NIR tendering for disposal of Class 450, Class 80

dowlingm

via IRN, Translink have posted tender info for anyone wanting to take the Class 450s and 80s off their hands starting in Q3 2011. Maybe IE could buy them just for their TPWS gear

http://www.translink.co.uk/Corporate/Tenders/Rail-Vehicles-for-Disposal/
http://www.translink.co.uk/Documents/Class%20450-80%20Procurement%20Portfolio.pdf

Cookie_Monster

I wonder how much they are looking for and whether any will make it to preservation (prob to early yet)

L1011

Wonder how much they'd want for them, could be handy for anyone wanting to keep a rural line open to get a rich benefactor to buy an 80 and threaten Irish Rail with an open access case to the EU...

Transportuser09

Only travelled on those things once or twice, quite noisy, seating was a bit spartan to my liking.

Even if a benefactor could be found the EU legislation only gives open access to freight, not regular domestic passenger service. I'm not sure how international passenger service stands.

L1011

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Only travelled on those things once or twice, quite noisy, seating was a bit spartan to my liking.

Even if a benefactor could be found the EU legislation only gives open access to freight, not regular domestic passenger service. I'm not sure how international passenger service stands.

Current EU rules for here do freight and international, there's only a stay on open access passenger which I'm sure someone could argue around.

Cookie_Monster

MYOB wrote: »

Current EU rules for here do freight and international, there's only a stay on open access passenger which I'm sure someone could argue around.

Indeed, I'm sure they could, just like the crowd running trains down on the Waterford line... oh wait

L1011

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Indeed, I'm sure they could, just like the crowd running trains down on the Waterford line... oh wait

They rather lack any trains to run!

The 80s must be CAWS fitted seeing as they rented them to CIE.

flyingsnail

MYOB wrote: »

They rather lack any trains to run!

The 80s must be CAWS fitted seeing as they rented them to CIE.

From the links above

AWS Fitted: Yes
CAWS Fitted: No
TPWS Fitted: Yes
OTMR Fitted: Yes

I was in the cab of an 80 in York Road (on an official visit) and there was no visible CAWS gear in there.

L1011

So did CIE let them operate the Greystones Shuttle and the Maynooth line with no CAWS then?

Cookie_Monster

MYOB wrote: »

So did CIE let them operate the Greystones Shuttle and the Maynooth line with no CAWS then?

Wikipedia

Three 3-car sets were leased by Iarnród Éireann (IÉ) from NIR in October 1987 for use on, respectively, the Bray–Greystones shuttle (previously operated by a push–pull set rebuilt from CIÉ 2600 Class railcars), the Dublin Connolly–Maynooth route, and the Cork–Cobh line. They were originally intended as a short-term measure until Mark 3 push–pull sets became available.[1] The sets entered service on November 2. In addition to their regular services, they were employed on a variety of other workings, including a nine-car All-Ireland hurling special from Cork to Dublin. However, although the sets were fitted with Continuous Automatic Warning System and IÉ train radio in March 1990 and "for a while it appeared as if the units were going to be purchased by [IÉ]," NIR required them back when the lease expired at the end of October 1990. A brief "stay of execution" for the Greystones shuttle lasted until November 26.[2]

So at least 3 sets had CAWS at one point, maybe those still do or maybe it was removed again

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Wikipedia


So at least 3 sets had CAWS at one point, maybe those still do or maybe it was removed again

It could have been removed, a lot can happen in 20 years. It would have been the old WABCO equipment and therefore would need to be replaced with SASIB gear anyway.

Jehuty42

IE seem to be removing CAWS anyway(insane considering that it is one of the most advanced safety systems out there worldwide as they go along. New builds like the WRC and possible Dunboyne have axle counters instead of track circuits and relays seem to be installing axle counters too. It's because track circuit systems are difficult to maintain and badly affected by the infamous "track faults"(cracks in the rail that close the circuit) you see in delay messages.

Jehuty42

Jehuty42 wrote: »

IE seem to be removing CAWS anyway(insane considering that it is one of the most advanced safety systems out there worldwide as they go along. New builds like the WRC and possible Dunboyne have axle counters instead of track circuits and relays seem to be installing axle counters too. It's because track circuit systems are difficult to maintain and badly affected by the infamous "track faults"(cracks in the rail that close the circuit) you see in delay messages.

True, though the secondary lines didn't have CAWS anyway (mini CTC areas). I'm not sure about Dunboyne but I'd say it probably does use CAWS. The new rebuilds with axle counters, such as in Portarlington, use cabling to send the CAWS signal around the axle counters so it still works.

dowlingm

If the 450s weren't 25 years old already I'd be wondering whether they could be refitted from diesel-electric to electric as a way of bulking up the DART fleet, but they are so I won't

Fitted with CAWS gear ripped out of the doomed remaining Mk3 PP IE could use a six car consist on the Newry-Connolly run rather than the non-TPWS fitted 29000s - pity they're only good for 70mph

L1011

The 450s are more than 40 years old underneath - second hand Mark 1 carriage bogies, engines from their old kit and only new body shells. The 80s are overall newer!

Victor

International service, Belfast-Waterford, via Wexford. :pac:

A Dub in Glasgo

Jehuty42 wrote: »

IE seem to be removing CAWS anyway(insane considering that it is one of the most advanced safety systems out there worldwide as they go along. New builds like the WRC and possible Dunboyne have axle counters instead of track circuits and relays seem to be installing axle counters too. It's because track circuit systems are difficult to maintain and badly affected by the infamous "track faults"(cracks in the rail that close the circuit) you see in delay messages.

Axle counters are much cheaper to install and maintain. Those track faults that affect track circuits are actually PWay faults and can be quite dangerous therefore the fact that the TC puts the signalling back to the most restrictive aspect is a good thing. Axle counters will not detect broken rails like TCs do.

kc56

Jehuty42 wrote: »

IE seem to be removing CAWS anyway(insane considering that it is one of the most advanced safety systems out there worldwide as they go along. New builds like the WRC and possible Dunboyne have axle counters instead of track circuits and relays seem to be installing axle counters too. It's because track circuit systems are difficult to maintain and badly affected by the infamous "track faults"(cracks in the rail that close the circuit) you see in delay messages.

CAWS is not being removed!
IE have changed from track-circuits to axel counters for detecting trains on Heuston/Kildare but CAWS remains. There are insulated joints in the tracks at every signal, including the new 4-track section, to enable the CAWS information to be transmitted. Single tracks never had CAWS; it only applies to dual/triple/quad tracks where there is a risk of one training running into the rear of another. With single tracks, normally the entire block between passing points is used exclusively for one train at a time.

Drimnagh Road

For any fans of these trains, the IRRS are running a farewell run on the 80 class on Saturday 14th May:

Details from the irrs website, www.irrs.ie

Travel from Dublin will be on the 09:35 Enterprise to Lisburn, where participants will change onto a charted 80 class. The special train will leave Lisburn and travel to Larne. The train will return to Belfast Central and then go to Bangor and back to Belfast. Participants will return home on the 18:10 Enterprise back to Dublin.

Dublin Connolly: 09:35
Lisburn: 12:00
Larne: 14:40
Belfast Central: 15:35
Bangor: 16:47
Belfast Central: 18:10
Dublin Connolly: 20:15

Fares:

• Return from Dublin: €58 / £49
• Return from Lisburn: €20 / £16.50
• Members with free travel: €20 / £16.50

Lunch will be available at the Curran Court Hotel in Larne at €16 or £13.50:

• Stuffed roast chicken.
• Roast Turkey & Ham with Cranberry sauce.
• Roast beef and Stuffing.
• Grilled rainbow trout with almonds

L1011

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

Lunch will be available at the Curran Court Hotel in Larne at €16 or £13.50:

[*]Stuffed roast chicken.
[*]Roast Turkey & Ham with Cranberry sauce.
[*]Roast beef and Stuffing.
[*]Grilled rainbow trout with almonds

I'm saying nothing :pac:

:P:P

Run_to_da_hills

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

For any fans of these trains, the IRRS are running a farewell run on the 80 class on Saturday 14th May:

Details from the irrs website, www.irrs.ie

Travel from Dublin will be on the 09:35 Enterprise to Lisburn, where participants will change onto a charted 80 class. The special train will leave Lisburn and travel to Larne. The train will return to Belfast Central and then go to Bangor and back to Belfast. Participants will return home on the 18:10 Enterprise back to Dublin.

Dublin Connolly: 09:35
Lisburn: 12:00
Larne: 14:40
Belfast Central: 15:35
Bangor: 16:47
Belfast Central: 18:10
Dublin Connolly: 20:15

Fares:

• Return from Dublin: €58 / £49
• Return from Lisburn: €20 / £16.50
• Members with free travel: €20 / £16.50

Lunch will be available at the Curran Court Hotel in Larne at €16 or £13.50:

• Stuffed roast chicken.
• Roast Turkey & Ham with Cranberry sauce.
• Roast beef and Stuffing.
• Grilled rainbow trout with almonds

Is there a McDonalds in Larne?

Cookie_Monster

Old restored carriages/trains from a bygone age I can understand by why on earth people would pay to ride these horrid old barely in service heaps is beyond me

wild handlin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Old restored carriages/trains from a bygone age I can understand by why on earth people would pay to ride these horrid old barely in service heaps is beyond me

Why not? They will all be part of history one day soon; each to their own.

Losty Dublin

kc56 wrote: »

Single tracks never had CAWS; it only applies to dual/triple/quad tracks where there is a risk of one training running into the rear of another.

I must pick you up on this, albeit 2 weeks later. Single track sections of line do indeed employ CAWS. It's main use on double track line is down to the fact that Dublin-Cork and DART lines have more use from it, many branch lines relying until recently on good old ETS and the odd section of Harpers Absolute Block.

Run_to_da_hills

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Old restored carriages/trains from a bygone age I can understand by why on earth people would pay to ride these horrid old barely in service heaps is beyond me

That was the exact same attitude given to the CIE AEC railcars and today there is absolutly nothing to show of them.

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I must pick you up on this, albeit 2 weeks later. Single track sections of line do indeed employ CAWS. It's main use on double track line is down to the fact that Dublin-Cork and DART lines have more use from it, many branch lines relying until recently on good old ETS and the odd section of Harpers Absolute Block.

Yes - I believe the single track section from Limerick Junction to Killonan Junction is mainline CTC and therefore has CAWS.

Judgement Day

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

That was the exact same attitude given to the CIE AEC railcars and today there is absolutly nothing to show of them.

Not true this example (6111) is lovingly preserved by CIE/IE at Inchicore Works.

Partizan

Drimnagh Road wrote: »

Lunch will be available at the Curran Court Hotel in Larne at €16 or £13.50:

• Stuffed roast chicken.
• Roast Turkey & Ham with Cranberry sauce.
• Roast beef and Stuffing.
• Grilled rainbow trout with almonds

hmmmm, chicken dinners

dowlingm

Closed lines and clapped out stock can be useful!

http://chrisplayfairphotography.weebly.com/16th-may---22nd.html

Victor

Behave.

dermo88

If people want to take a last train on this, its not a problem. They are'nt doing any harm whatsoever.

Run to the hills In response, It would be nice to preserve them, but is it practical, or desirable. Before we knew it, we'd have a Museum worse than the Dromod mess.

As for the 80/450 Class railcars, they are the last in the line of a design and engineering type going back to the early 1960's. They were groundbreaking and revolutionary in their time. Up until the mid 1990's, NIR ran a more frequent service and more customer friendly system in Northern Ireland than Iarnrod Eireann. Now its a case of NIR playing catchup with IE.

The 450's represent the make do and mend spirit, which was in Inchicore as much as Northern Ireland. Its only that they are "half a locomotive", with a carriage hacked on that makes them popular with enthusiasts. Particularly English Electric, due to its distinctive sound.,

L1011

An 80 powercar is "preserved" on 4'8.5" bogies in the UK already although it seems they see it as a spares unit for a UK Thumper.

Run_to_da_hills

dermo88 wrote: »

If people want to take a last train on this, its not a problem. They are'nt doing any harm whatsoever.

Run to the hills In response, It would be nice to preserve them, but is it practical, or desirable. Before we knew it, we'd have a Museum worse than the Dromod mess.

As for the 80/450 Class railcars, they are the last in the line of a design and engineering type going back to the early 1960's. They were groundbreaking and revolutionary in their time. Up until the mid 1990's, NIR ran a more frequent service and more customer friendly system in Northern Ireland than Iarnrod Eireann. Now its a case of NIR playing catchup with IE.

The 450's represent the make do and mend spirit, which was in Inchicore as much as Northern Ireland. Its only that they are "half a locomotive", with a carriage hacked on that makes them popular with enthusiasts. Particularly English Electric, due to its distinctive sound.,

No doubt being in the North of Ireland where enthusiasts do have a genuine following for rail heritage a complete DMU set will be meticulously preserved and used on regular diesel rail tours unlike this country where anything diesel seems to end up banished in some stand alone scrap yard 30 miles off the beaten track (Pun intended).

dermo88

BUT the Republic of Ireland has a much higher proportion of its historical mainline network intact. Around 75% of the railways within Northern Ireland closed after partition. Granted....in their shoes, I'd have closed 40% of that network anyway, a similar proportion to the South.

Diesel preservation is a relatively new field, when you consider that Ireland is now on Gen2 Diesel stock.

Niles

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

No doubt being in the North of Ireland where enthusiasts do have a genuine following for rail heritage a complete DMU set will be meticulously preserved and used on regular diesel rail tours unlike this country where anything diesel seems to end up banished in some stand alone scrap yard 30 miles off the beaten track (Pun intended).

It's unlikely in the extreme that running a DMU set on regular railtours would be viable in Ireland (in either the North or the Republic). There just isn't the neccessary "critical mass" when it comes to the amount of enthusiasts needed to support such a venture. The Irish Traction Group tried running tours with preserved diesels back in the late 1990s, the amount of people booking on the tours decreased with each trip and it became unviable (insurance costs, etc). If regular diesel locomotive hauled runs are unviable then there is little hope for a railcar one.

Run_to_da_hills

Niles wrote: »

It's unlikely in the extreme that running a DMU set on regular rail tours would be viable in Ireland (in either the North or the Republic). There just isn't the necessary "critical mass" when it comes to the amount of enthusiasts needed to support such a venture. The Irish Traction Group tried running tours with preserved diesels back in the late 1990s, the amount of people booking on the tours decreased with each trip and it became enviable (insurance costs, etc). If regular diesel locomotive hauled runs are unviable then there is little hope for a railcar one.

If you are talking about the Metrovics, 1999 was only 4 years after 001 ceased active use with CIE, it was far too close a gap. The sight of them was still fresh in peoples minds. Today parents would want to show their kids the real trains that they used to travel in.

I can remember seeing A39 pull into Ennis in 1999 and I wasn't too phased by the sight of itas it was parked in Colbert Station for years yet in 2010 I traveled along with two bus loads to see the same loco launched in Downpatrick. If it was well advertised people would travel also it would have to be on a special open day along side of other activities such as the 30th anniversary of the Dart or something similar.

Hungerford

dermo88 wrote: »

The 450's represent the make do and mend spirit, which was in Inchicore as much as Northern Ireland.

I think that that's probably a key reason why a 450-class should be preserved. They are a really testament to the resourcefulness of NIR during a difficult period in its history. Placing a modern body onto the undercarriage and engine of a 70-class shouldn't have worked that well but it did. In fact, they are still more comfortable and generally quieter than the commuter railcars run in the South.

Losty Dublin

Karsini wrote: »

Yes - I believe the single track section from Limerick Junction to Killonan Junction is mainline CTC and therefore has CAWS.

That is right. CAWS exists wherever the initial sections of CTC were installed; it's single track coverage was as far as Athy, Knockcroghery, Killonan, Greystones, Ballinasloe and interestingly enough, Athlone towards Moate.

niles wrote:

It's unlikely in the extreme that running a DMU set on regular railtours would be viable in Ireland (in either the North or the Republic). There just isn't the neccessary "critical mass" when it comes to the amount of enthusiasts needed to support such a venture. The Irish Traction Group tried running tours with preserved diesels back in the late 1990s, the amount of people booking on the tours decreased with each trip and it became unviable (insurance costs, etc). If regular diesel locomotive hauled runs are unviable then there is little hope for a railcar one

Correct. The prime factor that curtails diesel preservation are bodies to support it, either through helping out with the hard graft or by opening wallets to pay it's way; it's very much a niche and a small market in the scheme of things as the general public want to see steam; it's railways equivilent of American's buying shillelaghs or shamrocks. RPSI's diesel trip last autumn saw them run at a loss on the event; the same trip with steam would have sold out in no time, even at short notice.

I'd see maybe two sets of the 80's and 450's being saved, I know of one practical application for the 80's that I know has been talked about by those in the know

dowlingm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I know of one practical application for the 80's that I know has been talked about by those in the know

Not Dick Fearn's idea for a DMU freight train surely? :eek:

Niles

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If you are talking about the Metrovics, 1999 was only 4 years after 001 ceased active use with CIE, it was far too close a gap. The sight of them was still fresh in peoples minds. Today parents would want to show their kids the real trains that they used to travel in.

I can remember seeing A39 pull into Ennis in 1999 and I wasn't too phased by the sight of itas it was parked in Colbert Station for years yet in 2010 I traveled along with two bus loads to see the same loco launched in Downpatrick. If it was well advertised people would travel also it would have to be on a special open day along side of other activities such as the 30th anniversary of the Dart or something similar.

The reality is though unless they are enthusiasts today's parents aren't interested in bringing their kids on a special diesel trip. You will get enough enthusiasts to run an event once or twice a year but no way will you get enough to run them at the frequency that steam trips are run. (And if you are talking about mainline trip frequent trips are needed to pay for the insurance). It's a different ballgame in the UK where there seems to be enough enthusiasts for there to be at least one railtour nearly every week.

The 80 class are no doubt worthy of preservation, I've little interest in them myself but acknowledge they are a key element in the development and operation of NIR over the preceding four decades or so. Perhaps if a group of interested individuals were to pool their money and resources to save a set and buy a site to store it on there might be some hope.

dowlingm

A bunch of 80 class were scrapped this week
http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/2515/80-Class-Scrapping#.TzyXgs3Oy69

Run_to_da_hills

dowlingm wrote: »

A bunch of 80 class were scrapped this week
http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/2515/80-Class-Scrapping#.TzyXgs3Oy69

R.I.P.

Hungerford

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

R.I.P.

There's no need to be so melodramatic - a complete Class 80 set has been set aside for preservation and is due to travel to the DCDR soon.

Run_to_da_hills

Hungerford wrote: »

There's no need to be so melodramatic - a complete Class 80 set has been set aside for preservation and is due to travel to the DCDR soon.

And more than likely these will be meticulously restored just our own AEC Park Royal's this side of the border.