR&MAN for commercial connections,If you take the likes of CDG alot of airfreight would be trucked from the Benelux countries to Paris and the same with FRA.

L1011

Shall we add Weston to the state owned list now? http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0420/mansfieldj.html

On a more serious level, what is the level of residual state ownership via councils, enterprise boards, regional authorities and the like in the regional airports?

I seem to remember that quite a bit of Kerry Airport's shares are held by the state; Waterford City Council has directors on Waterford Airport's board, etc. Also seems Bord Failte own shares in WAT.

I'd suggest the state should shed these shares first, particularly to avoid having to pick up the pieces should any of the airports die in a price war caused by privatising one of the big three.

BrianD

Is Ireland really viable as an aviation cargo hub in this day and age?

Mainland Europe makes far more sense on every level. You are in the middle of Europe and cargo inbound from the US, Asia or Africa can be transferred to smaller aircraft (as could be in Ireland) but importantly it can be shipped bt road or rail to anywhere on mainland Europe.

I think Shannon as an aviation hub is a flying boat era aspiration and not a reality in todays world. The airport would probably be little more than a local airport if it weren't for government intervention over the years.

donkey balls

BrianD wrote: »

Is Ireland really viable as an aviation cargo hub in this day and age?

Mainland Europe makes far more sense on every level. You are in the middle of Europe and cargo inbound from the US, Asia or Africa can be transferred to smaller aircraft (as could be in Ireland) but importantly it can be shipped bt road or rail to anywhere on mainland Europe.

I think Shannon as an aviation hub is a flying boat era aspiration and not a reality in todays world. The airport would probably be little more than a local airport if it weren't for government intervention over the years.

Having worked for one of the big four in operations and knowing the operating costs for different aircraft trucking it by road is way cheaper not in my life time will I ever see a dedicated hub here in Ireland most airlines use the hub and spoke system designed by my aul crowd and it has been proved to work were you have the larger aircraft feed into the major hubs with smaller aircraft taking the freight to it's final destination. or by road if it,s local and won't impact on service

mayotom

BrianD wrote: »

Is Ireland really viable as an aviation cargo hub in this day and age?

Mainland Europe makes far more sense on every level. You are in the middle of Europe and cargo inbound from the US, Asia or Africa can be transferred to smaller aircraft (as could be in Ireland) but importantly it can be shipped bt road or rail to anywhere on mainland Europe.

I think Shannon as an aviation hub is a flying boat era aspiration and not a reality in todays world. The airport would probably be little more than a local airport if it weren't for government intervention over the years.

Not anymore those opportunities were handed to Ireland on a plate, but the government allowed them to go to other European countries.

Like the Alliance deal at Knock, it didn't materialise because Ross Perrot wanted to buy 51% of the airport, but politics got in the way and now the area is still a jobs black spot, and thousands of jobs have gone elsewhere. It didn't matter if this was located in the west of Ireland or central Germany as it would purely have been an aviation hub with no requirement for land based infrastructure. But then again that was also talked about in a different project which did have very high expectations

There was also the little heard of deal where Omega Aviation planned to build a facility there for aircraft maintenance and engine refurbs, but they couldn't get planning permission, so they tried shannon, FF/Aer Rianta would not agree with them so they built in Wales...

the lack of vision of our politicians is a major reason why Ireland has not developed to its potential, or maybe it was the lack of brown envelopes from the investors.

donkey balls

mayotom wrote: »

Not anymore those opportunities were handed to Ireland on a plate, but the government allowed them to go to other European countries.

Like the Alliance deal at Knock, it didn't materialise because Ross Perrot wanted to buy 51% of the airport, but politics got in the way and now the area is still a jobs black spot, and thousands of jobs have gone elsewhere. It didn't matter if this was located in the west of Ireland or central Germany as it would purely have been an aviation hub with no requirement for land based infrastructure. But then again that was also talked about in a different project which did have very high expectations

There was also the little heard of deal where Omega Aviation planned to build a facility there for aircraft maintenance and engine refurbs, but they couldn't get planning permission, so they tried shannon, FF/Aer Rianta would not agree with them so they built in Wales...

the lack of vision of our politicians is a major reason why Ireland has not developed to its potential, or maybe it was the lack of brown envelopes from the investors.

Ah now Tom no ground infrastructure just air are you for real:eek:just look at the likes of MAN/LHR/CDG/FRA they have major road networks leading into there airports, No offence but the west of Irelands roads Mayo/Sligo are crap and need to be up have an up grade even in 2011 as I have done alot of travelling on them and I mean no disrepect to people from the northwest but the majority of exports go through DUB even our crappy little airport in Dublin could not handle a major cargo hub with over 100 dedicated stands.

cson

Ireland has what, 7 International Airports and 10 if you include the North. That is insane for a country the size of ours. We should be consolidating operations into a North [Knock], South [Cork], East [Dublin] and West [Shannon] dynamic as far as I'm concerned.

donkey balls

cson wrote: »

Ireland has what, 7 International Airports and 10 if you include the North. That is insane for a country the size of ours. We should be consolidating operations into a North [Knock], South [Cork], East [Dublin] and West [Shannon] dynamic as far as I'm concerned.

7 international airports? last time I checked it was 3 DUB/SNN/and ORK to a limit regarding MTOW figures the likes of Knock Waterford etc are regional I dont think your going hear at anytime soon Speed bird heavy waterford approach.
Take the north for instance George Best airport is limited in what can take off/land there either dash 400.ATR or 737 no wide bodies can land there why do you think FR is pulling out of the airport they want to delevelop longer routes that require more fuel upload.

L1011

Taking the literal (and US) meaning of "international", its 7.

Knock and Kerry have flights to some extremely long distance routes (and Knock has even had transatlantic remember).

roundymac

MYOB wrote: »

Taking the literal (and US) meaning of "international", its 7.

Knock and Kerry have flights to some extremely long distance routes (and Knock has even had transatlantic remember).

Kerry's runway is only 133mts shorter and Knock's is 167mts longer than Cork's, so you could say we have five international airports.

L1011

roundymac wrote: »

Kerry's runway is only 133mts shorter and Knock's is 167mts longer than Cork's, so you could say we have five international airports.

Donegal and Waterford also operate scheduled flights that leave the national territory, even if they're only done using ATRs.

mayotom

donkey balls wrote: »

Ah now Tom no ground infrastructure just air are you for real:eek:just look at the likes of MAN/LHR/CDG/FRA they have major road networks leading into there airports, No offence but the west of Irelands roads Mayo/Sligo are crap and need to be up have an up grade even in 2011 as I have done alot of travelling on them and I mean no disrepect to people from the northwest but the majority of exports go through DUB even our crappy little airport in Dublin could not handle a major cargo hub with over 100 dedicated stands.

oh I agree 100% that our infrastructure is crap, however it is irrelevant to what alliance was hoping to achieve, as they were planning a hub where cargo would be flown in and flown out simple as that, they were not planning to have something like MAN/LHR/CDG/CDG which tend to cater for cargo traffic which has a starting or finishing point in each of these locations.