Grand National

kevin99

Having watched as two horses were fatally injured in last Saturday's Grand National at Aintree, Liverpool I believe now is the time for that race to be banned.
To see the screens placed around two hapless horses, while the racing commentators didn't even mention them is sickening and typical of BBC coverage.
It took Claire Balding, daughter or niece of either Toby or Ian Balding, both racehorse trainers, to mention in passing the sad fatalties of the two horses as she closed BBC's live coverage. I understand why none of the BBC commentators referred to the two incidents during their live commentaries as they wouldn't have known the horses had been fatally injured.
However, when the two other commentators, reviewed the race they failed to mention the screen around the two stricken horses. They even explained what was meant by officials waving chequered flags. They referred to the arrows on the fences that were to be bypassed. But they blithely ignored the two horses fatally injured. Shame. Not just shame on the presenters, but also the producers who could have told them to refer to what had happened.
Probably afraid to upset the Jockey Club and the racing fraternity.
Let's not forget that unfortunate Irish jockey who was seriously injured in a fall at Aintree. Peter Toole, I think is his name. Hopefully, he will make a full recovery.
It is cruel and barbaric to make a horse jump 30 odd fences at such a pace in the searng heat.
Just look at the physical condition of the winning horse. He couldn't even walk to the winner's enclosure he was so tired and dehydrated.
To see the stablelads and girls throwing buckets of water over him to help the animal recover was sickening.
I'd like opinions of other please.
I for one won't be supporting Punchestow, nor Fairyhouse at Easter.

Borderfox

Statement from the British Horse Racing board

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/grand-national/

Censorsh!t

Definitely agree. I didnt see the race, but i've been pretty against racing for some years now.
Yes, i believe it is a risk sport, but the risk in the grand national is overwhelming. And the horses are not the ones consenting to it.

The racing industry is all about money, the horses are merely tools. Yeah, some of these people may have a love for horses, but in races like these, their love for money comes out on top.

I dont think its fair to say "if a horse doesnt want to run/jump he wont". These horses are obviously going to run if all the horses around them are. They are flight animals.

And the jockey who placed first even though he excessively used the whip?? What is the point in having rules that are there for the welfare of the animals if they are going to be broken and nothing done.

kevin99

Borderfox wrote: »

Statement from the British Horse Racing board

http://www.britishhorseracing.com/grand-national/

And what is your point? I read the statement.
It didn't address any of the concerns raised by me in my posting.
The BBC's flagrant decision to ignore the injuries to the horses during and post-race analysis.
It is always the same with equestrian types.
If there is a fatality they close ranks, say nothing and hope people go away.
I am aware of severe cruelty to horses who wouldn't jump for trainers. I have seen thrashings of horses who 'misbehaved' by their owners.
It is sickening.
That poor horse who won was in a near-collapse state. Yet the commentators, instead of pointing this out simply said the buckets of water thrown over the horse would revive him.
What if the horse collapsed and died of a heart attack as he was accompanied back to the winning enclosure.
What would the racing people say? what woud Clare Balding say? And Mick Fitzgerald and the rest of the 'gang' that support this race?
I'd like to see the apologists for the national be made run a 4 mile steeplechase and be whipped by their masters driving alongside them. They wouldn't be allowed slow down or refuse to jump one of the steeplechase fences.
I'd love to see Balding and the rest as they cross the finish line.
The 'National is cruel and sickening. It should be banned or run on the flat.

kevin99

Censorsh!t wrote: »

Definitely agree. I didnt see the race, but i've been pretty against racing for some years now.
Yes, i believe it is a risk sport, but the risk in the grand national is overwhelming. And the horses are not the ones consenting to it.

The racing industry is all about money, the horses are merely tools. Yeah, some of these people may have a love for horses, but in races like these, their love for money comes out on top.

I dont think its fair to say "if a horse doesnt want to run/jump he wont". These horses are obviously going to run if all the horses around them are. They are flight animals.

And the jockey who placed first even though he excessively used the whip?? What is the point in having rules that are there for the welfare of the animals if they are going to be broken and nothing done.

I thought it was either Ted Walshe's daughter or Nina Carberry banned for six days for over use of the whip.

Why not turn the Grand National into a 4+mile flat race? That way horses have a better chance of avoiding horrific injuries.

convert

kevin99 wrote: »

And what is your point? I read the statement.
It didn't address any of the concerns raised by me in my posting.

If you'd read the statement in detail you'd see that it did actually address at least one of the concerns raised in your initial post:

To see the stablelads and girls throwing buckets of water over him to help the animal recover was sickening.

convert

kevin99 wrote: »

I thought it was either Ted Walshe's [sic] daughter or Nina Carberry banned for six days for over use of the whip.

Katie Walsh didn't have a ride in the National this year - a quick look at the card would have told you that. The winning jockey received a ban for overuse of the whip, I didn't hear anything about Nina's ban. Have you got a link to Nina's ban for overuse of the whip? And what race it related to?

Why not turn the Grand National into a 4+mile flat race? That way horses have a better chance of avoiding horrific injuries.

Because then it wouldn't be the grand national, it'd be just another flat race.

Oh, and FYI, horses get injured on the flat, too.

And there's also a large number of horses who get hurt while in the stable or fields at home, with no rider on them, and that's through no fault of the owners/trainers.

kevin99

convert wrote: »

If you'd read the statement in detail you'd see that it did actually address at least one of the concerns raised in your initial post:

I did read the statement in detail. Full of spin. Talking about the attendance and millions who watch the race around the world. Wow.
Next par, how much it means to racing and the wider equestrian industry.
next par, owners and trainers would be affected if the race was stopped.
and so on and so,

where is the consideration for the horse?
You can have all the vets, etc on hand.
But the horses are forced to run in a race that has been proved to be a sickening spectacle of Man's inhumanity to beast.

TheMilkyPirate

kevin99 wrote: »

Having watched as two horses were fatally injured in last Saturday's Grand National at Aintree, Liverpool I believe now is the time for that race to be banned.
To see the screens placed around two hapless horses, while the racing commentators didn't even mention them is sickening and typical of BBC coverage.
It took Claire Balding, daughter or niece of either Toby or Ian Balding, both racehorse trainers, to mention in passing the sad fatalties of the two horses as she closed BBC's live coverage. I understand why none of the BBC commentators referred to the two incidents during their live commentaries as they wouldn't have known the horses had been fatally injured.
However, when the two other commentators, reviewed the race they failed to mention the screen around the two stricken horses. They even explained what was meant by officials waving chequered flags. They referred to the arrows on the fences that were to be bypassed. But they blithely ignored the two horses fatally injured. Shame. Not just shame on the presenters, but also the producers who could have told them to refer to what had happened.
Probably afraid to upset the Jockey Club and the racing fraternity.
Let's not forget that unfortunate Irish jockey who was seriously injured in a fall at Aintree. Peter Toole, I think is his name. Hopefully, he will make a full recovery.
It is cruel and barbaric to make a horse jump 30 odd fences at such a pace in the searng heat.
Just look at the physical condition of the winning horse. He couldn't even walk to the winner's enclosure he was so tired and dehydrated.
To see the stablelads and girls throwing buckets of water over him to help the animal recover was sickening.
I'd like opinions of other please.
I for one won't be supporting Punchestow, nor Fairyhouse at Easter.

It isn't mentioned in the race commentary because they are covering the actual race not side events, I understand where you are coming from but that is the way horse race commentary works the sport moves too fast to take the consensus off the race.

Claire balding did not "mention in passing" about the horse fatalities she could barely go on with her coverage obviously visibly shook and didn't show any happy emotions whatsoever. She loves horses along with everyone in the horse racing game, From the trainers to the owners to the grooms to the head lads and lassies. It is their life.

Race horses are bred to jump and race, Have you never noticed when a horse falls it will continue to run around the track on it's own jumping the fences. Seeing stable lads throw buckets of water over the horses was sickening? What are you on about, Would you rather they didn't give them any water at all? What happens a long distance runner at the end of a marathon he gets water, Same with horses.

Your going on as if nobody in the horse racing scene cares about the fatal accidents, But they do, We all do. Go onto the racingpost website and nearly every story is about either the fatalities or the condition of the injured jockeys. Even the comments below the grand national review, Every second one is a tribute to the horses.

Stop acting as if we are barbarians who don't love horses when it's so blatantly not true.

kevin99

convert wrote: »

Katie Walsh didn't have a ride in the National this year - a quick look at the card would have told you that. The winning jockey received a ban for overuse of the whip, I didn't hear anything about Nina's ban. Have you got a link to Nina's ban for overuse of the whip? And what race it related to?



Because then it wouldn't be the grand national, it'd be just another flat race.

Oh, and FYI, horses get injured on the flat, too.

And there's also a large number of horses who get hurt while in the stable or fields at home, with no rider on them, and that's through no fault of the owners/trainers.

One of the Irish girls was given a ban on the day. I am nearly sure it was Ted's daughter.

There is less chance of a horse being injured on the flat than over jumps -FACT.
Agreed horses may injured themselves at home. But at least they are not being forced to race at speed over fences where there is a greater chance of them falling, injuring themselves or even being killed as happened last Saturday in the Grand National.

Answer this: Do you consider the Grand National to be a fair race to horses?
Do you support BBC Television Sport's coverage of the aftermath of the race when they didn't mention the injuries to the horses and subsequent deaths? Balding made fleeting reference to the fatalities when wrapping up the coverage, when most viewers switched over.
She as the main presenter should have referred to the injuries to those horses immediatly the race was over. Fitzgerald and the other guy should be sacked by the BEEB for ignoring what had happened.

TheMilkyPirate

kevin99 wrote: »

One of the Irish girls was given a ban on the day. I am nearly sure it was Ted's daughter.

There is less chance of a horse being injured on the flat than over jumps -FACT.
Agreed horses may injured themselves at home. But at least they are not being forced to race at speed over fences where there is a greater chance of them falling, injuring themselves or even being killed as happened last Saturday in the Grand National.

Answer this: Do you consider the Grand National to be a fair race to horses?

Katie walsh did not have a ride in the national this has already been pointed out to you.

notsobusy

To be honest I think that all sports should be banned if you think racing should be banned. Surely it's wrong to make kids run in the heat when they are playing soccer or competing in Athletics.....

karlram

do you want all jump racing banned or just the grand national?

MDFM

kevin99 wrote: »

One of the Irish girls was given a ban on the day. I am nearly sure it was Ted's daughter.

There is less chance of a horse being injured on the flat than over jumps -FACT.
Agreed horses may injured themselves at home. But at least they are not being forced to race at speed over fences where there is a greater chance of them falling, injuring themselves or even being killed as happened last Saturday in the Grand National.

Answer this: Do you consider the Grand National to be a fair race to horses?
Do you support BBC Television Sport's coverage of the aftermath of the race when they didn't mention the injuries to the horses and subsequent deaths? Balding made fleeting reference to the fatalities when wrapping up the coverage, when most viewers switched over.
She as the main presenter should have referred to the injuries to those horses immediatly the race was over. Fitzgerald and the other guy should be sacked by the BEEB for ignoring what had happened.

Why? Did u watch the race? It was fairly obvious watching it that there were 2 incidents at 2 separate fences - as a spectator, it was plain to see that 2 horses went down, unfortunately - i didnt need the commentator to tell me that. the screens/covers over the horses plus the fact the 2 fences in question had to be by-passed were a certain give away that something serious had happened, it didnt take a genius to figure that one out.

Borderfox

notsobusy wrote: »

To be honest I think that all sports should be banned if you think racing should be banned. Surely it's wrong to make kids run in the heat when they are playing soccer or competing in Athletics.....

Horses dont have a choice in what they do

National Hunt racing is as dangerous as the Grand National, at one meeting in Leopardstown I was covering two Horse died at one fence in one race, point to point I would class as the same risk. Eventing is not without its dangers and I have seen Polo ponies drop dead of exhaustion. It is shameful how animals die and nothing is said about it, I see these athletes coming past me on the way to the start die during the race and then nothing in the on track commentary/TV/radio/News. For myself I wouldnt miss racing if it was to go but I am sure the big hitters would try there best to keep it going.

Personally I have never witnessed a death at a flat race meet.

fits

I love National Hunt racing but I really find the Grand National distasteful and watching it is akin to the colloseum in my opinion.

They could take 15 nags out of the race and not impact on the quality of it. Having at least ten horses of odds over 66/1 is just crazy. They have no chance of competing and shouldnt be in the race. And they're a danger to the other horses who have a right to be there.

karlram

mon mome won it in 2009 at odds of 100/1
it,ll never be banned ar changed in a major way. they did make the fences safer in recent years. they made them smaller and softer so it was easier on the horses. its THE biggest money spinner for NHR. and in my opinion if you dont like it dont watch it. if NHR was banned then a major porportion of horses would have to be slaughtered in ireland and england. wwould ye rather that a small percentage of horse die that way each year or would ye rather 40-50% of horses be slaughtered because you dont agree with it? this is what horses are bred for. i love racing and everything equine and hate to see horses die but its better having them than not. just accept that there will be sad losses. i bet some of ye are complaining are wearing leather shoes or hae leather in some way shape or form in you possesion but your not writing about the fact millions are slaughtered every year for you to do haveit. and your probably not all vegetarians either and if you arent why arent you complaining about the slaugher of all the animals that you consume everyday? me thinks theres a few hypocrites here

fits

^ and I bet the connections had an idea of the horses ability and hid it from view.

kevin99

karlram wrote: »

mon mome won it in 2009 at odds of 100/1
it,ll never be banned ar changed in a major way. they did make the fences safer in recent years. they made them smaller and softer so it was easier on the horses. its THE biggest money spinner for NHR. and in my opinion if you dont like it dont watch it. if NHR was banned then a major porportion of horses would have to be slaughtered in ireland and england. wwould ye rather that a small percentage of horse die that way each year or would ye rather 40-50% of horses be slaughtered because you dont agree with it? this is what horses are bred for. i love racing and everything equine and hate to see horses die but its better having them than not. just accept that there will be sad losses. i bet some of ye are complaining are wearing leather shoes or hae leather in some way shape or form in you possesion but your not writing about the fact millions are slaughtered every year for you to do haveit. and your probably not all vegetarians either and if you arent why arent you complaining about the slaugher of all the animals that you consume everyday? me thinks theres a few hypocrites here

Don't play the slaughtering card here.
The Grand National is a dangerous race for horses.
All racing should be banned.
A horse cannot tell its owner it doesn't want to race.
It is cruel and degrading on horses to have to partake in racing for the pleasure of humans.
Would you like to be forced to run a 10k mini marathon with a guy slapping you on the backside with a whip to keep you running at a particular speed?
Answer that.

Esroh

kevin99 wrote: »

Don't play the slaughtering card here.
The Grand National is a dangerous race for horses.
All racing should be banned.
A horse cannot tell its owner it doesn't want to race.
It is cruel and degrading on horses to have to partake in racing for the pleasure of humans.
Would you like to be forced to run a 10k mini marathon with a guy slapping you on the backside with a whip to keep you running at a particular speed?
Answer that.

Kevin
I have held back from posting in this thread since your first post but now see your true agenda.
So Can I ask you a few questions first.
I will also ignore the Slaughter issue.

1) Do you have any personal connection with Horses, ie do you ride at all.
2) If YES have you ever had the pleasure of riding a horse at speed upside another.
3)If NO how can you say Horses cannot tell you they do not want to race.


Why is it degrading for horses to race
I have 2 retired Race Horses both aged 11, A Connemara Pony aged16 and a 15 year old Sports Horse who has Showjumped, Evented, Hunted and done Dressage.
They race each other everyday.Sometimes on the spur of the moment, other times to see who get feed first. Its a Natural instinct. Put any 2 Equines from the 10 hand pony to the best bred Thoroughbred together and they will race each other.

Re the Whip
No Horse is beaten with a stick for the 4miles+ of the Grand National or any other race on any race track around the world.
The whip is used in a finish but there are rules and yes they are broken at times.
But the Jockeys are Jockeys because they have an affinity with Horses and are able to get them to run not to beat the arse of them.

kevin99

Esroh wrote: »

Kevin
I have held back from posting in this thread since your first post but now see your true agenda.
So Can I ask you a few questions first.
I will also ignore the Slaughter issue.

1) Do you have any personal connection with Horses, ie do you ride at all.
2) If YES have you ever had the pleasure of riding a horse at speed upside another.
3)If NO how can you say Horses cannot tell you they do not want to race.


Why is it degrading for horses to race
I have 2 retired Race Horses both aged 11, A Connemara Pony aged16 and a 15 year old Sports Horse who has Showjumped, Evented, Hunted and done Dressage.
They race each other everyday.Sometimes on the spur of the moment, other times to see who get feed first. Its a Natural instinct. Put any 2 Equines from the 10 hand pony to the best bred Thoroughbred together and they will race each other.

Re the Whip
No Horse is beaten with a stick for the 4miles+ of the Grand National or any other race on any race track around the world.
The whip is used in a finish but there are rules and yes they are broken at times.
But the Jockeys are Jockeys because they have an affinity with Horses and are able to get them to run not to beat the arse of them.

Yes i ride out. I enjoy it. I enjoy cantering and galloping across fields and on the nearby beach.
Excessive use of the whip happens all the time. The 'Nationl's winning jockey was banned for five days.
Answer my question: Would you like to be made to run a 10k race and be whipping to keep up the pace?

Ave Sodalis

kevin99 wrote: »

Yes i ride out. I enjoy it. I enjoy cantering and galloping across fields and on the nearby beach.
Excessive use of the whip happens all the time. The 'Nationl's winning jockey was banned for five days.
Answer my question: Would you like to be made to run a 10k race and be whipping to keep up the pace?

You could also argue that the horse doesn't want to jump, gallop, canter, trot or even walk on command... If it wants to stop, it will stop.

Yes, excessive whip usage happens but there is punishment for it. A 5 day ban can mean a lot to a jockey who is on and off horses all day everyday.

Answer to your question: If I could run 10k, and if I had adequate training then yes. I don't see why not but you are misjudging the distances. 5 miles to a horse is about 3 miles to us, not 10k/6mile. As for the whip, horses are must stronger than us. If they really didn't want to race, they wouldn't. If you think about it, if a horse take off or wants to do its own thing, even with a whip, we have very little control over it.

average_runner

If you ban horse racing, horse racing will under ground and the horses will treated alot worst. Would you be happy with that?

Currently horses are well looked after by their owners.

kevin99

average_runner wrote: »

If you ban horse racing, horse racing will under ground and the horses will treated alot worst. Would you be happy with that?

Currently horses are well looked after by their owners.

How would horses run underground?

Ave Sodalis

kevin99 wrote: »

How would horses run underground?

I don't think that was literal. I think it meant that races will be run in secret and with that, few rules will apply. If rules are broken, who are they going to tell as racing would be banned...

RasTa

kevin99 wrote: »

Would you like to be forced to run a 10k mini marathon with a guy slapping you on the backside with a whip to keep you running at a particular speed?
Answer that.

Do I have to run on all 4's? I would want something the equivalent of a jockey to a horse so invent that human for me.

Esroh

kevin99 wrote: »

Yes i ride out. I enjoy it. I enjoy cantering and galloping across fields and on the nearby beach.Have you never felt the natural will to be infront of the horse you are riding
Excessive use of the whip happens all the time. The 'Nationl's winning jockey was banned for five days.
Answer my question: Would you like to be made to run a 10k race and be whipping to keep up the pace?

To answer your question

I would not like to be hit to keep up with the pace in a 10km but no horse in a race is hit to keep up with the pace for the whole race its against the rules. Its against the rules in Showjumping, Eventing and Endurance as well
Stop making out that a jockey is constantly hitting a horse during any race.
Re the winning Jockey in the Grand National(having watched the race again) I can see he did not use his whip until after the 2nd last which is inside the last half mile. He broke the rules by hitting the horse more than the 10 allowed after the last fence. Thats what he got banned for not beating him around the whole 4 miles 885 yard
To the untrained eye a Jockey may look like he is hitting the horse all the way to the finish The whip is swung in rhythm with the movement for most of the run in but the horse is not hit everytime .Look at any head on view of a race finish.

Are you in favour of banning Advanced Eventing where horses jump 30 + jumping efforts which are built on all sorts of terrain a and do not let a horse brush thru the top of them and are actually higher than most of the GN fences. The speed would be 3/4 of Race pace

Or the Hickstead Derby where there are 30+ efforts some of which are 6ft+

AngeGal

Them horses would do the same to us given the chance.

silverfox88

average_runner wrote: »

If you ban horse racing, horse racing will under ground and the horses will treated alot worst. Would you be happy with that?

Currently horses are well looked after by their owners.

good point, hadnt thought of that actually!

not the biggest fan of racing myself, but i really dont feel i can make a fuss about given i showjump, hunt and hunter trial - they're ALL risky for the horse! i do agree about the horses with ridiculously longshot odds, they most likely are endangering other horses and riders not to mention the horses themselves.
i have had a 6 year old ex-racehorse myself and the comment about the horse not being able to tell you it doesnt want to race is not entirely true - the whole reason that Holly was retired from the racing scene was because she lacked the "killer instinct"- she loved the run but didnt have the drive to be first all the time; i think this is a fairly good indication that jockeys and trainers are fully aware of which horses "want" to race and which ones do not.

mrkiscool2

OK, time for a sporting nut who has worked in a Veteniary to jump in here. (pardon the pun)

I'm sorry, but these horses are RACEHORSES i.e. they are meant to race, not be stuck in a field somewhere. You see the racehorses that go to stud in the national stud (I'm a kildare man and have worked with horses) and they aren't as happy as horses that race. Why? Because it's their natural instinct to race. And whoever said that only 40-50% would be slaughtered if horseracing is banned is right, but it'd be higher, more like 60-75%, seeing as they are only fit for horseracing. Also, think of the amount of jobs that the grand national alone makes, between 200-300, stable hands, trainers, jockeys, you name it. So it's good for people to. Also, 5 horses died at this years entire Aintree festival, out of 300! Like, its the biggest amount of fatalties a year, and its still less then 2%! And plus, they die doing what they love, racing, could you ask for anything better? Dying doing what you love? Sure what about all the sportspeople who have died on th pitch or track, wouldn't you love to be like thm, dying doing what you love?See, I have a problem with you so-called "animal lovers" and thats because you think that all animals (including humans) should be equal and stuff, and thats it's not natural to kill other animals. But it is, we are omnivores and top of the food-chain for a reason! Like, as vet assistant, I have seen the crulety some animals are put through by neglence, but I have also seen cruelty through love, like making them wear fabrics which they are allergic too, over-feeding. I have seen spoilt animals to! Like, ye are actually no worse then the neglent ones to be honest, you're just blisfully ignorant of your cruelty

finbarrk

kevin99 wrote: »

Yes i ride out. I enjoy it. I enjoy cantering and galloping across fields and on the nearby beach.
Excessive use of the whip happens all the time. The 'Nationl's winning jockey was banned for five days.
Answer my question: Would you like to be made to run a 10k race and be whipping to keep up the pace?

Be carefull with that galloping. Your horse could break his leg. You should stick to walking and trotting I think.