de horning cattle - no anesthetic

MungoMan

i know of a farmer who de horned cattle (sawed them off) without anesthetic

i thought it was a brutal thing to do in this day and age....i wouldnt approve of it.

Any thoughts, is the practice widespread, or is just the odd cowboy who does it ?

I'm sure its traumatic on the beast.

How much is anesthetic ? Can any farmer buy it ?

Jack C

Yeah, I know a couple in my area still at it. No excuse really as both could do them as calves when it's so much easier on man and beast.

whelan1

i think it is totally barbaric.... for the sake of a few bob getting the vet with anaesthetic- we are skulling 5 today , vet is doing them... dehorner was broke for a while when they where calves

MungoMan

whelan1 wrote: »

i think it is totally barbaric.... for the sake of a few bob getting the vet with anaesthetic- we are skulling 5 today , vet is doing them... dehorner was broke for a while when they where calves

Do only VETs have anaesthetic (I spelled anaesthetic wrong in my original post !)

Can anyone buy anaesthetic ? How much does it cost per beast ?
The farmer in question is completely au fait with how to inject a beast.

RobinBanks

MungoMan wrote: »

Do only VETs have anaesthetic (I spelled anaesthetic wrong in my original post !)

Can anyone buy anaesthetic ? How much does it cost per beast ?
The farmer in question is completely au fait with how to inject a beast.

Anyone can buy it. I get it from my local vet for dehorning the baby calves. see attached pic

tred

RobinBanks wrote: »

Anyone can buy it. I get it from my local vet for dehorning the baby calves. see attached pic

the bother of it as well......as in dehorning without anesthetic. We do them all as calves and use it here as well when burning off. Its actually easier to do them this way as well, less fighting and jumping around the crate! WE havent had to dehorn older ones in years, but we did use anesthetic and the wire for them i recall.

MungoMan

RobinBanks wrote: »

Anyone can buy it. I get it from my local vet for dehorning the baby calves. see attached pic

Thanks Robin
a quick check on the internet tells me its aroud 5 euro for 100ml


How many millilitres would you need per beast ?

mantua

For calves its around 5ml each side of the head but don't know how much for bigger cattle as we always dehorn at around 4 week old calves!

whelan1

looking at the vet doing them today , he was giving between 8 and 12 ml per side

cormywormy

In college they where saying, legally you have to give the calf anastetic if they are over 2 weeks old. We where giving them 2cc per side. And we where told its costs around 7 euro a bottle. The name escapes me at this point though.....

whelan1

is it norocaine ? i was holding the bottle in my hand this morning and cant remember

leg wax

whelan1 wrote: »

is it norocaine ? i was holding the bottle in my hand this morning and cant remember

mrs whelan will you come down 2moro and give my vet a hand ,i have 2 blonde heifers with big horns[i bought them with them on ] cant stand the job its years since had to do big horns.:mad:

vanderbadger

leg wax wrote: »

mrs whelan will you come down 2moro and give my vet a hand ,i have 2 blonde heifers with big horns[i bought them with them on ] cant stand the job its years since had to do big horns.:mad:

i had a 2 yr old bullock a few years back that was a lunatic, he had 1 huge horn, he was in the skulling gate and had gotten a sedative also, he still went berserk, thought he would take gate off, vet pretty much refused to do him..had to get another vet who had an immobilizer..now i know these things are banned and im not saying they should be used now but the animal would have either killed himself or killed someone else, this way it was over in under a min id say and the beast walked out of crush after not a bother. the first vet reckoned his heart would have given out if we continued by the way, thats how crazy he went when caught in the gate..

Bodacious

whelan1 wrote: »

is it norocaine ? i was holding the bottle in my hand this morning and cant remember

Yep "Norocaine" 100ml €5.50 in my local chemist but i think they saying now that you have to go to the vet for it!! Can get it in the North over the counter anyway or farmrite may even send it to you at similar money.

Says 7ml per site but i give it acoording to the size of animal ie ig 700kg cow 12-14mls and spread it about i.e withdraw a little and release and again. Always pull back on the needle to ensure you are not in a vein. 28day withdrawal for meat 28days, milk 7days.

whelan1

leg wax wrote: »

mrs whelan will you come down 2moro and give my vet a hand ,i have 2 blonde heifers with big horns[i bought them with them on ] cant stand the job its years since had to do big horns.:mad:

is the pay good?

leg wax

whelan1 wrote: »

is the pay good?

its all about the company not the price;)

whelan1

leg wax wrote: »

its all about the company not the price;)

MungoMan

Bodacious wrote: »

Yep "Norocaine" 100ml €5.50 in my local chemist but i think they saying now that you have to go to the vet for it!! Can get it in the North over the counter anyway or farmrite may even send it to you at similar money.

Says 7ml per site but i give it acoording to the size of animal ie ig 700kg cow 12-14mls and spread it about i.e withdraw a little and release and again. Always pull back on the needle to ensure you are not in a vein. 28day withdrawal for meat 28days, milk 7days.

Has anyone managed to buy it in a pharmacy in the south ?

Bizzum

MungoMan wrote: »

Has anyone managed to buy it in a pharmacy in the south ?

You can buy Adrenacaine from your Vet. I've used it and it works.

Lizard_Moon

Norocaine, Norbrook, is Vet use only and cannot be sold to anyone other than vets.

Adrenacaine (procaine), Norbrook, 100ml bottle available from your vet.

We have to specially import the Adrenacaine from the North under licence so I am not sure if it would be available under prescription from a chemist.

5ml per horn for debudding. Not sure about bigger as I use the Norocaine.

I hate dehorning as it eats time but I will do it all the same.

Horrible setup tomorrow to dehorn

whelan1

robbed the leaflet out of the box that was in the bin from vet today... 7ml max injection per site , be careful not to inject in to the vein, norocaine

Muckit

Is all this injecting of young calves really necessary or beneficial (under2wks)??

jeff greene

Muckit wrote: »

Is all this injecting of young calves really necessary or beneficial (under2wks)??

Under two weeks is debatable, its like getting aesthetic yourself for a few stitches, I had to get 3 stitches after cutting my knuckles when a wrench slipped and she gave me 3 or 4 japs of aesthetic, which I reckon would be the same as a stitch.

whelan1

jeff greene wrote: »

Under two weeks is debatable, its like getting aesthetic yourself for a few stitches, I had to get 3 stitches after cutting my knuckles when a wrench slipped and she gave me 3 or 4 japs of aesthetic, which I reckon would be the same as a stitch.

i got 3 stitches in my arm with no anaesthetic :eek:caught my arm between bar of crush and a cow

leg wax

just if from doing my 2 heifers vet did them gave them something to make them sleepy as well they were like easy to do then,how the fock i am going to get the cable ties off them tommorow i dont know.no blood no pain now so happy with the job.

whelan1

we did nt use any cable ties yesterday.... only ever used them if there was a bleeder, we are prone to getting bleeders here , touch wood we had none yesterday

reilig

Our vet will pull the veins to stop the bleeding. Thankfully we haven't had to scull one in a few years. Usually get all calves at under 2 weeks with the gas dehorner.

leg wax - its better to use baler twine than cable ties - at least you can cut it with a knife easily when the animal has his head down eating a bit of meal

jeff greene

reilig wrote: »

leg wax - its better to use baler twine than cable ties - at least you can cut it with a knife easily when the animal has his head down eating a bit of meal

On the odd one we do, we use big elastic bands, works very well. Snip off with a scissors next day.

irishh_bob

Jack C wrote: »

Yeah, I know a couple in my area still at it. No excuse really as both could do them as calves when it's so much easier on man and beast.

always found skulling much quicker and easier , dehorning is a very slow job and the crate used is a near death trap for some calves , they are tightly trapped , guy that skulls our cattle uses an electrical gizmo which freezes the calves brain so the animal is temporarily stunned while being skulled

Lizard_Moon

irishh_bob wrote: »

always found skulling much quicker and easier , dehorning is a very slow job and the crate used is a near death trap for some calves , they are tightly trapped , guy that skulls our cattle uses an electrical gizmo which freezes the calves brain so the animal is temporarily stunned while being skulled

Immobiliser, that stuns them, is banned. No pain relief with stunner unless anaesthetic used also. All it does is prevent them moving.. brutal. Debudding crates usually safe if calves not left alone.

I pull the vessels to stop bleeding, top them off with gas debudder if seeping and sedate most cattle for dehorning, makes job simple for me then!

Jack C

irishh_bob wrote: »

always found skulling much quicker and easier , dehorning is a very slow job and the crate used is a near death trap for some calves , they are tightly trapped , guy that skulls our cattle uses an electrical gizmo which freezes the calves brain so the animal is temporarily stunned while being skulled

Your own brain must have got a touch of that "gizmo" if you think skulling without anesthetic is easier.

irishh_bob

Jack C wrote: »

Your own brain must have got a touch of that "gizmo" if you think skulling without anesthetic is easier.

takes about twenty seconds to skull a weanling , takes about five mins to dehorn a calf between dragging him into the crate , clamping down his head , injecting him with anasthetic and then dehorning him while at the same time , making sure the dehorner stays hot enough

dar31

irishh_bob wrote: »

takes about twenty seconds to skull a weanling , takes about five mins to dehorn a calf between dragging him into the crate , clamping down his head , injecting him with anasthetic and then dehorning him while at the same time , making sure the dehorner stays hot enough

so the weanling is ready and waiting when you arrive to skull it, and how many people is involved in skulling.

id usually miss a few with the dehorner every year and end up having to skull them with a guilitione,

once set up we would get through about 1 a minute with 2 people, this would include black leg, and check for extra teats.

Bizzum

Two points:
The use of the electronic immobilizer is illegal.
Skulling cattle without anaesthetic is illegal.

Anyone that is serious about animal husbandry has to be trying to minimise the amount of calves getting through the loop to the stage where they require skulling.

If it's down to comparing both acts alone on the basis of the time it takes, you really want to be asking yourself some questions. The right thing to do isn't always the quickest.

AtillaTheHun

we avoid skulling and we debud under 2wks.
but for how many years was skulling practices without anaesthetic:rolleyes:.

have seen an immobiliser in action before. I'd like the policy makers to stand behind a strong bull calf for a castration!!! i thought it looked a very good job! tin hat on:D

Bizzum

AtillaTheHun wrote: »

we avoid skulling and we debud under 2wks.
but for how many years was skulling practices without anaesthetic:rolleyes:.

We have all moved on, or should have from this, just as dentists and surgeons have!

have seen an immobiliser in action before. I'd like the policy makers to stand behind a strong bull calf for a castration!!! i thought it looked a very good job! tin hat on:D

I stand behind a fair few strong bulls and I wouldn't use an immoblizer even if it was legal.

It could be a suit of armour ya need if you keep posting like that!:D

Bodacious

reilig wrote: »

Our vet will pull the veins to stop the bleeding. Thankfully we haven't had to scull one in a few years. Usually get all calves at under 2 weeks with the gas dehorner.

leg wax - its better to use baler twine than cable ties - at least you can cut it with a knife easily when the animal has his head down eating a bit of meal

Hay string gets better grip at base of the horn but you have to feed it back inside and tie knots etc and if it slips you have to undo whole thing and retighten

Heavy duty cable tie doesn't get under the base of the horn or get grip as good or as close as the string.

Solution - a combination of the two!! i form 2 loops at either end of single short length of haystring and protrude one out under or just past each horn base and have heavy duty black cable tie acting as a ratchet at front of forehead, any drop of blood just pull cable tie no retying etc

Plus as at front of forehead cable tie is easily accessible to snip off using garden pruner, scissors or whatever up under it as its on the double and its not tight to the head as it is the string that is tight under the horns!:)

Just my experience but it works for me

manjou

Use polled bulls. There are polled cattle in evey breed so why cant breeders and ai companies use them it only takes one generation to get polled gene. Bought a polled simmental a few years ago comfort since alot less dehorning to do.

irishh_bob

manjou wrote: »

Use polled bulls. There are polled cattle in evey breed so why cant breeders and ai companies use them it only takes one generation to get polled gene. Bought a polled simmental a few years ago comfort since alot less dehorning to do.

do the A.I companys advertise bulls which are polled , havent seen it ?

jeff greene

irishh_bob wrote: »

do the A.I companys advertise bulls which are polled , havent seen it ?

In holsteins, Eurogene offer Lawn Boy P http://www.icbf.com/taurus/bull_search/index.php?search_type=name&search=Lawn+Boy+P&submit=Search

There are many others too.

whelan1

buy an angus , will save you alot of hassle , i know where there are some for sale:rolleyes:

leg wax

well i got the cable ties off without any trouble at all used the garden shears as was advised on here and got the off at very first go on each animal so its cable ties for me the next time and that will be a long time hopefully.

stanflt

lads and ladys i only use 2.5ml on each bud-and never a problem-do calves at 5-6weeks of age-

how could anyone skull or dehorn with out injection-its pure cruelty
have you never noticed a calf that wasnt injected properly-now imagine that was your skull


last year we had to skull a few cows who were badly budded as calves-they hadnt much of a horn but it just needed to be tidied up- gave them 10cc in each horn and then the saw-used the heat debudder to stop the blood flow along with some talken powder

leg wax

stanflt wrote: »

lads and ladys i only use 2.5ml on each bud-and never a problem-do calves at 5-6weeks of age-

how could anyone skull or dehorn with injection-its pure cruelty
have you never noticed a calf that wasnt injected properly-now imagine that was your skull


last year we had to skull a few cows who were badly budded as calves-they hadnt much of a horn but it just needed to be tidied up- gave them 10cc in each horn and then the saw-used the heat debudder to stop the blood flow along with some talken powder

are you telling me i am cruel for takeing off horns with injection but its alright for you to do it.or did you leave out the word out

stanflt

leg wax wrote: »

are you telling me i am cruel for takeing off horns with injection but its alright for you to do it.or did you leave out the word out

sorry left a word out-tired long day-and have to go down and check a springer later

leg wax

stanflt wrote: »

sorry left a word out-tired long day-and have to go down and check a springer later

get a camera and watch her from bed :D