The All Blacks and the Law!

Tim Robbins

Right, here's an interesting youtube analysing some decisions in an All Blacks V Boks game. Probably a bit biased but interesting nonetheless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdr-W775hk4

sock puppet

Ha some pretty blatant stuff there.

wixfjord

Holy ****!
How has this never been picked up on!
They can literally do anything they want around the ruck area, and it's not picked up!
It's almost as if it's so far OTT and blatant that no ref sees it, because they think, "ah on, shur they couldn't go that far!"

cartoonninja

Richie macaw has taught them well;)

meh, that's anal to say the least.

People go off their feet at rucks all the time, people continue driving through a ruck clearing out players all the time too. The messing around at the side of rucks is a bit dodgey, but for the most part, I wouldn't argue with the decisions.

Top rated comment says that if a similar video was made analysing the SA or AUS packs, it would be a similar story, and to tell the truth, it absolutely would.

McCaw at 5mins is a cert of a penalty
5.22 is fine
5.34 is fine

6mins he actually highlights a penalty? Bizarre
7mins is a bottle job from Rollaind unfortunately.

The McCaw effect. Possibly the only talking point of the video. The rest of the breakdown is fine.

Guy:Incognito

I disagree on most of those points Emmet, Most of the video is not driving through rucks or anything like it. It's blatant running around rucks and taking up blocking positions while being way offside. Standing as a pillar on the oppositions side of the ruck is as blatant as you like and very easy to spot and punish. By0passing the ruck and tackling lads out of the way too. This isnt the NFL, you cant have half your team running interferance and blockign tacklers for you.

People going off their feet and sealing off goes on at all levels, it doesnt mean its not illegal or shouldnt be punished.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

People going off their feet and sealing off goes on at all levels, it doesnt mean its not illegal or shouldnt be punished.

yeah but it's no different than what goes on in 80% of games.
I'm not saying that they're not breaking the rules, but saying that they're the only people that do it is nonsense.

The only truely contentious issue on the video is not binning McCaw (3 times!)

Judgement Day

This thread should be re-titled "Getting the excuses in early" - the All Blacks will win the RWC and cheating won't be the reason.

Judgement Day

Judgement Day wrote: »

This thread should be re-titled "Getting the excuses in early" - the All Blacks should win the RWC and cheating won't be the only reason.

fyp

Guy:Incognito

Deleted User wrote: »

yeah but it's no different than what goes on in 80% of games.
I'm not saying that they're not breaking the rules, but saying that they're the only people that do it is nonsense.

The only truely contentious issue on the video is not binning McCaw (3 times!)

There are a couple of players whos only job seems to be standing on the wrong side of the rucks blocking and sometimes wrestling with opposition players. Althewhile the ref (Rolland in this case) stands there not batting an eyelid.

again agreed, but I've no doubt whatsoever that I could pick any professional side, watch one match, and find more than 2/3 incidents of the above.

Sundy

Ive said it before and il say it again Rolland is a crap ref because he ignores offside. Ive seen him ref AIL games with a similar attitude to that.

Judgement Day

Ah yes - Alain Rolland - forever remembered, along with the TMO, for denying (us) at the 2007 RWC Final. It was a try....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OVuDMYSJ7M

tolosenc

What was the fouls to yellow cards ratio in the Tri-Nations last year?

duckysauce

Judgement Day wrote: »

This thread should be re-titled "Getting the excuses in early" - the All Blacks will win the RWC and cheating won't be the reason.

Choking will be the reason

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10676933

sock puppet

tolosenc wrote: »

What was the fouls to yellow cards ratio in the Tri-Nations last year?

Australia and South Africa received a few for fould play iirc whereas New Zealand only had one? Can't remember too many for repeated infringements.

Shelflife

I have to admit that its an area of the game that i find very frustrating when watching, how the attcking team can enter a ruck from in front of the ball and kill off the opposition counter ruck.

all teams are at it but they are not as cute as the ABs . I think rolland has gone down a bit over the last few years.

swan82

You have to feel for the refs.They are reffing the standard bearers of the game and are under such pressure when nz play.The thing with the ab's is they always play positive running rugby and this influences the refs decision whether subconsciously or not.

Add to the fact they are better than anyone else at cheating,makes the ref's life a nightmare.

Look at the apology they got for the reffing of the scrums when they played Italy,they carry an intimidation factor for the refs.

In saying that you could make such a highlight reel for any match for both sides.

JustinDee

Judgement Day wrote: »

This thread should be re-titled "Getting the excuses in early" - the All Blacks will win the RWC and cheating won't be the reason.

Once the play-off stage of the RWC is reached, the margin between teams tends to be no more than psychological, particularly at semi-final stage. Anything can happen in a play-off which is why Noo Zulland have fluffed the last five out of six RWC tournaments.
Pressure at home will be HUGE. Don't be too sure of your prediction, fella.
Already their union chief is whining to the press.

Tim Robbins

Shelflife wrote: »

I have to admit that its an area of the game that i find very frustrating when watching, how the attcking team can enter a ruck from in front of the ball and kill off the opposition counter ruck.

all teams are at it but they are not as cute as the ABs . I think rolland has gone down a bit over the last few years.

It happens so quickly it's difficult to see sometimes.

It's the exact same at J4

twinytwo

swan82 wrote: »

You have to feel for the refs.They are reffing the standard bearers of the game and are under such pressure when nz play.The thing with the ab's is they always play positive running rugby and this influences the refs decision whether subconsciously or not.

Add to the fact they are better than anyone else at cheating,makes the ref's life a nightmare.

Look at the apology they got for the reffing of the scrums when they played Italy,they carry an intimidation factor for the refs.

In saying that you could make such a highlight reel for any match for both sides.

You mean the game where the ref wouldnt give the peno try to italy?

The problem is not richie but the fact the refs wont touch him. He wouldnt be so quick to do what he does if they would bin his sneaky ass.

tolosenc

I particularly remember it happening right in front of me in the Aviva, that NZ killed the ball 2m out from the line. Ref blows up, walks over hand in pocket, sees it was McCaw that was the guilty party, and removes hand from pocket.

Downtime

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It happens so quickly it's difficult to see sometimes.

It's the exact same at J4

Spot on (except the J4 piece). it is easy to analyse the game at a quarter of the speed at which it happened. The speed at which it is played is ridiculous, even watching it on TV doesn't show it.

Guy:Incognito

Downtime wrote: »

Spot on (except the J4 piece). it is easy to analyse the game at a quarter of the speed at which it happened. The speed at which it is played is ridiculous, even watching it on TV doesn't show it.

The NZ players are standing on the wrong side of the ruck and sometimes wrestling opposition players , for the duration of the ruck. We are not talking blink and you miss it stuff. 4 players flopping in to rucks and sealing it off is basic stuff too.

Tim Robbins

Downtime wrote: »

Spot on (except the J4 piece).

Sorry I meant to say J5

d'Oracle

Sundy wrote: »

Ive said it before and il say it again Rolland is a crap ref because he ignores offside. Ive seen him ref AIL games with a similar attitude to that.

I disagree.

Downtime

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The NZ players are standing on the wrong side of the ruck and sometimes wrestling opposition players , for the duration of the ruck. We are not talking blink and you miss it stuff. 4 players flopping in to rucks and sealing it off is basic stuff too.

I don't disagree with you on some of it but would disagree with some of the one sided commentary on the video. Examples -- in my opinion. On the first one you could say McCaw was moving the tackler and Reid was assisting. The lock is not interfering. The second one it is debatable whether there is a ruck when the 3 and 2 arrive and they then move around. On the third one there is no mention of the interference from Green 2. On the fourth one there is a lot of guys off their feet.

handsomecake

1. this video was compiled by a south african /aus poster on planet rugby on the day after the match in question.he was rightly pilloried by all and sundry( irish posters included).
2. someone made up a "counter video" of all the springbok indiscretions from the same game,once agin met with much hilarity on the forum.
3. the springboks ones were even more frequent and even more glaring.
4.all the gripes in the video were legitimate and should have been pinged.i dont contest any of them.
5.every team in world rugby is guilty of these things if you boil it down to the minutae of the law.
6.as i have said recently and many times.the world cup will be decided by a ref.
7.the rugby at the world cup will be different to the rugby we are seeing now.stakes are higher,people kick everything.
8.best team prob wont win it.
9. i wouldnt back the all blacks.
10.every body always picks holes in the dominant forces modus operandi,michael schumacher had his detractors,man utd always get all the decisions and have refs in their pocket,lance armstrong was a cheat,mourinho always has to play barcelona with ten men etc etc



haters gonna hate.

daveharnett

sock puppet wrote: »

Ha some pretty blatant stuff there.

wixfjord wrote: »

Holy ****!
How has this never been picked up on!

I would suggest that this is not because of some grand conspiracy, or because of an inadequate ref (I'd rate Rolland as the best in the international panel today).


Referees have three priorities
1. Safety
2. Enjoyment
3. Law

Referees tried to reset their standards at the breakdown when the ELVs were introduced. That, rather than the changes themselves turned the sport into a brutal spectacle, where teams wanted nothing to do with the ball for fear of being penalized into oblivion.

The fact is that a 100% legal ruck is vanishingly rare, and to make the sport playable (and watchable), refs need to limit themselves to the most egregious offenses in this area. If Rolland had penalized every offense he saw in that match, there would have been 20+ penalties and 3-5 cards on either side, it would have gone down as the worst 3N game in a decade, and his next fixture would have involved the Terenure U13s.

d'Oracle

handsomecake wrote: »

1. this video was compiled by a south african /aus poster on planet rugby on the day after the match in question.he was rightly pilloried by all and sundry( irish posters included).

Just on this.
Is that a south african/Aus poster who just happens to have a NZ accent or was he putting it on for effect?

handsomecake

d'Oracle wrote: »

Just on this.
Is that a south african/Aus poster who just happens to have a NZ accent or was he putting it on for effect?

i must try and dig up the thread and link it. i cant remember whether he was an expat or what but he was a well known anti allblack poster and he was a wind up merchant any way.sometimes its hard on that site to know who is who or who is trolling but it was taken as a thinly veiled trolling thread. if i had the inclination i could get the leinster leicester match and edit it so i showed some infringements one after the other,throw in some voice over from yours truly laced with hyperbole and make leinster out to be the most illegal team to have graced a field

Tim Robbins

Right watched them again. Actually think yer man is been very hard on Rolland who I think was overall pretty impressive.

Overall he has 14 clips. With the benefit of the replay, I can only see one that he should have pinged. He also should have produced a card - everything else is understandable.

Offense 1
Donelly offside, extremely easy to miss, materiality questionable.
The player going in off his feet is probably a bit easier to spot.
Rolland is scanning when all this happened. Understandably missed it.

Offense 2
Number 2 black offside or is he is just collinding into green 2 who is running back?
Materiality questionable.

Offense 3

I think he's clutching at straws here. Who is black 3 preventing counter rucking?


Offense 4
Rolland is looking at the ruck and Black 3 is out of the field of view.
But this is silly stuff, it's not really preventing a bok from actively playing.
IT's more off the ball. I am not sure if this warrants penalty but definetly a very lout
"leave him black 3".

Offense 5
This is complete whinging. Smith rucks - he doesn't tackle anyone. a bok player pulls him
and he goes forward a good bit. Not his problem. Rolland's positioning for the try
is superb.

Offense 6
Bok 17 and Black 3 are in the field of view when McCaw is pushing players illegally.
Then he falls back.

Offense 7
Part 3, yeah mcCaw doesn't come in through the gate and someone else goes in off their feet.

Offense 8
Rolland's positioning here is superb. He can see the ball. The cameras can't.
I can't see enough to call it.

Offense 9
Black 3 falls but difficult for Rolland to tell whether
he was accidental or deliberate. Camera has a better view. Rolland is looking at his back.

Offense 10
Rolland pings the blacks for not rolling away, look like he came in from the wrong side to me.

Offense 11
McCaw pinged. No complaints

Offense 12
McCaw pinged again. Probably should have been a card.

Offense 13
McCaw Pinged again. Rolland's positioing brilliant. It's easier for him to see the offense than the tv camera.
Not sure why he was not carded.

Offense 14
All Black pinged again.

In Summary

1, 4, 6, 9 understandably missed.
2, 3, 5 not pingable offsense. Better to just warn or shout at players Captain.

7 - penalty
8 - Can't call
10, 11, 12, 13, 14 correctly called. Not sure why there was no card.

I still rate Rolland as one the best in the world.

Fair play Tim, pretty sure I said all that in my first post, although you smoothed it out and clarified a lot.

Questioning every decision pedantically and "demanding satisfaction" and asking that every player played exactly to the letter of the law would do the game a huge disservice.

Consider the ball in a ruck that won't come out until the back rower picks it up and places it between his legs for the scrum half. Happens in every game. Do you penalise the defending team for killing the ball with legs/ bodyparts preventing the ball from being ruckable? Do you penalise the offense for hands in the ruck? Both of these are legitimate approaches if you were to ref the game anally enough.

But the "correct" decision there is to play on!

Tim Robbins

I think the lesson here is to play the whistle. A player may spot something that a ref has deemed to not be material. A player may spot something that a ref will miss but it's not that important anyway.

Are you listening scrum halfs ?

If the ref is cr*p, the assessor will make mince meat of him.

I think you'd be hard pushed to find any sport (in Leinster anyway ) where refs / assessors put as much into their game and standards than rugby.

twinytwo

handsomecake wrote: »

1. this video was compiled by a south african /aus poster on planet rugby on the day after the match in question.he was rightly pilloried by all and sundry( irish posters included).
2. someone made up a "counter video" of all the springbok indiscretions from the same game,once agin met with much hilarity on the forum.
3. the springboks ones were even more frequent and even more glaring.
4.all the gripes in the video were legitimate and should have been pinged.i dont contest any of them.
5.every team in world rugby is guilty of these things if you boil it down to the minutae of the law.
6.as i have said recently and many times.the world cup will be decided by a ref.
7.the rugby at the world cup will be different to the rugby we are seeing now.stakes are higher,people kick everything.
8.best team prob wont win it.
9. i wouldnt back the all blacks.
10.every body always picks holes in the dominant forces modus operandi,michael schumacher had his detractors,man utd always get all the decisions and have refs in their pocket,lance armstrong was a cheat,mourinho always has to play barcelona with ten men etc etc



haters gonna hate.

getting the excuses in already i see

TheCaveman

Hey all, please, I do not want to stir up this tread, just would love to see the comments if that video was NZ vs Ireland, and Ireland lost by 5....

jolley123

TheCaveman wrote: »

Hey all, please, I do not want to stir up this tread, just would love to see the comments if that video was NZ vs Ireland, and Ireland lost by 5....

I probably would be raging:pac:
But that's just natural. You're going to be biased towards your team, because they're your team.

I'd be thinking "filthy cheating All Blacks", and then, after being on this forum for about half an hour, I would have calmed down and come to a more rational conclusion.

Then it's a case of forget it and move on.

handsomecake

twinytwo wrote: »

getting the excuses in already i see

i actually have said it twice or three times before,once over a year ago.so yeah i got them in really early.i dont think im too far wrong though.

i think they deserve to win it.
i think they are clearly the form team.
but i wouldnt back them at restrictive odds when refs are getting it so wrong lately penalising dominant scrums ,making a mess of the breakdown etc

also people raise their games when they are in town. no team that has knocked them out of a world cup has gone on to win it. bar the final in 1995 if you want to engage in semantics

twinytwo

handsomecake wrote: »

i actually have said it twice or three times before,once over a year ago.so yeah i got them in really early.i dont think im too far wrong though.

i think they deserve to win it.
i think they are clearly the form team.
but i wouldnt back them at restrictive odds when refs are getting it so wrong lately penalising dominant scrums ,making a mess of the breakdown etc

also people raise their games when they are in town. no team that has knocked them out of a world cup has gone on to win it. bar the final in 1995 if you want to engage in semantics

As opposed to not refing the abs with the same stick as everyone else??

Do they deserve to win the WC ..yes
Are they the form team.. yes

If they want it bad enough other teams raising their game shouldnt even matter.

twinytwo

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Right watched them again. Actually think yer man is been very hard on Rolland who I think was overall pretty impressive.

Overall he has 14 clips. With the benefit of the replay, I can only see one that he should have pinged. He also should have produced a card - everything else is understandable.

Offense 1
Donelly offside, extremely easy to miss, materiality questionable.
The player going in off his feet is probably a bit easier to spot.
Rolland is scanning when all this happened. Understandably missed it.

Offense 2
Number 2 black offside or is he is just collinding into green 2 who is running back?
Materiality questionable.

Offense 3

I think he's clutching at straws here. Who is black 3 preventing counter rucking?


Offense 4
Rolland is looking at the ruck and Black 3 is out of the field of view.
But this is silly stuff, it's not really preventing a bok from actively playing.
IT's more off the ball. I am not sure if this warrants penalty but definetly a very lout
"leave him black 3".

Offense 5
This is complete whinging. Smith rucks - he doesn't tackle anyone. a bok player pulls him
and he goes forward a good bit. Not his problem. Rolland's positioning for the try
is superb.

Offense 6
Bok 17 and Black 3 are in the field of view when McCaw is pushing players illegally.
Then he falls back.

Offense 7
Part 3, yeah mcCaw doesn't come in through the gate and someone else goes in off their feet.

Offense 8
Rolland's positioning here is superb. He can see the ball. The cameras can't.
I can't see enough to call it.

Offense 9
Black 3 falls but difficult for Rolland to tell whether
he was accidental or deliberate. Camera has a better view. Rolland is looking at his back.

Offense 10
Rolland pings the blacks for not rolling away, look like he came in from the wrong side to me.

Offense 11
McCaw pinged. No complaints

Offense 12
McCaw pinged again. Probably should have been a card.

Offense 13
McCaw Pinged again. Rolland's positioing brilliant. It's easier for him to see the offense than the tv camera.
Not sure why he was not carded.

Offense 14
All Black pinged again.

In Summary

1, 4, 6, 9 understandably missed.
2, 3, 5 not pingable offsense. Better to just warn or shout at players Captain.

7 - penalty
8 - Can't call
10, 11, 12, 13, 14 correctly called. Not sure why there was no card.

I still rate Rolland as one the best in the world.

Because he is the captain of the ABS binning him would look bad. They turn a blind eye, they have to. There is no other way he could play the way he does for 90+ caps and only ever have been carded once.

Morf

twinytwo wrote: »

Because he is the captain of the ABS binning him would look bad. They turn a blind eye, they have to. There is no other way he could play the way he does for 90+ caps and only ever have been carded once.

And the ref that did yellow card him has been black-listed since . . .

sock puppet

You're starting to sound like South Africans.

Judgement Day

Could you not all wait until after the event to be sore losers?

Morf

sock puppet wrote: »

You're starting to sound like South Africans.

Can i still pronounce all my vowels incorrectly?