State staff to get lump sum compensationfor loss of pay

nursextreme

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-staff-to-get-lump-sum-compensationfor-loss-of-pay-2616117.html

PUBLIC servants will get compensation for any loss of earnings they suffer from work-practice changes under the Croke Park deal.

And it is not yet known how much the agreed one-off payments will cost the State.

The Irish Independent has learnt that the deal means the public servants will get a lump sum of 1.5 times what they would have otherwise earned in a normal year if their overtime, allowances or work practices had been left untouched.

The sooner Europe kicks this Croke Park Agreement Nonsense into touch the better for everyone. Apart from those overtime junkies who wag theirs tails at every overtime bone (BRIBE) that management throws their way.

sollar

nursextreme wrote: »

The Irish Independent has learnt

:rolleyes: the independent is full of rubbish.

MagicSean

Reminds me of the myth about Gardaí who can claim for overtime missed while they are on holiday.

Godge

nursextreme wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/state-staff-to-get-lump-sum-compensationfor-loss-of-pay-2616117.html

PUBLIC servants will get compensation for any loss of earnings they suffer from work-practice changes under the Croke Park deal.

And it is not yet known how much the agreed one-off payments will cost the State.

The Irish Independent has learnt that the deal means the public servants will get a lump sum of 1.5 times what they would have otherwise earned in a normal year if their overtime, allowances or work practices had been left untouched.

The sooner Europe kicks this Croke Park Agreement Nonsense into touch the better for everyone. Apart from those overtime junkies who wag theirs tails at every overtime bone (BRIBE) that management throws their way.

The bit in bold is not true. If it were true, there would have been compensation for the pension levy and for the pay cuts. It is my understanding that the compensation is only for regular rostered payments such as shiftwork and regular rostered overtime which are permanently eliminated. In the past, when these have been eliminated, those in both the private and public sector have been compensated by up to three times the annual loss.

If you take a look at the Labour Court database on decisions
http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labour.nsf/LookupPageLink/HomeRecommendations
you will see that there have been a number of cases this year involving claims for such compensation from various local authority and health groups. Some have been granted by the Labour Court, some have not. It is a reflection on the standard of journalism in Ireland that the Irish Independent is only learning now about something that has been happening since at least last autumn and is now old news.

P.S. I would have linked to individual decisions of the Labour Court but it does not seem possible to do so. If you click on "by case type" and look under "LCR" you will see lists of various cases that go on for several pages. Look at some of the ones that refer to compensation for loss of earnings and you will see the rationale for the decisions. As I said earlier, this is not confined to the public sector. In fact the most recent decision in the private sector - involving Abbott Ireland LCR20033 saw compensation awarded while the most recent case in the health sector - involving Galway University Hospital LCR200031 saw no compensation awarded.

There you go, compensation for private sector employees but not for public sector employees. How did the Indo get that wrong?:rolleyes:

Nothing to see here except a typically uninformed rant against the public sector that will go on for 20 pages or more.

PCPhoto

k_mac wrote: »

Reminds me of the myth about Gardaí who can claim for overtime missed while they are on holiday.

you sure thats a myth ?

DoesNotCompute

Godge wrote: »

Nothing to see here except a typically uninformed rant against the public sector that will go on for 20 pages or more.

Precisely.

The Indo has gone seriously downhill lately.

Sconsey

Godge wrote: »

In the past, when these have been eliminated, those in both the private and public sector have been compensated by up to three times the annual loss.
<snip>
Nothing to see here except a typically uninformed rant against the public sector that will go on for 20 pages or more.

But I wonder what would happen if that private company was removing overtime because they were in debt up their eyballs and simply could not afford to pay out. I imagine the private company would say something along the lines of 'F**K It, we are closing down, we can't afford these payouts and keep the people employed'.

Unfortunately the public service management does not have that option, and unions are still in denial about the state of the economy.

RichardAnd

The mods migth want to merge this thread with the one currently running on PS wages (150 pages of the same points when I last checked).

Take the spindo with a pinch of salt or perhaps, an entire shaker.

Godge

Sconsey wrote: »

But I wonder what would happen if that private company was removing overtime because they were in debt up their eyballs and simply could not afford to pay out. I imagine the private company would say something along the lines of 'F**K It, we are closing down, we can't afford these payouts and keep the people employed'.

Unfortunately the public service management does not have that option, and unions are still in denial about the state of the economy.

Provide evidence. I referenced two cases, one where the private sector paid up and the public sector didn't. That is hard cold evidence that you can check out yourself. People are forgetting that the world is not all black and white, private sector good, public sector bad.

Imagine what you like but it does not provide any support for your argument.

Godge

Sconsey wrote: »

But I wonder what would happen if that private company was removing overtime because they were in debt up their eyballs and simply could not afford to pay out. I imagine the private company would say something along the lines of 'F**K It, we are closing down, we can't afford these payouts and keep the people employed'.

Unfortunately the public service management does not have that option, and unions are still in denial about the state of the economy.

LCR200020 - involving Calor Gas (private sector), half the allowance to be retained and the other half to be bought out at twice the annual value (oh my god, more than the public sector is paying:rolleyes:)

LCR20017 - involving Allied Irish Bank (private or public:rolleyes:) and a tea allowance, yes an allowance because you can't have a cup of tea, compensation to be negotiated.

LCR20011 - Davenport Hotels - private sector business not allowed impose pay cut (oh my god, the government has done this twice to the public sector)

LCR20000 - Pfizer Ireland - twice the annual loss (again more than the public sector pays)

There is plenty of evidence of private sector employers paying up and at a greater rate than the public sector.

ParkRunner

sollar wrote: »

:rolleyes: the independent is full of rubbish.

I don't know how this paper is the most popular in Ireland. I stopped buying any papers published by the INM a long time ago due to its obvious agenda.

Sconsey

Godge wrote: »

Provide evidence. I referenced two cases, one where the private sector paid up and the public sector didn't. That is hard cold evidence that you can check out yourself. People are forgetting that the world is not all black and white, private sector good, public sector bad.

Imagine what you like but it does not provide any support for your argument.

Provide evidence of what exactly? I am clearly speculating and you confirmed that in your second paragraph.

I am saying that we cannot afford this, if a private company cannot afford to pay it's staff they let them go (evidence: thousands on the dole). Legally the people in these cases are entited to bonuses, doesn't take away from the fact that we don't have the money to pay them.

Godge

Sconsey wrote: »

Provide evidence of what exactly? I am clearly speculating and you confirmed that in your second paragraph.

I am saying that we cannot afford this, if a private company cannot afford to pay it's staff they let them go (evidence: thousands on the dole). Legally the people in these cases are entited to bonuses, doesn't take away from the fact that we don't have the money to pay them.

(1) They are not bonuses; it is compensation for loss of earnings, a completely different category of remuneration

(2) They are not legally entitled to anything. Labour Court Recommendations are not legally binding except when the case comes under a particular section of the Industrial Relations Act or another Act. In all of the cases I referenced, the court recommendation was not legally binding.

(3) In any discussion, hard evidence wins out over speculation. I have provided evidence that the recommendations on compensation for loss of earnings are lower in the public sector than in the private sector. That would suggest that the public servants are reasonably due that compensation. I would suggest speculate that they are also more often refused but I would need longer time to back that up studying the Labour Court database.

(4) By what standard are you judging whether it is fairer to raise taxes to pay public servants what they are reasonably due in compensation for loss of earnings rather than refuse to pay them? And while we are at it, should we also refuse to pay the remaining compensation due to victims of clerical child abuse because we are out of money? We can rant and rave about public servants all day long but at some point and on some things they are reasonably due to be paid.

ardmacha

By what standard are you judging whether it is fairer to raise taxes to pay public servants

Official me féin policy, I imagine. I want the services, but am not willing to pay for them.

Head The Wall

ardmacha wrote: »

Official me féin policy, I imagine. I want the services, but am not willing to pay for them.

Maybe yourself and Godge are unaware that we have raised taxes but they have fallen below the govts estimates as announced last week.

Most people (bar govt employees seemingly) realise that expenditure needs to be cut in line with tax increases.

dvpower

ardmacha wrote: »

Official me féin policy, I imagine. I want the services, but am not willing to pay for them.

can't afford to pay for them,. more like.
There's simply no way we can afford to raise enough taxes to pay for anything approaching our current level of public services.
We need to both cut the services and cut the cost of the services

Godge

Head The Wall wrote: »

Maybe yourself and Godge are unaware that we have raised taxes but they have fallen below the govts estimates as announced last week.

Most people (bar govt employees seemingly) realise that expenditure needs to be cut in line with tax increases.

We have raised some taxes but unlike the rest of Europe we
- have no property tax
- have no water charges
- have a low corporation tax rate
- still have a large proportion of earners outside the tax net
- have an old age pension at twice the European average
- pay child benefit at three times the European average to every child
- have people migrating to Ireland for the social welfare benefits.


Perhaps if we considered some of these other policy choices that are normal in the rest of Europe, we might be able to pay our public servants, for to be fair to some of them, their pay is now normal by international standards. But hey don't let that stop you just repeating the same old mantra.

stoneill

Again I say:

These arguments between Public/Private sectors are a distraction from the real issues. It suits the govt, banks, bond holders, IMF, ECB and blood sucking leeches who destroyed this country and are getting away without recrimination to have Johnny Punchclock and Mable Mop at each others throat.
Pay and wages - small pittance compared to the BILLIONS that was stolen from us and our future generations.
So what that public sector are getting compo for future loss of earnings. They deserve it.
No compo for me when I am seeing my son off to the airport to look for work elsewhere. Just less and less take home pay. More and more tax.
I'm just so angry that not one person has been brought to justice, still living the executive lifestyle, claiming poverty on €9000 a month, swapping range rovers.

WalterMitty

stoneill wrote: »

Again I say:

These arguments between Public/Private sectors are a distraction from the real issues. It suits the govt, banks, bond holders, IMF, ECB and blood sucking leeches who destroyed this country and are getting away without recrimination to have Johnny Punchclock and Mable Mop at each others throat.
Pay and wages - small pittance compared to the BILLIONS that was stolen from us and our future generations.
So what that public sector are getting compo for future loss of earnings. They deserve it.
No compo for me when I am seeing my son off to the airport to look for work elsewhere. Just less and less take home pay. More and more tax.
I'm just so angry that not one person has been brought to justice, still living the executive lifestyle, claiming poverty on €9000 a month, swapping range rovers.

And you cant see any connection between your son having to emmigrate and the high levels of public expenditure on pay and compo for public sector workers? Billions werent stolen from us. We all as a nation over indulged over past decade. PAy rates, both public and private, welfare rates, employment rates, GNP per capita rates were all higher as those BILLIONS were flowing through Irish economy. A few token bogeymen didnt cause all this.