Dublin Bus stages

Victor

What is the distance between Dublin Bus stages?

I realise that there are some exceptions and oddities and that sometimes things are complicated when stops are moved, e.g. the double stop inbound on Aungier Street may have orignally been one on Richmond Hill and one on Aungier Street.

What I'm looking for is 1 stage = X metres or somesuch.

CIE

Victor wrote: »

What is the distance between Dublin Bus stages?

I realise that there are some exceptions and oddities and that sometimes things are complicated when stops are moved, e.g. the double stop inbound on Aungier Street may have orignally been one on Richmond Hill and one on Aungier Street.

What I'm looking for is 1 stage = X metres or somesuch.

Looks to me like there's about a 1-km (1000 m) average distance between stages nowadays. Looking at my old home bus route (66), that's the distance between the Westmoreland Street stage and the Merchant's Quay stage. The distances are still an average of 1 km apart further out (e.g. Kylemore Road to Kennelsfort Road).

markpb

Here's my estimate of the breakdown of the first 11 stages of the 41 outbound. Two of them aren't entirely clear but even ignoring those, the length of the stages seems to be slightly unpredictable, ranging from 350m to almost 1km. Sometimes they seem to be aligned with major roads (Griffith, Collins, etc).

75 25 Lwr. Abbey St.
76 24 Mountjoy Sq. / Dorset St. (North Fredrick St.) 900m
77 23 Dorset St. (North Circular Rd.) 430m
78 22 Drumcondra Rail Station 417m
79 21 Drumcondra Rd. Upr. (Clonturk Park) 806m
80 20 Swords Rd. (Griffith Ave.) 729m
81 19 Swords Rd. (Collins Ave.) 841m
82 18 Swords Rd. (Shanowen Rd.) 967m
83 17 Swords Rd. (Lorcan Rd.) 345m
84 16 Swords Rd. (Santry Ave.) 509m
85 15 Swords Rd. (Santry Stadium) 421m
86 14 Swords Rd. (Turnapin Lane) 836m

And here are most of the outbound stages on the 27b, again generally between 500m and 800m.

75 25 Eden Quay
76 24 Connolly Station 517m
77 23 Newcomen Bridge 783m
78 22 Annesley Bridge Rd. 550m
79 21 Fairview (St. Joseph's School) 558m
80 20 Malahide Rd. (Griffith Ave.) 756m
81 19 Malahide Rd. (Donnycarney) 949m
82 18 Malahide Rd. (Killester Park) 510m
83 17 St. Brigid's Rd. (Roundabout) 728m
84 16 Ardlea Rd. (?) 844m
85 15 Kilbarron Rd. (Cromcastle Drive) 780m
86 14 Kilbarron Rd. ??
87 13 Castletimon (Ballyshannon Ave.) 1.3k
88 12 Swords Rd. (Santry Stadium) 2.4k
89 11 Swords Rd. (Turnapin Lane) 830m
90 10 Cloghran Service Station
91 09 Corner Collinstown Rd.
92 08 Harristown (Bus Garage)

The 2.4k from 87 to 88 is actually correct - the route is windy but it's quite short as the crow flies. Does anyone know where stage 91 is? Google maps says that Collinstown Road is near Neilstown.

LXFlyer

Collinstown Road is where the 27b turns left off the Old Swords Road to skirt the southern boundary of Dublin Airport. The name derives from the old southern boundary road, much of which is now within the secure area at the airport.

LXFlyer

Victor wrote: »

What is the distance between Dublin Bus stages?

I realise that there are some exceptions and oddities and that sometimes things are complicated when stops are moved, e.g. the double stop inbound on Aungier Street may have orignally been one on Richmond Hill and one on Aungier Street.

What I'm looking for is 1 stage = X metres or somesuch.

There is no set distance between the stages Victor - how they were arrived at originally over 50-60 years ago I don't know. In general, they are every second or third stop, but that can vary where stops have moved or been withdrawn. All I do know is that they are more or less the same distance on parallel corridors, e.g. Stage 30 on the Templeogue QBC will be pretty much the same distance as stage 30 on the Rathfarnham QBC from the city centre.

CIE

The mystery I was looking to solve was why outbound stages starting in the city centre were numbered 75 northbound and northeast-bound, and 25 northwest-bound (except route 40D), westbound and southbound. Stages numbered 00, 00 seem to be just adjacent to the border of the outer suburban zone, but on the north side. (Is €3.60 from the city centre to Balbriggan a bargain or a ripoff? How about €4.50 from Belfield to Kilcoole...?)

AlekSmart

78 22 Drumcondra Rail Station 417m

Ah well done markpb,but yet the ambiguity remains,which Stop is Stage 22.......Is it the Clonliffe Road one or is it the Fitzroy Avenue one ?

Now it`s a VERY important point because it can mean a substantial 45c per journey difference to a customer.

Note ye well that Stage 78 is easy-peasy cos it`s directly outside the Station Door.

CIE wrote: »

. (Is €3.60 from the city centre to Balbriggan a bargain or a ripoff? How about €4.50 from Belfield to Kilcoole...?)

Ah come on CIE,neither of these fares represents a Kings Ransom and are also easily avoided by the use of a Travel90.

Again and again I have to point out to folks that,should they wish to apply themselves to a bit of preparation,they could make both of those journeys for €1.85 using a Travel 90.
84X from Kilcoole to Án Lar then a 33 to Ballybriggan...it`s a steal alright !

markpb

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ah well done markpb,but yet the ambiguity remains,which Stop is Stage 22.......Is it the Clonliffe Road one or is it the Fitzroy Avenue one ?

A lot of the stage names are very ambiguous, like these from the 27b:

84 16 Ardlea Rd.
86 14 Kilbarron Rd.

or these from the 13/A:

85 15 Ballymun Rd. (Ballymun road is 3.2k long)
84 16 Poppintree (is this an area, road, street?)

It's worth noting that the 13/A timetable has this note at the bottom:

For passengers travelling between Sillogue Road (Shopping Centre) and O'Connell Street, a fare of €1.65 applies.

For passengers travelling between O'Connell Street and Sillogue Road (Shopping Centre) a fare of €1.65 applies.

Is that meant to be informational or is it because it differs from the normal stage fare calculation?

LXFlyer

It is because it differs from the normal stage calculation.

There are a number of local exceptions such as this, which mean that for example journeys from Ballymun Shopping Centre to the city centre are kept to a reduced fare of EUR 1.65 (as applied on routes 36/a/b), all journeys within the Tallaght area are charged at EUR 1.20, as are journeys in the Liberties area.


Route 13/a:
City Centre - Ballymun Shopping Centre: Charged as 7 stages when it is 8

Routes 50, 56a, 77, 77a, 150
Kevin Street Upper-Dolphin's Barn: Charged as 3 stages when it is 4

Route 50:
Greenhills Road (Cuckoo's Nest)-Killinarden: Charged as 3 stages when it is 6

Route 56/a:
Ballymount Road(Kingswood Heights)-The Square: Charged as 3 stages when it is 8

Route 65/65b:
Castle Park (Balrothery)-Raheen: Charged as 3 stages when it is 4

Route 77:
Greenhills Road (Cuckoo's Nest)-Jobstown: Charged as 3 stages when it is 5

Route 77a:
Greenhills Road (Cuckoo's Nest)-Tallaght: Charged as 3 stages when it is 6

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

A lot of the stage names are very ambiguous, like these from the 27b:

84 16 Ardlea Rd.
86 14 Kilbarron Rd.

or these from the 13/A:

85 15 Ballymun Rd. (Ballymun road is 3.2k long)
84 16 Poppintree (is this an area, road, street?)

Something has got lost in translation on the 27b when migrating to the website as my current timetable book shows those stages as:

27b:
84 16 Ardlea Rd. (Ardlea Inn)
86 14 Kilbarron Rd. (Dundaniel Road)/Northside Shopping Centre

Regarding the 13/a, the stage in Poppintree is at the old terminus, while there is only one stop north of where the 13/a comes out of the Poppintree loop on the Ballymun Road - I agree though that both could be better described.

Hopefully with the development of the database of stop numbers this can be addressed.

KD345

markpb wrote: »

A lot of the stage names are very ambiguous, like these from the 27b:

84 16 Ardlea Rd.
86 14 Kilbarron Rd.

or these from the 13/A:

85 15 Ballymun Rd. (Ballymun road is 3.2k long)
84 16 Poppintree (is this an area, road, street?)

It's worth noting that the 13/A timetable has this note at the bottom:



Is that meant to be informational or is it because it differs from the normal stage fare calculation?

Poppintree is a large estate in Ballymun.

There are a number of routes which have these exceptions. If I'm correct, because route 13 and 13a do loops of Shangan and Sillogue, it makes it a bit difficult to put the stage point in earlier, so it doesn't appear until the shopping centre.

You will also see odd exceptions on routes 50, 56a, 77, 77a, 150 between Kevin Street and Dolphins Barn, and again at Cuckoos Nest to the rest of Tallaght. It's similar on the 65 and 65b between Castle Park and Raheen.

EDIT: Lxflyer has described it in greater detail just before I hit submit

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

Hopefully with the development of the database of stop numbers this can be addressed.

I had hoped for this also Lxflyer.

However,sadly it seems that no such interfacing is occuring.

I would have liked to see the Drivers AVL screen,which carries the next-stop information on it also indicate when that stop was a Stage.

Instead the entire area of a Stage based fare regeime wobbles uncertainly onward.

This continually throws up totally unnecesary and contentious issues such as the City Centre Fare,which on my route in theory covers the stretch between St Stephens Green and Parnell Sq West.

Now the CCF documentation also states between Stages 24,25,26. and 74,75,76.....simple yes....?

Well sadly for DB nobody realized that the St Stephens Green stop was between stages 23 + 24.(Dawson St)

This resulted in Drivers on effected routes being unable to issue a CC Fare from Stephens Green until a belated modification to the Ticket machine allowed for a CC Fare to be issued at Stage 23.

That does not mean that the CC Fare zone has been extended to Leeson St as many people now believe.

Added to this is the bizzarre placement of "End of City Centre Fare Zone" plates on the Bus Shelter at Synott Place,Dorset St ( effectively stage 77) which now allows a great many savvy customers to legitimately pay 50c for a journey previously costing €1.65.

I rather suspect that few commercial entities can sustain such a level of discounting (c70%) for very long.

However this continual need to complicate essentially simple matters is a national trait as far as I can see,something which could be addressed overnight by REfitting the Stage Markings to the BusStops concerned...for ALL to see !!

Victor

lxflyer wrote: »

Route 56/a:
Ballymount Road(Kingswood Heights)-The Square: Charged as 3 stages when it is 8

Thats outrageous!!! - until I remembered what route the 56/a takes between those points. I used it once from Tallaght and by the time we got to the city centre, my friend was convinced we had been on the Northside at some stage.

Note that Ballymount Road (Belgard / Kingswood) used to connect to Lower Ballymount Road (Greenhillls / Walkinstown) and that Cookstown Road (Jobstown-Belgard) has also been much abused.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,709113,730157,6,9
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,707321,727303,7,3

Not as extreme, inbound passengers on the 10 weren't charged extra for the Baggot Street detour that 46a passengers didn't need to do. I presume the 10 originally operated inbound via Merrion Row, not Pembroke Street.

www.mkmap.com/dublin

schemingbohemia

AlekSmart wrote: »

That does not mean that the CC Fare zone has been extended to Leeson St as many people now believe.

Added to this is the bizzarre placement of "End of City Centre Fare Zone" plates on the Bus Shelter at Synott Place,Dorset St ( effectively stage 77) which now allows a great many savvy customers to legitimately pay 50c for a journey previously costing €1.65.

Yet there is an End of City Centre Fare Zone on Adelaide Road? Which is further than Leeson Street? How bizarre!!

LXFlyer

Victor wrote: »

Not as extreme, inbound passengers on the 10 weren't charged extra for the Baggot Street detour that 46a passengers didn't need to do. I presume the 10 originally operated inbound via Merrion Row, not Pembroke Street.

Correct as the 10 needed to have the same number of stages in both directions. It would also need to reach the same stage numbering as the 46a from Waterloo Road outward to Donnybrook in both directions.

Remember that this all goes back to 1968 when the staged fare system (as currently operated) was introduced and to even earlier (perhaps back to the trams) when the stages were originally determined.

Heart

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Yet there is an End of City Centre Fare Zone on Adelaide Road? Which is further than Leeson Street? How bizarre!!

I thought the idea behind the 'End of Zone' sign are that people who board paying the 50c can only travel that far... In other words, if you board a 16 on O'Connell Street northbound and pay 50c City Centre Fare you can travel as far as Dorset Street (before Gardiner St.) where the zone ends...

Not sure if I'm right, just how I understood it to be!

H

the groutch

imo the whole system needs to be overhauled, with reduction in the number of stops in some places (some have less than 100m between them ffs), increase the number in one or two spots, and then charge all fares based on the number of stops, rather than these archaic "stages".

dynamick

what about
(regardless of journey length)
€3 cash fare
€1.50 with card

would that work? It might persuade people to use cards.

the groutch

maybe something like

Cash Fares:

up to 5 stops €1.50
6-10 stops €2
11-20 stops €2.50
21+ stops €3

and 50c less for using a prepaid card, even that would be enough of an incentive to prepay imo

starviewadams

Got the 65 from the square in Tallaght up to Blessington Village on Saturday and the driver said it was €1.65

On the return journey on Sunday morning another driver said it was €2.30!I dont think half the drivers understand the fare stages these days never mind us passengers!

AlekSmart

starviewadams wrote: »

Got the 65 from the square in Tallaght up to Blessington Village on Saturday and the driver said it was €1.65

On the return journey on Sunday morning another driver said it was €2.30!I dont think half the drivers understand the fare stages these days never mind us passengers!

You are absolutely correct in that assumption,and it's totally avoidable by the VERY simple expedient of putting the Stage Numbers back on the relevant Bus Stops !!

bk

This thread proves that the current system is far too complicated and is just broken.

The solution is as dynamick said, a single fare for any distance with reduced price for use of smart card, something like [1]:

Cash: €4
Card: €1.60

with the additional benefit of the smart card ticket being a travel 90.

Much easier for everyone and would heavily promote smart cards and have the benefit that people only need to tag on on entering the bus and not also have to tag off or talk to the driver when tagging on as they would have to do under the current stage fare system, which would lead to shorter load times.

[1] Just a guess by me, obviously it needs to be revenue neutral, but I don't think the card can be much more then €1.65 as these make up the majority of fares.

Aard

bk wrote: »

... a single fare for any distance with reduced price for use of smart card, something like [1]:

Cash: €4
Card: €1.60

...

[1] Just a guess by me, obviously it needs to be revenue neutral, but I don't think the card can be much more then €1.65 as these make up the majority of fares.

Depending on whether far-flung routes are included (like to Balbriggan), I imagine, like you say, that a flat prepaid fare would come in below €1.65. If you take a look at other smartcard systems, the prepaid fare is often much lower than one would expect from the cash fares. I guess it manages to stay revenue neutral through a combination of:

• higher income from inflated cash fares;
• reduced dwell time, allowing more efficient service;
• less administration related to "analogue" cash ticketing.

LXFlyer

starviewadams wrote: »

Got the 65 from the square in Tallaght up to Blessington Village on Saturday and the driver said it was €1.65

On the return journey on Sunday morning another driver said it was €2.30!I dont think half the drivers understand the fare stages these days never mind us passengers!

€2.30 is definitely the correct fare.

How he could ever think it was €1.65 is beyond me, stage markings or no stage markings. That is someone who clearly was not bothered.

Victor

Based on this, I imagine there had been some structure, but not an exactness.

Victor wrote:

Hi

What is the distance between Dublin Bus stages?

I realise that there are some exceptions and oddities and that sometimes things are complicated when stops are moved, e.g. the double stop inbound on Aungier Street may have orignally been one on Richmond Hill and one on Aungier Street.

What I'm looking for is 1 stage = X metres or somesuch.

Thank you

Victor

Dublin Bus wrote:

Case Reference 18019

Dear Victor,

I refer to your query on the structure of Stage points.

The stage points were originally key loading points within the old Dublin Tram Network. Over the years trams became obsolete and buses became the mane stay of transport in Dublin, As the community grew more bus stops were put in place between these stages however the key loading stage points remained.

So to answer your question, The key stage points cannot be measured in distance as they vary per route, But they are key loading points for the community.

Dublin Bus always welcomes feedback and queries such as these from the public and I have logged this query in our Customer Comment Database which is reviewed on a regular basis. If you require any further information please contact us.


Kind regards,

_______________

Peter Kennedy,

Customer Comment Desk
Dublin Bus

L1011

The stages being "key loading points for the community" and dating back to the mists of time would explain why there's a stage in Maynooth called "O'Briens Supermarket"...

jledru

Hi,

is there a map with the bus stages ?

Thanks

AlekSmart

jledru wrote: »

Hi,

Is there a map with the bus stages ?

Thanks

No there is not.

Curently there is no means,other than significant local familiarity,to physically identify a Fare Stage location.

jledru

ok !! thanks

AlekSmart wrote: »

No there is not.

Curently there is no means,other than significant local familiarity,to physically identify a Fare Stage location.

KD345

jledru wrote: »

Hi,

is there a map with the bus stages ?

Thanks

There is no specific map with stages, but each timetable online has a list of fare stages and a route map. Between the two you could calculate your fare. It's not ideal or very user friendly, but it should help you.

If you're still stuck, post your journey on this thread. There are plenty of people here familiar with the fare stage system who can help.