Hybrid Vigour -Stock bull question

patjack

Hi all, question for ye, does anyone out there use a crossbred bull for breeding? I know they used say that a good suckler cow is derived from something like this

Continental Sire * Freisen Dam = Continental Freisen Cross

then, Continental Freisen Cross DAM * Different Cont Sire

= Good Suckler

Anyways, my question isn't on the above but rather does anyone try to achieve hybrid vigour by use of a cross bred bull, or does this make sense?

I know most commercial sucklers run purebred bulls, so I am guessing it isn't as useful to try to introduce hybrid vigour using a cross bred bull. i.e we'll say how about using a bull with a pb bb sire and pb lim dam????


I am thinking of changing my stock bull, currently a pb limosin,

Anyone have any thoughts?

Bizzum

If you are currently running a PB Lim bull with a commercial herd and producing crossbred calves, do these calves not exhibit hybrid vigour?

patjack

Bizzum wrote: »

If you are currently running a PB Lim bull with a commercial herd and producing crossbred calves, do these calves not exhibit hybrid vigour?

Hi Bizzum, yes, but I guess what I am getting at, lets say I have the "ideal suckler cow" could her offspring be improved further by putting her in calf to a crossbred bull rather than a purebred bull? I know it depends on the offspring your looking for but do you get what I am getting at

Tipp Man

Saw a picture of a Lim/Belgium blue cross bull on Brit farming forum. 1 of the best looking animals I had seen in a very long time

bogman_bass

apparently this is becoming popular in New Zealand

manjou

Tried this last year on heifers cause only had 8 kept unrelated simmxlim weanling to bull then hooked him. calves came all shapes and colours no consistencey. So wont be doing this again.

Tipp Man

manjou wrote: »

Tried this last year on heifers cause only had 8 kept unrelated simmxlim weanling to bull then hooked him. calves came all shapes and colours no consistencey. So wont be doing this again.

Depends on where you're trying to sell them i suppose

Colour much less of an issue in marts than for exporting

Muckit

It can work out as handy as any from a management point of view. It totally depends on your circumstance.

If your a small suckler farmer (say with 8-10sucklers), how can you justify buying a bull? And before people start saying 'sure you'I get a half decent lad for €1500'.... yes you will, but buying him is the easy part. It's affording to keep him that's the real issue.

As for AI, it's easy perhaps spot the first few, but there's always the last few that are near impossible to spot, as the rest are in calf. Then take into consideration the time to spot heats etc...

Keep a good weanling bull that you've culled the mother of, for 8weeks, then squeeze. Job done and he's well earned his keep;)

snowman707

the problem with using a X sire is that you could run into serious calving problems

reilig

snowman707 wrote: »

the problem with using a X sire is that you could run into serious calving problems

I was going to say the same. I've seen serious inconsistencies in calving traits off crossbred sires - One calf could be very small, the other might have to be taken by section. You don't know what you're going to have and you can't plan for it.

Muckit

snowman707 wrote: »

the problem with using a X sire is that you could run into serious calving problems

More so than using PB? I've seen calves come all shapes sizes too from PB.

Genetics, as far as I can see, is a complete lottery whether PB or not.

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

Genetics, as far as I can see, is a complete lottery whether PB or not.

I couldn't disagree more. If that was the case then we wouldn't be able to use easy calving BB AI on our suckler herds. If you didn't rely on genetics, how would you choose your ai straws? How would you choose a pedigree stock bull? By Chance?? I don't think so.

Muckit

What I'm saying is nothing is 100% guaranteed. Show me a farmer that's used all easy calving straws on 100 cows and has had 100% success, so much so that he could sell his calving jack?

I've used and use 'easy calving' straws too, some were far from easy calving !:rolleyes:

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

What I'm saying is nothing is 100% guaranteed. Show me a farmer that's used all easy calving straws on 100 cows and has had 100% success, so much so that he could sell his calving jack?

I've used and use 'easy calving' straws too, some were far from easy calving !:rolleyes:

but I think the point that Snowman was making was that with a x sire, you will have no traits and they can come very big or very small with no defined calving trait.

At least with a genetically defined easy calving pedigree - the bull's breeding is for easy calving. The breeding of your cow and your feeding policy will also have an impact of the ease of calving.

Look at it this way - if you have an easy calving cow and you use a genetically indentified easy calving bull, and you implement a proper pre-calving feeding policy, then you stand a much better chance of an easy calving than if you were breeding with a cow that has always found it hard to calve, that is carrying to a cross bred bull with no calving stats and has been fed ad lib on quality silage up to calving.

At the end of the day, there's no sure way of having an easy calver, its all about taking a chance. But you can lower the risk by choosing bulls with easy calving traits.

Nothing is 100% in this life - only death.

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

Nothing is 100% in this life - only death.

And tax - lots and lots of tax

Muckit

Yes so it's not 100% certain either then that the x weanling will sire a chequered pattern of calves :rolleyes:

What if the chosen x bull weanling was from an easy calving cow that had been sired by AI with an easy calving straw?

Bizzum

By using a PB bull your probability of breeding a specific trait or set of traits is higher than using a crossbred bull, thus the probability of greater consistancy.
There are so many combinations of genes even with 2 PB parents that no matter what you can never guarentee the outcome.
So: You cross the best with the best and hope for the best!

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

Yes so it's not 100% certain either then that the x weanling will sire a chequered pattern of calves :rolleyes:

But there is a much higher risk. That's why the majority of people choose a pedigree.

reilig

Bizzum wrote: »

You cross the best with the best and hope for the best!

That's what I was trying to say