Big Mess

LegacyUser

Hi all,
I am looking for advice for my brother who has got himself into a huge mess. I am very close to him and I'm worried sick and want to help him.
I'll try keep this as short as possible and would appreciate if people could let me know what they think. I'll start by saying that my brother is a good, decent, hard working man (I know as his sister people will think I'm biased but this is true and he is loved by everyone that knows him). He is in his early 30's now and is married with a 2 year old child. He has been going out with his wife since his teenage years and to be honest I think they just got married as it was the next thing to do. My brother wouldn't be the most confident and probably felt he would never find anyone else. I am in no way an interfering sister and although I always felt she was not right for him I never once mentioned it. She is lazy and bad humoured and since they met he has done everything for her and bought everything for her and paid for everything and got very little in return. Anyway I recently found out that my brother had an affair with someone he met (who is also married). From what I can make out he really fell for her and she for him and they both have gone through a terrible time because of guilt. I used to think that people who had affairs were terrible people and that it was the people they cheated on who suffered but hearing his story completely blows that view out of the water. Anyway his wife found out about the affair last year and threatened to leave, but didn't. My brother half heartedly told her not to go as he didn't want to be the one to break up the marriage (purely because of his child - he does not want a situation where his wife stops him seeing his child). In the end anyway she didn't leave but has made his life hell since, basically treating him like a child and blackmailing him by saying she is suicidal. He continued the affair through all this (I know this was not the best thing to do but by all accounts he needed some support which the other woman provided). Only recently the other woman has cut contact with him because she cannot take the waiting for his wife to leave (my brother has told her that he cannot leave his wife, because of his child so the only way he can be with her is if his wife leaves him). Anyway to sum up, I don't think his wife will leave him because although she must know that he doesn't love her he provides so much for her (house, car etc. etc. etc.) and is a great father. My question is - do people think he should leave and give himself a chance of happiness? He is doing this for his child but will his child be happier in the long run with 2 happy parents apart rather than two parents together who don't live eachother? I have heard the full story and am convinced that the other woman would make him so happy and would treat him so much better than his wife. I think he deserves to be happy.

Daisy M

The decision has to be his and his alone, you need to step back and not influence him at all. No one here can tell you or predict how things will pan out. Maybe you could suggest to your brother than he and his wife attend marriage councelling, but other than that stay out of it. This is his and his wifes marriage and it should be their decision on wheather it ends or continues not yours.

OS119

your brother needs to speak to an experienced, competant family law solicitor.

your brother isn't leaving his wife because he fears that his wife may destroy his relationship with his child. a decent family law solicitor - and not randoms on the internet - will be able to tell your brother if this is a realistic fear. when your brother has good information he can re-evaluate that decision, he may come to another decision, or he may not - but at least it will be based on good information, not tripe on the internet.

stear him in that direction, then stay the hell out.

fungun

His happiness, his life, his choice.

Not sure if you are a parent or not, OP, but some people will do just about anything for their kids. May look like craziness, but not doing it could make them very unhappy too. I think you just have to leave this with him.

I am a friend

99% of the time the child stays with the mother anyway so why does he not want to leave?

Sonics2k

Hey OP.

A bit of advice here.

Your brother is married as you have said, this means the child is legally his and the mother cannot prevent them from seeing eachother.

Your husband should speak to a solicitor, and seek visitation rights as well as confirming he is willing to pay maintenance for the child.

The important thing here is that your brother and his wife should either seek counselling, or seperate, as it is not a healthy environment for a child to grow up in.

I'm a separated father myself, and I can say in all honesty my relationship with my children has improved since the separation, as I'm no longer in an un-happy relationship.

Best of luck.

LegacyUser

OP here again. Thanks for the replies guys. I understand (and he does too) that he will always be the childs father and he will always have a legal right to see the child. But my brother is the type who never wants to upset anyone and he doesn't want a situation where he leaves her and then there is bad feeling which affects his child. I am not going to influence him but am just trying to help him see things abit more clearly. At the moment is he is torn apart with feelings of missing the woman he loves, feelings of being trapped in a home and marriage with a woman who he feels nothing for and who he has nothing in common with. He knows he will always regret it if he is not with the other woman. He says he would love to have the courage to leave his wife but it is because of his child that he can't - he doesn't want to be the one to walk out on the family. He is also worried about their house which he has worked tirelessly for years on with no help or financial support from her. he has even paid off the mortage and doesn't want to leave her as she will be bitter and stay in the house just to spite him (she knows it will be classed as the family home so she can stay in it). I suppose I am just trying to find out what people think in terms of his child? He says he would find it very hard not to live in the same house as his child and see his child every day. But should he really stay in this marriage? Will his child (2 now) be ok growing up without him? Would his child be better off with him as a father if he is happy and content in another relationship even if that means he is not with his mother and not living with him? Thanks so much for the replies. It kills me to see the pain he is in.

I am a friend

Please use paragraphs as it's too hard to read your post otherwise.

Sleepy

Your brother is facing the same basic problem that most men in unhappy marriages are. His decision boils down to one question:

Which makes him happier: "putting up with" his wife and seeing his child every day or the chance at romantic happiness but only getting to see his child(ren) for a few hours a week (and the risk of that relegating him to "the guy that brings him/her/them to McDonalds" rather than "Dad")?

metrovelvet

Whatever he decides to do, he is going to cause unhappiness to someone, he has no choice but to cause upset if he leaves his family. That's the price of admission.

A divorce is always going to uspet kids and will change the course of their relationship. When people decided these things, I dont think they have any idea to what extent they will change everything.

When I was growing up in NY we had a lot of divorce, so I went to school with a lot of kids who saw their dads every other weekend. They were shipped off with overnight bags and this man they had to see, was just a man they had to see every other weekend. They never talked about their dads at all, the dads were not central to their lives or their psyches. Im sure if their dads knew that they would be devasted to hear it, but that is honestly how it was when you are no longer connected to the hearth, the center of the home.

Is this a reason for him to stay in an unhappy marriage? Or is this a reason to make his marriage happy?

So...he has had an affair and he wants to leave his wife and child for this married woman who wants to leave her husband for him?

Your brother wants his wife to leave and be the one to break up the family so he can be free? Isnt taht a bit cake and eat it? He doesnt want to do the dirty work himself?

Im sorry, but he is living in fantasy land. If he wants to be free, he will have to do it himself. What follows is anyone's guess. The child is two now, visitation will be very debated on a two year old, how does this new girlfriend he has feel about being a step mother, would she be a good step mother to the child. How will it be for him sorting out a divorce while he is starting out a new relationship.

He now has two messes to clean up. Maybe he should start by picking up one mess to clean up before making a new one.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the replies.

I suppose my gut feeling is that he should leave his wife as I can see that they are not right together and he will never be happy with her and he knows this too.

I feel that his child will be ok and in a way sadly, if the marriage breaks up now he will be too young to remember and therfore will not know any different. I know my brother and there is no way he will just be a weekend father, the child would want for nothing in terms of love and contact and material things that he needs. Surely his child will be better with a happy father all be it one who does not live with him and hopefully a happy mother? I think she would be happier too if she could find some one that really loves her, as my brother does not.

I am scared that he will not have the courage to leave and that his wife will not leave him because of all he provides her and that a few years down the line he will realise he has made a huge huge mistake by not leaving her and that he will not be able to cope with it.

Contessa Raven

Hi OP,

I know it must be really hard for you to see your brother so unhappy but I'm afraid there is nothing you can do other than be there for him and listen to him.

As another poster mentioned, try and get him to see a solicitor about the situation. His wife need not know. The solicitor will be able to answer his questions. He may come to a decision afterwards.

My parents split up when I was 14. It was hell. What was even worse was living with them before the split. The atmosphere in the house was so fragile. I'd dread coming home from school (and I wasn't a big fan of school! ).

IMO, a small child will suffer just as much in a house where the parents are unhappy. They pick up on the negative vibes and they overhear the arguments and snipey comments.

I was so much happier after my parents separated. My dad moved out but I saw him all the time and I moved in with him when I was 16.

I think it would be better for your brother and his child if they were to go their separate ways but that is a decision your brother needs to come to himself. You nor I can make the decision for him and it wouldn't be right for anyone to persuade him either.

All you can do is suggest he visits a solicitor and hope that he gains the confidence to take action.

CR

skooterblue

How about you mind your own business?

This is your brothers trouble. He made his bed and let him lie in it.

This will eventually come out in the open. If you go interfeering who do you think every one will blame? You for telling, you for not telling, you for interfeering by both sides of the family.

I would say stay far away from it. Its not your marrige, child, adulturous relationship. When this goes off it will be ugly.

LegacyUser

OP, I think I would be disraught if any of my siblings ever referred to my children in such a cold and impersonal manner, it may be because I am a parent but you seem to disregard this infant completely?? .. not to mention his marriage vows and personal integrity ... do you not think you are a bit too involved in your brothers life?? his wife and child are his family now you know ...

StillWaters

Normally its the Other Woman hears the 'my wife doesn't understand me / she is a nutter / I'm only staying for the child/ren' not the sister.
Your brother sounds nasty, cowardly, dishonest and mean.

At least the other woman has got some sense and dumped him.

Fentdog84

I grew up in a household of an unhappy marriage. My parents used to fight all the time. My Dad is a weak character and my mum used to give him a really hard time I never could figure out why my dad just wouldnt leave. As a result my dad starting drinking heavily to bottle it all up. Ive nothing against my mum but she's always been a bit mentally unstable. Anyway, growing up in that kind of atmosphere was difficult and drained my confidence during my teenage years. Your brother needs to find a way out and face down whatever his wife will throw at him. But OP, dont become emotionally embroiled in this yourself or lose sleep over it. It is up to your brother to basically grow a pair and sort his life out.

HugoDrax

Hi OP,

It's great that you care for your brother and all and he is lucky to have someone like you looking out for him, but ultimately it is his mess.
It seems like his marriage is doomed and he will have to end it.
He will have to find a way to leave, start a new relationship and for his wife to still allow him to see the kids.
He is only going to able to do that by first being open and honest to these women.
He will have to accept that his wife will probably hate him and will not allow him see his kids.
There's just no getting away from that.
It is his mess and he has to deal with it.
Your job is to be there for him because it is going to be tough.

Kimia

Op I have to be honest, your brother sounds like a spineless, weak loser who seems to drift through life avoiding any hassle and doing whatever he pleases without giving a flying fúck about the consequences. Your post where you're looking for ways to solve his problems for him also speaks volumes. Have you been doing this all his life? There's being a caring supportive sister, and then there's trying to live his life for him. I'm also surprised that you're not in any way critical of his cheating on his wife and child with this other woman.

It sounds like if his wife doesn't leave him he'll continue to drift and float along, vaguely unhappy and scared of change, and nothing will really happen and his affair will probably fizzle out for good, and then he'll have another one and so on. I'm sure the other women will get sick of waiting for his wife to figure out what's going on and then end it because clearly your brother doesn't want the hassle of actually making a hard decision.

Bleating on about how he doesn't want to leave his child and he'll continue to suffer with his terrible wife (poor man) until she either loses her mind or leaves him sounds very weak and passive. I'm from a divorced parents background and it's way worse for your husband to teach his child that it's ok to cheat, lie and deceive his partner than to not be there 24/7. And to be fair he's not actually 'there' anyway, since he's having an affair and presumably has to lie about his whereabouts. That will just continue and the child will grow up thinking it's normal. How sad. It also sounds like he's gaslighting her too, 'halfheartedly asking her to stay' even when she found out about his affair. Shudder.

However, my advice is to you. Stay out of it. You can't make him do anything. I understand that you love your brother but this is too much. Let him live (and ruin) his own life as he is blithely doing right now. He's dithering around and it could take him years to make a decision so let him off instead of letting his uncertainty and fear wreck your head too.

LegacyUser

Thanks for all the replies.

I know it sounds like I am interfering - but I'm not. I'm posting on here for advice because I've no one else to talk to because rather than telling him what I think he should do or anything I am keeping quiet because I know it has to be his decision.

I agree that he is being passive and I wish he could have the courage to take control of the situation.

I am not for one second condoning the fact that he had an affair, I was horrified when I found out and I used to be the first to condemn people who did that and call them every name under the sun. However I now have a better insight (unfortunately) into these situations and having seen the state he was and is in and I can honestly say that it is not all rosy in the garden for people who have affairs. In my brothers case he was lonely and unappreciated and he ended up having an affair. He did not set out to have one, he met someone and fell in love and unfortunately didn't have the courage to do the right thing and end it with his wife straight away.

I am also in no way disregarding my nephew as one poster said, although I can see why it might have sounded that way. In fact it is him I am thinking about alot. That's why I think he would be better off if his parents separated and hopefully both of them ended up being happy with other people. They don't love eachother and it looks like they never will so maybe their child would be better off not living in this environment? At the moment I feel that the lives of both my brother and his wife (and the other woman and her husband) are being wasted and it would be better for all of them if they could all get a chance to live their lives and be with people who are really right for them and who really love them.

Kimia

LadyX wrote: »

At the moment I feel that the lives of both my brother and his wife (and the other woman and her husband) are being wasted and it would be better for all of them if they could all get a chance to live their lives and be with people who are really right for them and who really love them.

Not your call and nothing you can do but let them live their own lives.

Sleepy

LadyX wrote: »

I am also in no way disregarding my nephew as one poster said, although I can see why it might have sounded that way. In fact it is him I am thinking about alot. That's why I think he would be better off if his parents separated and hopefully both of them ended up being happy with other people. They don't love eachother and it looks like they never will so maybe their child would be better off not living in this environment? At the moment I feel that the lives of both my brother and his wife (and the other woman and her husband) are being wasted and it would be better for all of them if they could all get a chance to live their lives and be with people who are really right for them and who really love them.

This is making the huge assumption that both your brother and his wife will find happiness with other people and that your nephew won't be dragged from pillar to post through the introduction of his parents new boyfriends / girlfriends to his life etc.

It's also making the incorrect assumption that your brother only seeing his son for, at best, a couple of days a week won't dramatically alter their relationship.

TBH, though, you really can't give advice in this scenario. Your brother is the only one who knows if he can really try to make a go of his marriage.

metrovelvet

LadyX wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies.

I know it sounds like I am interfering - but I'm not. I'm posting on here for advice because I've no one else to talk to because rather than telling him what I think he should do or anything I am keeping quiet because I know it has to be his decision.

I agree that he is being passive and I wish he could have the courage to take control of the situation.

I am not for one second condoning the fact that he had an affair, I was horrified when I found out and I used to be the first to condemn people who did that and call them every name under the sun. However I now have a better insight (unfortunately) into these situations and having seen the state he was and is in and I can honestly say that it is not all rosy in the garden for people who have affairs. In my brothers case he was lonely and unappreciated and he ended up having an affair. He did not set out to have one, he met someone and fell in love and unfortunately didn't have the courage to do the right thing and end it with his wife straight away.

I am also in no way disregarding my nephew as one poster said, although I can see why it might have sounded that way. In fact it is him I am thinking about alot. That's why I think he would be better off if his parents separated and hopefully both of them ended up being happy with other people. They don't love eachother and it looks like they never will so maybe their child would be better off not living in this environment? At the moment I feel that the lives of both my brother and his wife (and the other woman and her husband) are being wasted and it would be better for all of them if they could all get a chance to live their lives and be with people who are really right for them and who really love them.

Do you have any idea what divorce can bring to a child's life. If you don't think this will dramatically change the course of all their relationships you are living in serious denial.

I totally agree with Kimia's post.

MissFlitworth

LadyX wrote: »

That's why I think he would be better off if his parents separated and hopefully both of them ended up being happy with other people.

Would he not be better off if his parents worked on their relationship to see if they can save it so that they, hopefully, don't end up having to be part-time parents and deal with the issue of one them trying to find somewhere else to live? Your brother married this woman, he has a responsibility to her and his child to do his best for their family.

I agree with everyone else though, this isn't your call and you would be very silly indeed to try and offer advice in the situation. Your brother has to make up his own mind about what's best to do here

LegacyUser

Thanks for the replies and I see your point.
However I just want to make one thing clear - which I probably haven't so far.
I WISH with all my heart my brother and his wife could be happy together and the two of them could live happily with their son. So does he.
However, he has searched his heart and soul and has tried and tried but he knows in his gut that he will never love and be happy with his wife. They are just fundamentally wrong for eachother. These are not my assumptions - this is what he has told me. I know it is his decision and I am not advising him. But do you all really think he is doing the right thing for his son (and his wife by the way) by staying in a marriage he will be desperately unhappy in?

dan_d

OP, there's only one problem here. Whether or not he should leave his wife.

Leave the other woman out of it. She's gone. Whether she will or won't be back, I don't know, but right now, she's gone. He has absolutely no guarantee that if he left his wife, he'd end up in a relationship with this other woman. Your perception of things change as situations change.

So should he leave his wife? Haven't got an answer for that. Yes, the child could be better off with 2 parents who aren't happy living apart. Then again, he could be worse affected by divorce.No matter what people say, it affects children. In many different ways. But make no mistake, it affects them, often deeply.

My advice to your brother at this stage would be to get himself (and the wife, if possible) to a counsellor. He may have searched his heart and soul, but honestly, he's mired so deeply in the whole situation, he hardly has an objective view. There's nothing like a neutral 3rd party for putting things in perspective.He may come out the other end knowing that it's not going to work.Or he may come out the other end realising what he has. But either way at least he's tried.

His own wife should really accompany him.They've got problems, and they need to at least try and sort them. Her past behaviour doesn't exactly sound wonderful either - it might be good for her to realise that she needs to change her behaviour too. And like I said, there's nothing like a neutral 3rd party for putting things in perspective.

I don't think he should make any decision here, other than what counsellor he wants to see. And if you are giving him any advice, that's what it should be.

LegacyUser

Reality check: after the affair, the wife's passive aggressive suicide threats & everything else, it's very unlikely that those two will have anything left at the end of all this. I'm speaking from experience.
Usually, there is a chance for a relationship to survive after an affair comes out first.. but he continued seeing the other woman, not a good sign.
It's all very well to say what about the child, but sometimes there is no relationship left to heal between the parents, which condemns everyone to a life of misery. Lesser of two evils is to leave & take his chances. I should have left my husband a few years after I had an affair, but I dawdled through guilt and fear of hurting people (the irony of that!) - anyway, now I found that this relationship I clung to and fought for (resisting the other man) is actually worth nothing - it had been worth something but that's back before I fell in love with someone else and me & hubbie damaged each other beyond repair.

Looking back on my pathetic, dawdling stage I can see that I was as spineless and confused as your brother. Even thinking back on what that headspace was like gives me a headache. Unfortunately nothing anyone could say to me back then would get me off the fence; sitting on the fence became my only safety position.


I hope he leaves. Him and the wife are both still young. There could be other spouses and families ahead for both of them. But there's feck all you can say or do. State your thoughts on it strongly and then leave well alone. And god forbid he stays with the missus and goes back to her with your opinion. Thread carefully.

LegacyUser

The voice of reason - thanks for your reply. Hope you are doing ok now - are you still with your husband? Are you still in touch with or actually with the man you fell in love with? Have you any children? My gut feeling is that my brother is like you were - caught in a paralysis of inaction and fear and I have a terrible feeling that like you he will regret not acting