Luas Fine - Legitimate Appeals

LolaScarlett

Hi there,


I know there have been previous Luas threads in the past however on browsing, I do not seem to have come across one similar to mine and was wondering if anybody could give advise on my circumstance and legal rights?

I purchase my ticket on a weekly basis and one particular weekend I had changed wallets/handbags and transferred my ticket over.
When Monday came around, I had forgotten to transfer my ticket back to the weekday bag. Lo and behold - an inspector came around and issued me a Standard Fare Notice.

He advised me that if my explanation was true and legitimate with evidential documents provided, I will be able to appeal successfully. I merely had to go through the appeals process (call the number/email etc).

I did as told - scanned my SFN and my 7-day ticket and sent it through to the appeals process with an explanation of my circumstance. NB: My 7-day ticket did now expire until two days after the SFN was issued to me. i.e. it was a valid ticket.

A week later, the reply letter arrived and stated that my fare still stands as I was "unable to produce a valid ticket ticket while travelling on the Luas."

I understand that the Bye-Laws on which the fare liability arose from state that you must have a ticket 'in possession' however as the 'Bye-Laws' (yes, I read it, ha.) stated no definition of 'possession', I referenced the Oxford Dictionary, which states that 'possession' is to have, own and control. As at the date of the SFN issue, I clearly possessed a valid ticket. It just was not physically on me.

I addressed this to Veolia and I was given a rushed reply (the letter, for a start, was dated '9 September 2010' ?) stating the appeals committee had voted against my appeal - simply that, without any explanation.

What are my legal rights in this matter, given there is absolutely nothing legally binding me to pay this fare as I have not violated any part of their Bye-Laws, which brings about the liability of the fare?

If I were legitimately in the wrong, I would happily (ok, maybe not happily.. but I would surrender to my wrongdoings) pay the fare however in this circumstance, it was merely an honest mistake. I had no malice intention to deceive or cheat Veolia and their rightful revenue.

I would greatly appreciate if any of you could please advise or share your experience if you had a similar one?

Thanks so much in advance.

daddydick

similar has happened me twice, where i had forgotten my weekly ticket and only noticed when the ticket inspector asked.

On both occasions I received a letter saying that my appeal was successful.

I can't believe that they are not accepting your appeal, downright ridiculous.

I hope you succeed in your appeal.

LolaScarlett

Hey, thanks for your reply.

The fact that they are clearly inconsistent in their treatment makes me that bit more angry than I already am!

I have heard that they treat monthly/annual ticket holders different to weekly holders but now that I've heard your story, it makes me more confident that they are, in fact, just being ridic.

Perhaps calling them will be more successful than a letter..

greeno

Ask them why they NEVER ask the Pikies for their tickets just simply walk on past them as they fleece the system. Yet us normal law abiding citizens are treated like you op. Luas ticket inspectors are simply cowards.

angel01

greeno wrote: »

Ask them why they NEVER ask the Pikies for their tickets just simply walk on past them as they fleece the system. Yet us normal law abiding citizens are treated like you op. Luas ticket inspectors are simply cowards.

They claim it is because these people have no fixed abode and just remove them from the tram.

AlekSmart

greeno wrote: »

Ask them why they NEVER ask the Pikies for their tickets just simply walk on past them as they fleece the system. Yet us normal law abiding citizens are treated like you op. Luas ticket inspectors are simply cowards.

I rather suspect,that it`s all to to with a Corporate distaste for confrontation which may turn nasty,ie: physical.

The usual Red Line vexatious "customers" will think nothing of throwing a mouthful of steaming pus filled spit at a Revenue or Security staff member.

However to describe them as cowards is unfair and untrue.

What they are is a group of individuals performing an increasingly dangerous task with only the bare minumum of backup from their employer and the many vaired Agencies of State involved in this.

I would speculate that the Inspectors Training is peppered with words and phrases such as "Discretion" , "Avoidance of Physical Confrontation","Need to be recogniscant of non-obvious disabilities" etc etc ad nauseum.

The "Pikies",to use a dreadful UK'ism,are just SO well aware of their rights,entitlements and power at this stage that they rule the roost.

Whilst that was understandable on the Bus service,having developed over decades of PR based management theory,it is inexcusable that it has come to this on a virtually brand spanking new mode of public service.

The RPA and its Luas operator needed to begin as they intended to carry on.

The very first misbehaving cur to appear on Luas needed to be hauled very publicly over the hottest bed of spikes and exhibited for all to see.......sadly that was never going to happen in our little administrative heaven which now sees us all (OP included) playing catch-up.

As for the OP`s original topic....there's only one place to get this sorted out.....The Courts !

Cookie_Monster

what exactly are you looking for here?

you travelled without a valid ticket with you and got fined.
if you just had to have a ticket but could leave it at home there would be massive abuse of the system, hence you have to carry it while travelling...

seems pretty simple to me.

daddydick

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what exactly are you looking for here?

you travelled without a valid ticket with you and got fined.
if you just had to have a ticket but could leave it at home there would be massive abuse of the system, hence you have to carry it while travelling...

seems pretty simple to me.

To be fair to OP she had "in her possession"a valid travel ticket. For the inspectors to advise her to scan a copy to the head office to appeal, and then for this appeal to be rejected really isn't good business practice. As i said it has happened to me on two occasions and on both occasions the penalty has been lifted. Veolia need to be consistent in their approach. This maybe why the OP is (in my view correctly) pissed off with the situation.

-Chris-

greeno wrote: »

Ask them why they NEVER ask the Pikies for their tickets just simply walk on past them as they fleece the system. Yet us normal law abiding citizens are treated like you op. Luas ticket inspectors are simply cowards.

No need for "pikies", thanks

Victor

OP, does the weekly ticket have an ID associated with it? They are much more likely to waive the Standard Fare Notice is such a case. In the case of a ticket with no ID, for all they know, you borrowed it off a friend.

http://www.luas.ie/7day-and-30day-tickets.html

Adults and Children don’t need to carry a Photo Identity Card when travelling with 7Day tickets. Students must carry a valid Student Travel Card when travelling with 7 Day tickets. 7 Day tickets are valid for an unlimited number of trips for 7 consecutive days.

Do you have previous tickets, so you can show a pattern of paying for tickets?

One option, and I don't know how successful the route would be, would be to offer to change to monthly or annual ticket and ask them to waive the SFN. Indeed, if you employer participates in the TaXsaver scheme, that may make sense: http://www.luas.ie/tax-saver-tickets.html

"Possession" is such a case means with you on the tram, not at home. Any first year law student would understand that, nevermind a judge.

Your alternatives appear to be either try to appeal further (time may be against you), pay the fine or go to court and plead your case.

---

greeno wrote: »

Ask them why they NEVER ask the Pikies for their tickets just simply walk on past them as they fleece the system. Yet us normal law abiding citizens are treated like you op. Luas ticket inspectors are simply cowards.

Less of the bigoted language please.

AlekSmart wrote: »

The very first misbehaving cur to appear on Luas needed to be hauled very publicly over the hottest bed of spikes and exhibited for all to see.......

Perhaps not so graphically, but such matters do need to be dealt with.

LolaScarlett

Victor wrote: »

Do you have previous tickets, so you can show a pattern of paying for tickets?

I purchase a ticket every week with my Laser card, so yes, if they request proof of previous purchases - I can more than happily abide to their request. But instead, they have merely rejected my appeal sans any explanation with regard to the matter so thanks for that point - I will raise that with them too.
- and yes, lol. I did carry a student card with me. The ID from which the Luas ticket inspector took down my details was, in fact, my student card.

I understand that possession will usually mean in person however what has annoyed me further was their brash reply to my appeal. In addition to this, it does not in fact state in the Bye-Laws the definition of possession though there are definitions of terms such as 'valid ticket' etc etc. First year law students would first and foremost read a legislation by given definitions as most legal instruments would provide one..

Cookie_Monster, I am looking for Veolia to use their discretion and waive my standard fare.
Fair, if I have been caught 3 or more times, but this was due to an honest mistake where I had no intention to cheat their system. I left my freaking ticket at home accidentally. Others, like daddydick, have made this simple human error and have been 'forgiven' (if that's even the right word to use). What has ticked me off further now is that they are clearly inconsistent in their treatment of appeals.

Thanks for all your replies, guys. Appreciate it.

markpb

LolaScarlett wrote: »

I did carry a student card with me. The ID from which the Luas ticket inspector took down my details was, in fact, my student card.

What Victor is asking is if your ticket was tied to a photo ID by writing the ID number on the ticket. If a Luas photo ID number is written on your weekly ticket, no-one else should/could have used it. If it was just a generally issued ticket, you could have given your ticket to a friend and then used Luas without a ticket. I'm not suggesting you did, just that they may look at it this way.

AlekSmart

LolaScarlett wrote: »

I did carry a student card with me. The ID from which the Luas ticket inspector took down my details was, in fact, my student card.


Cookie_Monster, I am looking for Veolia to use their discretion and waive my standard fare.
Fair, if I have been caught 3 or more times, but this was due to an honest mistake where I had no intention to cheat their system. I left my freaking ticket at home accidentally. Others, like daddydick, have made this simple human error and have been 'forgiven' (if that's even the right word to use). What has ticked me off further now is that they are clearly inconsistent in their treatment of appeals.

Thanks for all your replies, guys. Appreciate it.

LolaScarlett,re the Student Card you presented,was it the Student Travel Card ?

www.studenttravelcard.ie

There may well be,in the Inspectors view,an associated problem with invalid ID ?

Have you ascertained this from Veolia ?

Victor: "Possession" is such a case means with you on the tram, not at home. Any first year law student would understand that, nevermind a judge.

Interestingly Victor,this simple requirement presents HUGE ongoing difficulties to many groups of Pass/Ticket holders.

I would on a daily basis have many folks walk past me with a cheery wave and a "I have a Pass"...."On the house" ...."He's/She's with me" remark.

Invariably if I attempt to call them back and ask to see their pass I`m told it`s at home,in my other bag or anywhere except on their person.

The DSP's Free Travel Scheme requirements are very simple and clearly state that if you have'nt the Document on your person then you must pay ( :eek:) for your journey.

The level of bad-tempered response directed at a Busdriver when such payment is sought can be enlighteneing in the extreme....:)

Victor

LolaScarlett wrote: »

I purchase a ticket every week with my Laser card, so yes, if they request proof of previous purchases

Tell them this, don't wait for them to ask.

and yes, lol. I did carry a student card with me. The ID from which the Luas ticket inspector took down my details was, in fact, my student card.

Only the student travel card counts, not any old student card.

I understand that possession will usually mean in person however what has annoyed me further was their brash reply to my appeal. In addition to this, it does not in fact state in the Bye-Laws the definition of possession though there are definitions of terms such as 'valid ticket' etc etc. First year law students would first and foremost read a legislation by given definitions as most legal instruments would provide one..

Actually, "possession" is a word that is studied in detail and one would know that context is important.

the groutch

another person who got caught out any is trying to use a technicality to get off

you didnt have a valid ticket, just pay up and learn a valuable lesson

LolaScarlett

AlekSmart wrote: »

LolaScarlett,re the Student Card you presented,was it the Student Travel Card ?

www.studenttravelcard.ie

There may well be,in the Inspectors view,an associated problem with invalid ID ?

Have you ascertained this from Veolia ?

Yep, it's the Student Travel Card. My photo on it; my name on it; the institution at which I am a student at etc etc, i.e. legitimate. Like the rest of my circumstance.

Victor wrote: »

Only the student travel card counts, not any old student card.

Yep, it's the Student Travel Card. The one you pay 12EUR + admin fee for. My current one is valid and does not expire until 31 December 2011.

the groutch wrote: »

another person who got caught out any is trying to use a technicality to get off

you didnt have a valid ticket, just pay up and learn a valuable lesson

What did I get caught out doing? Having paid for and owning a valid ticket which was not expired but accidentally leaving it at home?
Valuable lesson is right though, geez. Honest mistake + ruthless revenue-raising = desperation for Easter weekend to get here so I can drown my frustration in chocolatey goodness.

dudara

Just realized that the original thread is from 2011. So sorry for my response which directed to the OP.

@dayna2010 - no harm in trying. For example, the Dutch travel card allows you to request a refund in situations where you forgot to tag off