Clamping on Private property

beebaw

i like in a rather large estate where clamping is being introducted as a bullying tactic from the managment company in order for householders to pay their fees, so basically we have lived in our house for the past 5 years, parked outside our door in a space that we have occupied for the duration and in our lease it states that we have the use of 1.5 spaces.
Now the managment company are implementing a clamping policy where if you do not pay your fees you will not get a parking permit so hence we will not be able to park outside our house.
So what i want to know is if my car gets clamped do i have a right to remove the clamp by whatever means as i did not give permission to anybody to interfere with my car which is private property.

HellFireClub

beebaw wrote: »

i like in a rather large estate where clamping is being introducted as a bullying tactic from the managment company in order for householders to pay their fees, so basically we have lived in our house for the past 5 years, parked outside our door in a space that we have occupied for the duration and in our lease it states that we have the use of 1.5 spaces.
Now the managment company are implementing a clamping policy where if you do not pay your fees you will not get a parking permit so hence we will not be able to park outside our house.
So what i want to know is if my car gets clamped do i have a right to remove the clamp by whatever means as i did not give permission to anybody to interfere with my car which is private property.

I can't speak for the legalities of the situation but I imagine any such move would represent a major escalation of what is clearly a worsening dispute and would only serve to cement the resolve of residents to confront such childish behaviour.

DUB777

beebaw wrote: »

i like in a rather large estate where clamping is being introducted as a bullying tactic from the managment company in order for householders to pay their fees, so basically we have lived in our house for the past 5 years, parked outside our door in a space that we have occupied for the duration and in our lease it states that we have the use of 1.5 spaces.
Now the managment company are implementing a clamping policy where if you do not pay your fees you will not get a parking permit so hence we will not be able to park outside our house.
So what i want to know is if my car gets clamped do i have a right to remove the clamp by whatever means as i did not give permission to anybody to interfere with my car which is private property.

Tell them to take a long walk off a short pier, buy yourself 4 clamps park like a granny & utilize your 1.5 spaces. There was a thread on clamping there not so long ago, have a look at that. It might be of some help to you. You can remove the clamp using a bolt cutters, just be sure you have a new lock with the keys to hand back to them if you do decide to give them the clamp back.

beebaw

yes i fully intend to do cut the lock with a bolt cutters. I dont see what is wrong with this as per my previous post i did not give anybody any permission to interfere with my car when it is parked on private property. This is technically like putting a barricade against the front door of you house.

Paulw

Try paying your management fees, which is your legal responsibility.

Damaging a clamp (cutting it off) can result in legal action being taken against you for criminal damage.

Technically, it is not your property, it's the property of the management company. So, they are well within their powers to bring in clamping.

DUB777

Paulw wrote: »

Try paying your management fees, which is your legal responsibility.

Damaging a clamp (cutting it off) can result in legal action being taken against you for criminal damage.

Technically, it is not your property, it's the property of the management company. So, they are well within their powers to bring in clamping.

Hense the reason I said to have a new lock and keys to hand back with the clamp, unless you plan to dispose of it permanently. p155 them off by parking like a granny and making optimum use of your extra .5 parking space.

Paulw

DUB777 wrote: »

making optimum use of your extra .5 parking space.

Again, it's not "your space". It's the management company's space. They own it. You only have use of it.

PCPhoto

could you put up a sign on your driveway - indicating that any unauthorised tresspassing will be prosecuted - and give indications of those exempt (postman, delivery persons, gardai and emergency services, family members friends, neighbours etc....actual persons who know the occupants of the house personally)

so any junkmail letter droppers or management company personnel would be tresspassing and on your property illegally ?

its a wild stab at something.... or as someone else has mentioned - buy 4 clamps and use them when you park.

Paulw

PCPhoto wrote: »

could you put up a sign on your driveway - indicating that any unauthorised tresspassing will be prosecuted - and give indications of those exempt (postman, delivery persons, gardai and emergency services, family members friends, neighbours etc....actual persons who know the occupants of the house personally)

so any junkmail letter droppers or management company personnel would be tresspassing and on your property illegally ?

its a wild stab at something.... or as someone else has mentioned - buy 4 clamps and use them when you park.

Again, you don't own the property. The management company do. You only have use of it, hence the Lease Contract.

The Managament company would have a right of access, through the Lease Contract, to maintain the development.

Of course, if the OP paid their management fees, there would be no issue.

source

While the lease outlines that you're entitled to 1.5 parking spaces, I'm fairly confident it also outlines that you are expected to pay management fees. Seeing as the parking spaces you're entitled to park in are the property of the management company. They're perfectly entitled to clamp a car parked on their property when the fee for the upkeep of this area is not paid.

I would also advise against damaging the clamp in any way. If you're clamped, and you cut the lock, you are guilty of criminal damage, even if you give them a new lock,

NoQuarter

There was an article on just this in the last Law Society magazine if anyone would be kind enough to post it up!

234

Yeash, but that article dealt with clamping on private property where there was no other legal relationship between the parties. In this the situation is considerably complicated by th einvolvement of the managment company.

daheff

beebaw wrote: »

our lease it states that we have the use of 1.5 spaces.

Do you own your property or lease/rent it?

If you lease/rent it then talk to the person who you rent from to get this issue resolved and explain that you will pass on any clamping fees that may occur if they have not provided you with any passes for the parking

If you own the property- then get together with other owners in the estate and request a meeting with mgmt company. At the meeting demand that this threat to clamp cars of residents is removed and if they refuse then get the residents to vote them out and get a new management company.

Above all make sure you the residents are not going to be charged for the provision of clamping service to the management company.

MagicSean

daheff wrote: »

Do you own your property or lease/rent it?

If you lease/rent it then talk to the person who you rent from to get this issue resolved and explain that you will pass on any clamping fees that may occur if they have not provided you with any passes for the parking

If you own the property- then get together with other owners in the estate and request a meeting with mgmt company. At the meeting demand that this threat to clamp cars of residents is removed and if they refuse then get the residents to vote them out and get a new management company.

Above all make sure you the residents are not going to be charged for the provision of clamping service to the management company.

Ok so you get rid of the clamping company and then come home to find someone in your space and no other spaces around. Will you be happier then?

Paulw

daheff wrote: »

If you own the property- then get together with other owners in the estate and request a meeting with mgmt company. At the meeting demand that this threat to clamp cars of residents is removed and if they refuse then get the residents to vote them out and get a new management company.

If you haven't paid your management fees, then you have no vote at a company meeting. Those details are normally specified in the Memo and Articles of the management company.

If the OP paid the management fee, there wouldn't be an issue.

the_syco

How much are the management fees?

swordofislam

Cut the clamp off and throw it away. Don't give them a new lock and don't return the clamp.

ciaran76

They tried that in our estate and to an extent it worked.
But there were people who didnt have cars who got away with not paying their fees for 2-3 years.


People just cut off the clamps everytime and at 1 stage the clamping company gave up on th eestate as nearly every night 2 clamps would have been cut or sawn off.

Gardai would not get involved as no one "seen" who cut off the clamps.

Eventually a better legal team was employed and chased the fees down the normal route and the clamping finished.

Paulw

We use clamping to enforce fees in our development too, and we have CCTV and have used it on those who cut the clamps.

Very quickly, the vast majority of fees were paid up. For the few who didn't have cars, etc, we're currently taking them to court.

Bottom line, if you pay your fees, then you get your parking permits and there are no issues.

DUB777

Paulw wrote: »

We use clamping to enforce fees in our development too, and we have CCTV and have used it on those who cut the clamps.

Very quickly, the vast majority of fees were paid up. For the few who didn't have cars, etc, we're currently taking them to court.

Bottom line, if you pay your fees, then you get your parking permits and there are no issues.

If the chap is living there for the past 5 years & all of a sudden NCPS or whoever you are come wading in looking for more money cause it suits you to earn some more cash thats hardly fair. If he maintains his property himself then why should he have to pay for clampers to keep off his back??

DUB777

beebaw wrote: »

i like in a rather large estate where clamping is being introducted as a bullying tactic from the managment company in order for householders to pay their fees, so basically we have lived in our house for the past 5 years, parked outside our door in a space that we have occupied for the duration and in our lease it states that we have the use of 1.5 spaces.
Now the managment company are implementing a clamping policy where if you do not pay your fees you will not get a parking permit so hence we will not be able to park outside our house.
So what i want to know is if my car gets clamped do i have a right to remove the clamp by whatever means as i did not give permission to anybody to interfere with my car which is private property.

I reckon the 4 clamps are probably your cheapest option. If your a boy racer you could always get pneumatic suspension fitted on the jammer, drop it to the deck everytime you park the car up[expensive but the car will look savage]. They wont be able to clamp it without damaging it. Or just keep cutting them off & disposing of the clamps. But they will eventually wait for you and try catch you in the act. Another better suggestion would be [if your living in a large estate] get all your neighbours together have a meeting about it & everyone watch out for each other. Make a protest the next time they come in, block them from entering. It would help 2 things, (1) If you had the numbers it'd deter them from clamping everyone (2) and the better part of it would be rebuilding the community spirit that has evaporated across the nation when the celtic tiger crept into the scenario.
It'll take some arranging though depending on how big your estate is. If there are other who feel as strongly about it as you then its defo worth a shot. Worst case scenario would be a flock of clampers in together & clamping
but a major pro would be you'd get to meet people/make friends with others in the estate whom you didn't know before. Granted you'll meet people you dont like, but your gonna meet more people you do like unless your an antisocial person, then it wouldn't be an option. But if you can find the numbers, then rack 'em up as they say. You'll have nothing to loose.

Paulw

DUB777 wrote: »

If the chap is living there for the past 5 years & all of a sudden NCPS or whoever you are come wading in looking for more money cause it suits you to earn some more cash thats hardly fair. If he maintains his property himself then why should he have to pay for clampers to keep off his back??

Maybe you should read the OPs post. No one is looking for "more money".

He lives in a managed development. He therefore has to pay management fees. If he doesn't pay his management fees, he doesn't get parking permits. No permits = clamping.

NCPS (or whoever) are doing as they were instructed by the management agent, who was given instructions from the management company (probably the directors, or may have been voted on at an AGM).

If the OP hasn't paid management fees, then they have no vote at an AGM, so can't block the introduction of clamping.

So, it doesn't matter how long the OP has lived there. The OP has a legal obligation to pay his management fees. If he paid those fees, he would have received his parking permits, and there would be no discussion.

DUB777

Paulw wrote: »

Maybe you should read the OPs post. No one is looking for "more money".

He lives in a managed development. He therefore has to pay management fees. If he doesn't pay his management fees, he doesn't get parking permits. No permits = clamping.

NCPS (or whoever) are doing as they were instructed by the management agent, who was given instructions from the management company (probably the directors, or may have been voted on at an AGM).

If the OP hasn't paid management fees, then they have no vote at an AGM, so can't block the introduction of clamping.

So, it doesn't matter how long the OP has lived there. The OP has a legal obligation to pay his management fees. If he paid those fees, he would have received his parking permits, and there would be no discussion.

1) Buy yourself 4 clamps & 2 driveway security poles placed at either end of the car leave less than an inch and a half either end
of the car. They try to lift it, they'll damage it.
or
2) Get yourself pneumatic suspension
or
3) Get the rest of the estate in on it, actions speak louder than words.

knuth

DUB777 wrote: »

1) Buy yourself 4 clamps
or
2) Get yourself pneumatic suspension
or
3) Get the rest of the estate in on it, actions speak louder than words.

Or, just pay your fees like everyone else?

godtabh

DUB777 wrote: »

1) Buy yourself 4 clamps
or
2) Get yourself pneumatic suspension
or
3) Get the rest of the estate in on it, actions speak louder than words.

4) pay your fees

DUB777

What if he/she's in the position like half of the rest of the country & unable to afford this ridiculous expense?

source

DUB777 wrote: »

What if he/she's in the position like half of the rest of the country & unable to afford this ridiculous expense?

Then try to renegotiate the fees, but the op is currently party to a contract, one of the clauses of which is to pay an annual management fee. If he doesn't pay the fee for whatever reason then he is in breach of a contract.

If he goes to the management company and explains the situation they may be lenient, but taking matters into your own hands and causing criminal damage is not the way to go about it.

gaz wac

you ring them, you tell them and they will sort out a repayment plan that would suit you.
non payment of Mang fees, is good for no one !! wish our company would get the finger out with non payers !! :mad:

godtabh

DUB777 wrote: »

What if he/she's in the position like half of the rest of the country & unable to afford this ridiculous expense?

I'm a director of a management company.

We have made numerous arrangements for people to pay there fees. At the end of the day the balance remains on your account. At the end of the day the management company will get recoup the fees either through the courts or a charge on the property that you would have to settle that you would legal have to settle before selling the property.

ingen

beebaw wrote: »

i like in a rather large estate where clamping is being introducted as a bullying tactic from the managment company in order for householders to pay their fees, so basically we have lived in our house for the past 5 years, parked outside our door in a space that we have occupied for the duration and in our lease it states that we have the use of 1.5 spaces.
Now the managment company are implementing a clamping policy where if you do not pay your fees you will not get a parking permit so hence we will not be able to park outside our house.
So what i want to know is if my car gets clamped do i have a right to remove the clamp by whatever means as i did not give permission to anybody to interfere with my car which is private property.

each property is a member of the management company , and has voting rights, ( check articles re payments as some have if your not paid up you cant vote), if a majority of owners/members get together, call an EGM and take a vote, and turn that idea on its head, gather the troops, and request an EGM, or wait for AGM, and then you can have control.

the above is based on you owning the property, do you rent or own?
who is running the management company?

Paulw

ingen wrote: »

each property is a member of the management company , and has voting rights, ( check articles re payments as some have if your not paid up you cant vote), if a majority of owners/members get together, call an EGM and take a vote, and turn that idea on its head, gather the troops, and request an EGM, or wait for AGM, and then you can have control.

But, again, the OP has said they weren't given parking permits, that only those who had fully paid their fees got permits. So, even with an AGM/EGM, the OP can't vote to change anything, because he hasn't paid his fees.

As has been stated many times, if the OP paid their management fees, there would be no issue here at all, since they would have parking permits, so wouldn't be clamped.

dermot_sheehan

NoQuarter wrote: »

There was an article on just this in the last Law Society magazine if anyone would be kind enough to post it up!

Shameless plug I know
http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202011/March2011.pdf

Carawaystick

section 113 of the Road Trafic Act1961 makes it an offence for clamping on private land which is a public place.

Write to the management co. and inform them of this, which will invalidate the defence of subsection 5

If you do get clamped, make a complaint to the gardaí

MagicSean

Carawaystick wrote: »

section 113 of the Road Trafic Act1961 makes it an offence for clamping on private land which is a public place.

Write to the management co. and inform them of this, which will invalidate the defence of subsection 5

If you do get clamped, make a complaint to the gardaí

The gardai won't get involved unless something has been damaged. 113 does not apply.

DUB777

Carawaystick wrote: »

section 113 of the Road Trafic Act1961 makes it an offence for clamping on private land which is a public place.

Write to the management co. and inform them of this, which will invalidate the defence of subsection 5

If you do get clamped, make a complaint to the gardaí

Boards needs way more posters like you
You rock :cool:

DUB777

k_mac wrote: »

The gardai won't get involved unless something has been damaged. 113 does not apply.

113 will apply when the clamp has been cut off:D
The clampers will try claim its 'criminal' damage the shower of monkeys:cool:

Paulw

DUB777 wrote: »

113 will apply when the clamp has been cut off:D
The clampers will try claim its 'criminal' damage

No, it still won't apply, but the clampers will be able to make a case for criminal damage if anyone is seen cutting off the clamp.

Only then will the Gardai get involved.

I don't know of a single case where the Gardai attended site for a vehicle being clamped. But, they will attend if something is damaged.

But, again, this whole thread goes back to a situation where if the OP paid their management fees, there would be no issue in the first place. And paying their management fees is a legal obligation, which can be taken to court.

quickdraw2

If you are clamped in a public place by a private clamper,
If The clamper is acting on instructions from the management Co, the management Co could be held liable for offences "willfull obstruction" & "demanding money with menaces" as being the commissioner of the crime!

I suggest you read this : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055949024

From an old thread with some other interesting info.

quickdraw2

Place this sign:

"Clamps are placed on this vehicle at their owners risk. They will be removed forcibly and the condition of the clamps cannot be guaranteed. "

on your vehicle, and if your vehicle is clamped

CUT IT OFF ! & dont forget to take a photo.


abandon the cutoff clamp where the vehicle was parked.

Use the clampers logic against them.

Del2005

DUB777 wrote: »

1) Buy yourself 4 clamps & 2 driveway security poles placed at either end of the car leave less than an inch and a half either end
of the car. They try to lift it, they'll damage it.

The Management company will remove these, the OP doesn't own the land they park on they only lease it, and add it to the bill.

DUB777 wrote: »

or
3) Get the rest of the estate in on it, actions speak louder than words.

The rest of the estate, that's paid their fee, have spoken and are now getting the people who are putting the estate into the red to pay up.

quickdraw2 wrote: »

Place this sign:

"Clamps are placed on this vehicle at their owners risk. They will be removed forcibly and the condition of the clamps cannot be guaranteed. "

on your vehicle, and if your vehicle is clamped

CUT IT OFF ! & dont forget to take a photo.


abandon the cutoff clamp where the vehicle was parked.

Use the clampers logic against them.

That only works where they don't know where you live. The OP will be clamped outside their front door so it won't be too hard to find them.

MagicSean

quickdraw2 wrote: »

Place this sign:

"Clamps are placed on this vehicle at their owners risk. They will be removed forcibly and the condition of the clamps cannot be guaranteed. "

on your vehicle, and if your vehicle is clamped

CUT IT OFF ! & dont forget to take a photo.


abandon the cutoff clamp where the vehicle was parked.

Use the clampers logic against them.

By relying on that logic you are of course validating the clampers position. But you knew that right?