Sea plane service from Dublin to Galway

Bazzy

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0413/1224294553855.html

A NEW air link is to be established between Galway and Dublin using seaplanes. The announcement by Harbour Flights Ireland comes less than a week after Aer Arann said it was pulling the plug on its three daily flights between Dublin and Galway as State subsidies were being withdrawn.

The Government had been providing almost €1 million a year under the public service obligation scheme for flights between Dublin and Galway but that funding is being discontinued from June.

The company behind the project hopes to have the service in place by September, with flights operating from the Poolbeg marina on the Liffey to Galway harbour.

According to the managing director of Harbour Flights Ireland, Emelyn Heaps, flight time between Dublin and Galway using the seaplanes will be 40 minutes.

“While we are sorry to see Aer Arann’s decision to halt the Galway to Dublin service, it is a boost to our plans, which we have been planning for the past four years,” said Mr Heaps.

“We hope to be in a position to launch the route in September.

“Flying directly from and to the city centres will reduce the travel time and all the waiting around in airports,” he added. “The whole journey could be done in a matter of minutes. We won’t have customs and we won’t have security clearance so passengers can arrive five minutes before the flight without worrying.”

The scheme will be subject to approval from the Irish Aviation Authority. Harbour Flights Ireland also plans to introduce seaplane flights between Galway and Limerick and the Aran Islands.

Tabnabs

Small plane, landing on water, wrong time of the year to launch that business venture

robbie_998

No Security, No customs, NO THANKS !


depending on what type of plane of course...

i'm thinking these things will hold at least 50 people.. if so .. no thanks !

Cessna_Pilot

Hmm, sink or swim? My guess is sink.

lintdrummer

I think this is a great idea, if it is done the right way. They wouldn't be subject to any of the airport fees that halted the Aer Arann service which would make the business cost effective.
I don't think that they should be touting it as an easy "security free" option. While the rigmarole at the airports is a nuisance, they should have basic security in place, a metal detector and x-ray machine. For the volume of passengers they would be carrying it wouldn't add any noticable time delay to your journey, being there 15 mins in advance of departure would suffice.
This country was a hub for seaplanes in the past so I don't see weather being an issue, as long as the harbours being used are fairly sheltered

Edit: Here is the link to the company website for anyone who's curious http://www.harbourflights.com/

Tabnabs

vs

http://www.irishships.com/images/Photo%20Album/Robbie%20Cox/other/Light%20Aircraft/Light%20Aircraft%20Lands%20&%20Takes%20off%20on%20River%20Liffey%2022-9-10%20(4).jpg

lintdrummer

Tabnabs wrote: »

vs

http://www.irishships.com/images/Photo%20Album/Robbie%20Cox/other/Light%20Aircraft/Light%20Aircraft%20Lands%20&%20Takes%20off%20on%20River%20Liffey%2022-9-10%20(4).jpg

So you're comparing a ground breaking transatlantic Seaplane with an aircraft designed for short haul domestic flights for a small island nation? :rolleyes:

Lapin

One of the main reasons I used the Aer Arann service was due to it being a handy link to onward connections at Dublin airport. This was particularly welcome on the return journey of a long haul flight. The short hop home making up the final leg of the trip is a godsend compared to facing a 3 hour drive after a long flight.

The flying boat service won't be able to offer that same convenience.

I'd love to see it work and would be willing to use it for day trips to Dublin (if the price was right).

Anyone know where abouts the terminal for the service will be located if it goes ahead ?

Tabnabs

emmettogara wrote: »

So you're comparing a ground breaking transatlantic Seaplane with an aircraft designed for short haul domestic flights for a small island nation? :rolleyes:

If you can manage to roll your eyes back into the front of you face for a minute, I'm comparing the size of the two in relationship to my original point of bad weather and small planes.

Delta Kilo

It is very reassuring that the "main driving force" behind the operation has just published a book entitled: "Heaps of Trouble"

jmayo

Are they really going to use a C206 ?
How much would each of the 5/6 pasengers be charge for the trip ?

Yeah I can see this service lasting, ehhh a week.

From their website:

Our Aviation Consultant Captain Kieran O Connor is handling the Aircraft Operating Certificate (AOC) from the Irish Aviation Authority on our behalf. Initially, we will be operating a Cessna 172 and a Cessna 206. By year two we hope to add a Cessna 208 to the fleet and by the third year, a 19 seat De Havilland Twin Otter.

If they were seious they would emply someone with experience from BC or Washington who would have vastly more experience in seaplane ops than mister NFC.
None of the directors appear to have seaplane ops history unless mr maritime engineer does ?

Where are they going to dock in Dublin and in Galway ?
Yes I know they have planning in Galway, but where are these pontoons and jettys going ?
You can't just pull a seaplane upto a normal quay side.

Will they be in business by the time they invisage using a twin otter, ideally I presume one with turboprops which would make it very maneouverable ?

BTW I don't know whey people have a huge fuss over customs and security ?
Hasn't anyone here ever taken pleasure flight or short hual flights abroad ?

Tea 1000

Surprised to see so much negativity here for this. Someone complaining about no custums or security checks as if it's a bad thing? Do they not take the train or bus for the same reasons?
I hope the company succeed. Saves giving more money to nasty Aer Rianta, who pretend they now are seperated into DAA, SAA and CAA... ya right!

Tabnabs

On the Liffey they'll use Poolbeg marina pontoons. Galway I don't know?

alan85

I think it will be a great tourist attraction. The only deterants would be weather and location. It would operate VFR and we all know how marginal Irish wx can be... Also, getting to and from their locations in Galway and Dublin. Poolbeg would take cerca. 20 mins to get to from city centre. Not sure where they'd dock in Galway but won't be an attractive prospect getting in or out of Galway city centre I can tell you! I find it hard to see it being a realistic option for commuting but brilliant for tourism!

Bazzy

If they docked on lough atalia in galway there's pontoons there for the power boat crowd its well sheltered and about 20 seconds from eyre square !

Tabnabs

They've done trials for Cobh too

http://cobhedition.com/?p=6534

Lapin

Bazzy wrote: »

If they docked on lough atalia in galway there's pontoons there for the power boat crowd its well sheltered and about 20 seconds from eyre square !

That would be a perfect location. Much calmer water than the bay.

Although it is residential on 3 sides. I reckon there would be a few objections.

The Radisson would love it though. Not many city centre hotels can boast a couple of helipads across the street and a fixed wing air service out the back !

Joe 90

One serious snag might well be corrosion. Not that many salt water seaplane operations around.

xflyer

Some serious misconceptions here. Lough Atalia isn't suitable being tidal and quite small. In any case they've already got planning permission for Galway Harbour, a jetty just outside the lock gate. They 'runway' as such is out in the bay.

jmayo, Kieran O'Connor has quite a bit of experience with seaplanes going back at least to the nineties. He supplied pilots for Ossie Kilkenny's C206 amphib and flew it himself a lot. He is also floatplane examiner. One of very few either in Britain or Ireland.

I agree with you on the customs and security, non issue though. No need for it, even in airports it's largely window dressing.

On the weather, frankly from my own experience really unflyable weather is rarer than people think, even in Ireland. Particularly in Summer when they will expect to be busy.

So there is no real reason this can't succeed at least on a small scale. Marketed properly there is potential. Not so sure about the commuter flights to Dublin but there is considerable tourist potential on the west coast.

However should they fall, I happen to know that someone is watching from the wings, no pun intended. Should be interesting.:cool:

Bazzy

xflyer wrote: »

Some serious misconceptions here. Lough Atalia isn't suitable being tidal and quite small. In any case they've already got planning permission for Galway Harbour, a jetty just outside the lock gate. They 'runway' as such is out in the bay.

jmayo, Kieran O'Connor has quite a bit of experience with seaplanes going back at least to the nineties. He supplied pilots for Ossie Kilkenny's C206 amphib and flew it himself a lot. He is also floatplane examiner. One of very few either in Britain or Ireland.

I agree with you on the customs and security, non issue though. No need for it, even in airports it's largely window dressing.

On the weather, frankly from my own experience really unflyable weather is rarer than people think, even in Ireland. Particularly in Summer when they will expect to be busy.

So there is no real reason this can't succeed at least on a small scale. Marketed properly there is potential. Not so sure about the commuter flights to Dublin but there is considerable tourist potential on the west coast.

However should they fall, I happen to know that someone is watching from the wings, no pun intended. Should be interesting.:cool:

My Lough atalia idea was pure pub stool piloting just thought it would be ok with the bridge and it being a bit more sheltered

* put on dunces hat and heads to the back of the class

xflyer

Bazzy wrote: »

My Lough atalia idea was pure pub stool piloting just thought it would be ok with the bridge and it being a bit more sheltered

* put on dunces hat and heads to the back of the class

I should join you. I actually considered it myself but one look at it at low tide changed my mind. Plus it's too short, you'd have a choice of hitting the G hotel or the railway bridge. Hitting the bridge would be cheaper for the insurance company.:eek:

Bazzy

I was thinking of landing out a bit and a small taxi in but sure thats why i don't fly one of them

deRanged

I saw them doing the trials in Cobh.
looks like fun!


IMG_4249 by Brian Clayton, on Flickr

more photos and video on my blog

TheAnswer

I think they should go the extra mile and get a Twin Otter, much more business like and more likely to instil confidence in pax. or how about this???
http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/4256-3/Beriev%2BSea%2BPlane.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/AeroIndia2007/Static/Beriev%2BSea%2BPlane.jpg.html&usg=__KzcGtg8A3dD8HkhUwt5ZIdqevRA=&h=800&w=1200&sz=68&hl=en&start=1&zoom=1&tbnid=3qFRDyf5SVjgDM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=150&ei=duKlTYfjNoW4hAftkrCuCQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dberiev%2Bseaplane%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Ds%26biw%3D1262%26bih%3D603%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1

Or anything else from the Beriev range, they have a model for every niche.

vulcan57

These services are hoped to be up and running by September...........Just in time for the winter and the bad weather Would have thought that it would have been better to start in the spring and get the thing established before all the cancellations due to the bay being too rough.

robbie_998

vulcan57 wrote: »

These services are hoped to be up and running by September...........Just in time for the winter and the bad weather Would have thought that it would have been better to start in the spring and get the thing established before all the cancellations due to the bay being too rough.

Brilliant ... roads and airports unusable ... use the sea and fly around ...win win ???

xflyer

Ah, the bay isn't that rough. It's cuddly compared to further out. You could easily see some form of service. But someone with an AOC could make money, maybe not with floats. Watch this space.:D

Lapin

Not quite a million miles off topic but here's an old Tribune article about the plans to bring a transatlantic seaplane service to Galway in the 1930s.

http://places.galwaylibrary.ie/history/chapter128.html

TheAnswer

What's the cruise speed of the Cessna with them feckin floats on? can't be much above 100mph. Probably over an hour Dublin-Galway so.

jmayo

Bazzy wrote: »

If they docked on lough atalia in galway there's pontoons there for the power boat crowd its well sheltered and about 20 seconds from eyre square !

Just need to watch the bridge as more than likely they would be heading that direction on take off.

Joe 90 wrote: »

One serious snag might well be corrosion. Not that many salt water seaplane operations around.

Go visit BC in Canada and watch the amount of floatplanes operating out of Vancouver, Victoria, Campbell River, etc.

xflyer wrote: »

Some serious misconceptions here. Lough Atalia isn't suitable being tidal and quite small. In any case they've already got planning permission for Galway Harbour, a jetty just outside the lock gate. They 'runway' as such is out in the bay.

jmayo, Kieran O'Connor has quite a bit of experience with seaplanes going back at least to the nineties. He supplied pilots for Ossie Kilkenny's C206 amphib and flew it himself a lot. He is also floatplane examiner. One of very few either in Britain or Ireland.

But there is a big difference between teaching and examining someone to fly floats/seaplanes, and running a commerical operation.
If they want to do this seriously get someone from the likes of BC with thousands of hours on floats, not someone that probably only flies in reasonably good conditions.
Trust me those guys over there fly in conditions people around here would not throw a cat out in.

xflyer wrote: »

I agree with you on the customs and security, non issue though. No need for it, even in airports it's largely window dressing.

As I said how many people have taken tourist pleasure flights and there was no security checks ?

xflyer wrote: »

On the weather, frankly from my own experience really unflyable weather is rarer than people think, even in Ireland. Particularly in Summer when they will expect to be busy.

Problem with floats is that if the weather gets windy and the water gets choppy enough, your options can be cut.
That is where taking off and landing in sheltered coves, lakes etc has advantage over open seas.
From my experience of living in Galway, the Bay always appeared open enough, whereas a river estuary like Foynes is protected.
I wonder if they had checked out using the Corrib ?

xflyer wrote: »

So there is no real reason this can't succeed at least on a small scale. Marketed properly there is potential. Not so sure about the commuter flights to Dublin but there is considerable tourist potential on the west coast.

Exactly you could operate flights between Galway and the likes of Killary Harbour for instance or flights down to Westport or Sligo.
Think about it you could lfy someone out over Connemara down to Killary and circle Croagh Patrick and back up to Galway.

xflyer wrote: »

However should they fall, I happen to know that someone is watching from the wings, no pun intended. Should be interesting.:cool:

Do tell ?

TheAnswer wrote: »

I think they should go the extra mile and get a Twin Otter, much more business like and more likely to instil confidence in pax. or how about this???

Or anything else from the Beriev range, they have a model for every niche.

As I said earlier a twin otter with turboprops would be ideal and very manoeuvrable in comparison to a single piston.
Failing that at least get somehting like a beaver.
There used to be a Beaver for sale in Scotland AFAIK.

jmayo

TheAnswer wrote: »

What's the cruise speed of the Cessna with them feckin floats on? can't be much above 100mph. Probably over an hour Dublin-Galway so.

I don't know about cruise speed, but a floatplane is the dogs bolli* for side slipping

Lapin

TheAnswer wrote: »

What's the cruise speed of the Cessna with them feckin floats on? can't be much above 100mph. Probably over an hour Dublin-Galway so.

By my calculations it would require an average ground speed of 179 mph to get from the docks to Poolbeg in 40 mins.

The distance between the two locations being 117 miles according to the toolbar on Google Earth.

The cruise speed of a Cessna 172P (Wiki) is 140 mph.

Without "them feckin floats".


So TheAnswer, the answer is probably over an hour indeed.

squonk

I think it's a great idea and I hope it takes off... ha ha, pardon the pun!

One thing though, and I'm speaking here as a member of Joe Public who isn't a pilot and isn't allowed near a plane unless I'm a passenger. It strikes me as dangerous! I'd be more comfortable in a larger plane other than a cesna. I know I'm probably talking rubbish, and I know it probably won't the least bit unsafe/risky, be but what I mean is that public perception could be hard to get around. For instance, hopping off to London on a B737/A320 is grand because, 1. it's big so won't be at the mercy of the weather so much and, 2. it's got 2 engines so that if one goes, you still get a decent chance to land somewhere. I think this kind of perception will be the company's biggest obstacle to overcome.

I wish them the best of luck. We need more niche services like this so it's great to see someone trying!

jmayo

For passenger services this is the ideal beast.

Try to those turns in a single non turboprop and good luck.

Why Vancouver is one of the best cities in the world

xflyer

jmayo wrote: »

But there is a big difference between teaching and examining someone to fly floats/seaplanes, and running a commerical operation.
If they want to do this seriously get someone from the likes of BC with thousands of hours on floats, not someone that probably only flies in reasonably good conditions.
Trust me those guys over there fly in conditions people around here would not throw a cat out in.

Well they originally had an agreement with Harbour Air Malta. But KOC knows about aviation and how to make money out of it. So not such a bad choice.

Exactly you could operate flights between Galway and the likes of Killary Harbour for instance or flights down to Westport or Sligo.
Think about it you could lfy someone out over Connemara down to Killary and circle Croagh Patrick and back up to Galway.

There is potential there and an opportunity. This has been noticed.

Do tell ?

No LOL:cool:

FlutterinBantam

Three words.


IS NOT A RUNNER.


(make that four)

Neworder79

Galway Airport manager not too happy about it:

Regarding the proposal by Harbour Flights Ireland to have a new seaplane service between Galway and Dublin in place by September Mr Walsh would only say that it was something about which Galway Airport needed to be consulted.

“Because it is within our controlled airspace and the IAA are the approver, Galway Airport has to be consulted on the proposal, but to date we haven’t been”.

Didn't Galway fall out with a lot of the general aviation community a few years back when they started sending ATC bills to anyone passing near "their" airspace. Doubt Harbour Flights will want anything to do with that.

Galway Airport faces uphill challenge to find new Dublin carrier

Lapin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

IS NOT A RUNNER.

Well spotted Flut.


Its a flyer.

Alkers

First post in this forum! Don't see how they can take off from poolbeg? It's a busy shipping lane, only just narrow enough for some of the larger ships to turn, also full of obstacles such as cranes and some of the ships can be ten stories high! Surely there's too many risks, the wake of a passing ship/boat hitting a plane trying to take off or land, only one orientation available for take off/landing no matter what the wind is doing. Not to mention there is nowhere to park or build any sort of terminus building?

murphym7

Simona1986 wrote: »

First post in this forum! Don't see how they can take off from poolbeg? It's a busy shipping lane, only just narrow enough for some of the larger ships to turn, also full of obstacles such as cranes and some of the ships can be ten stories high! Surely there's too many risks, the wake of a passing ship/boat hitting a plane trying to take off or land, only one orientation available for take off/landing no matter what the wind is doing. Not to mention there is nowhere to park or build any sort of terminus building?

That's a good point, one that I was thinking about yesterday. I was at sea for many years and would like to consider I know the rules of the road at sea. But I have never come across sea planes before. What are the rules of the road when it comes to planes landing and taking off at sea? Poolbeg has many ship movements, also Cobh is extremely busy with both ships, ferries and leisure craft. Cobh sticks out in my mind as the dodgeist proposal.

munchkin_utd

murphym7 wrote: »

<snip> also Cobh is extremely busy with both ships, ferries and leisure craft. Cobh sticks out in my mind as the dodgeist proposal.

I took the harbour tour there last August and there was shag all to speak of in the bay.
Theres a scattering of fishermen but on the whole theres vast areas with not much naval traffic to speak of. It really is a massive area and there wasnt even a handful of vessels in or around cobh
(noting also, theres a parking place for ships out to sea beyond roches point, so they only need to be in the bay on the way in and out!)

Cobh would actually be a first though if air services started there.
It'd be the FIRST "airport" with a functioning rail connection in Ireland (Belfast city is in the UK so doesnt count)

Mr Benevolent

Can't see this working. What kind of insane ideas do these people have up thier sleeves?

pclancy

Deja Vu. Wasnt there talk of a different seaplane startup before on the Shannon somewhere?

smellslikeshoes

I don't see why it wouldn't work, there would be a small market for touristy type flights to the west. As long as they don't go overboard with capacity or frequency I think it will be a moderately successful endeavour.

nag

Loch Lomond Seaplanes operate to a couple of destinations around Scotland, one of which is on the River Clyde in the heart of Glasgow. I don't see why this can't be replicated here on our rivers, whether it's commuter flights, tourist flights or something else. I wish them the best of luck and look forward to watching them taking off and landing on the Liffey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-PlkuRWOk4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s-rLiLpYuo

Alkers

nag wrote: »

Loch Lomond Seaplanes operate to a couple of destinations around Scotland, one of which is on the River Clyde in the heart of Glasgow. I don't see why this can't be replicated here on our rivers, whether it's commuter flights, tourist flights or something else.

The video you show is completely different to the River Liffey in Poolbeg.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=53.343826,-6.21676&num=1&t=h&sll=53.41291,-8.24389&sspn=3.473681,8.195801&ie=UTF8&ll=53.344185,-6.210473&spn=0.010325,0.027874&z=16

That's the clubhouse at Poolbeg, the river there where they're proposing to land is directly along the path of the P&O Liverpool service as well as being directly opposite the entrance so some of the deep-water berths. The approach/landing area is directly alongside a berth that is in daily use (opposite the end of Ocean pier) and the cranes are pictured fully upright in that picture (when in use they extend out over the channel).
If they were able to land West of the East-link it might be doable - would a seaplane fit under the bridge without having to open it?

murphym7

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I took the harbour tour there last August and there was shag all to speak of in the bay.
Theres a scattering of fishermen but on the whole theres vast areas with not much naval traffic to speak of. It really is a massive area and there wasnt even a handful of vessels in or around cobh
(noting also, theres a parking place for ships out to sea beyond roches point, so they only need to be in the bay on the way in and out!)

Cobh would actually be a first though if air services started there.
It'd be the FIRST "airport" with a functioning rail connection in Ireland (Belfast city is in the UK so doesnt count)

I have over 30 years on the water in Cork Harbour (yes it is a harbour, not a bay)

The "parking" area you refer to outside Roches point is actually called an Anchorage, and it is for large vessels - usually bound for Whitegate or Ringaskiddy.

The anchorage they should be worried about is the one between the spit bank and south of Spike island. This is more commonly used for the size of ship that heads to the city quays and Tivoli.

A one day tourist cruise around the harbour will never give the real picture of daily harbour operations.

At a minimum the harbour is full of yachts, dingys and motor boats on Saturdays and Sundays - plus 2 racing evenings a week, during the summer months.

You are correct in saying that the area of Cork harbour is massive, its the second biggest natural harbour in the world after Sydney. Major difference is that Sydney is also the deepest - Cork is very shallow in places, In fact the operations area in front of Cobh from half way on either tide is very shallow. So the big area you speak suddenly becomes a very narrow marked channel that everyone is squeezed into. This makes for a congested area - if the plane is going to be landing in front of Cobh, this now becomes an issue.

They could land over past the channel to the east - towards Aghada, but this will increase the taxi time to/from Cobh.

The last point I'll make is on the average sea state of Cork harbour - because of its size it can whip up some tasty waves - short in frequency. Calm days are great - I have seen many days where landing and taking off would be very uncomfortable, especially considering the plane they propose starting with.

jmayo

xflyer wrote: »

Well they originally had an agreement with Harbour Air Malta. But KOC knows about aviation and how to make money out of it. So not such a bad choice.

My point is that there is a difference between making money out of teaching people to fly, doing the odd jolly and making money out of an actual operation transporting people.
Especially when that operation is based on water.
The people with the best experience of this form of aviation are in the area Washington, BC, Alaska, etc.
They fly in sh**e weather and often operate out of not so ideal situations.

xflyer wrote: »

There is potential there and an opportunity. This has been noticed.

No LOL:cool:

Stop being coy, spill the beans
BTW are you connected with NFC ?

murphym7 wrote: »

That's a good point, one that I was thinking about yesterday. I was at sea for many years and would like to consider I know the rules of the road at sea. But I have never come across sea planes before. What are the rules of the road when it comes to planes landing and taking off at sea? Poolbeg has many ship movements, also Cobh is extremely busy with both ships, ferries and leisure craft. Cobh sticks out in my mind as the dodgeist proposal.

In the UK at least a seaplane pilot needs to know the rules of the road at sea.
And since most things IAA are linked or gleamed from CAA I presume the same would be the case here.
You can't just do as you want, you have to remember other people are out on the water as well.

murphym7 wrote: »

I have over 30 years on the water in Cork Harbour (yes it is a harbour, not a bay)
...

You are correct in saying that the area of Cork harbour is massive, its the second biggest natural harbour in the world after Sydney. Major difference is that Sydney is also the deepest - Cork is very shallow in places, In fact the operations area in front of Cobh from half way on either tide is very shallow.
...
The last point I'll make is on the average sea state of Cork harbour - because of its size it can whip up some tasty waves - short in frequency. Calm days are great - I have seen many days where landing and taking off would be very uncomfortable, especially considering the plane they propose starting with.

Floats do not require that deep a water source, but what they do require is an area clear of obstacles so they have to watch for sandbars, rocks, wrecks, etc.
Floatplanes operate in many relatively busy harbours, so I don't think that is going to be as big an issue as people think.
And yes they have to wait for the wake of passing ships, hell even jetskis, to die down if they are on takeoff or landing.

I do agree the sea conditions would be my question mark on this whole operation.
Galway Bay on windy day can be choppy so I presume with the other landing take off sites.

A C206, etc will not be able to operate in the conditions an DHC Otter or DHC Beaver can handle and it the C206 type they propose to get the operation going.