The Spanishiwa Zerg build

Stingerbar

Its great..

Drop a hatchery with your 15th or 16th drone,
then a spawning pool

Then don't drop any gas, only building drones, queens (4), spinecrawlers
and maybe a pair of scouting zerglings

Once you hit 40 drones, slam down all 4 gas geysers

Until then, the queens and spinecrawlers, plus the creep everywhere really does the job

Once the gas comes in, then the economy can handle anything, 9 minute Ultra are possible with economy, suuch a flexible build

I recommend it strongly against Terran, a matchup I often feel lost in.

Orizio

I know nothing about Zerg - what advantages would it give in ZvT?

Columc

I got some good replays from spaniswia yesterday to be casting.

His build is extremly unique, and Its a build that is very hard to copy, since the start is hard to defend from early harass without very good micro.

spanishwa usualy then goes with more queens and usualy build a lot infestors and transitions into ultras and lords with queens to heal, and using nydus to transfer his ultras around the map, having 4-5 nydus up at a time.

Jonny7

Orizio wrote: »

I know nothing about Zerg - what advantages would it give in ZvT?

The large number of queens are great against early air or ground harass, namely hellions, the creep spread is amazing, and the spinecrawlers are extremely cost effective early on

When the 40 drones are done.. the economy goes insane.. choose any tech or upgrade path you want
I just go 6 or 7 muta for harass, then infestor, speedling, speedbanes on a load of creep

Jonny7

Columc wrote: »

I got some good replays from spaniswia yesterday to be casting.

His build is extremly unique, and Its a build that is very hard to copy, since the start is hard to defend from early harass without very good micro.

spanishwa usualy then goes with more queens and usualy build a lot infestors and transitions into ultras and lords with queens to heal, and using nydus to transfer his ultras around the map, having 4-5 nydus up at a time.

he has a shedload of builds, saw him use this against destiny

hes now using 13h 16p i believe
queens can block ramp, and spines cover extremities of the natural expansion

i'm still playing with it, much stronger than my more standard and normal builds .. and much much more fun to play with

Columc

He has used it a lot in other builds as well, he goes very infestor heavy, the build he did against destiny was mainly ultraslisk and around the 30-35 min mark he brought out the infestors.

He uses mass infestors against mech terran to try and take thors and tanks, but this cant easily be countered with ghosts and emp.

The builds he uses are very high level and requires a lot of micro, they are good to mess around with. But they are not viable against a good harass.

The_Keeper

I read on Reddit that the hard counter to this is to bring back the old 5-rax reaper. Harass with reapers, and even maybe throw down a factory to get reaper speed. The lack of gas from zerg means no speedlings or roaches to stop reaper harass.

Haven't come across anyone using this build myself so not sure the effectiveness of it.

phisku

edit: sometimes i should read

what the gentleman above me said

PurpleFistMixer

The_Keeper wrote: »

I read on Reddit that the hard counter to this is to bring back the old 5-rax reaper. Harass with reapers, and even maybe throw down a factory to get reaper speed. The lack of gas from zerg means no speedlings or roaches to stop reaper harass.

Haven't come across anyone using this build myself so not sure the effectiveness of it.

Would spinecrawlers not deal with reapers? Do reapers outrange them?

I did this build (sort of) in a 2v2 last night, it was awesome. People underestimate the power of mass queens.

The_Keeper

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Would spinecrawlers not deal with reapers? Do reapers outrange them?

I did this build (sort of) in a 2v2 last night, it was awesome. People underestimate the power of mass queens.

Spine crawlers will be mainly at the entrance so reapers can just go around and attack the mineral lines.

Even if you do have to take out some spinecrawlers, just wait till you have enough reapers and you can essentially one shot them. The zerg would need to transfuse the spine crawler with precision timing to try and keep it alive.

RoyalMarine

anyone got a link to this style of play? id love to watch some vid's!

pixelburp

I tried just the one game, against a Plat Terran. I won, but felt ... dirty just playing with 'lings, spine crawlers & queens for the initial 3rd of the game. He saw my early Hatch so most of the early game was holding off his marine blob, until my economy took off. This build has limited scouting, and feels like you have _0_ offensive capabilities for large portions of the game.

RoyalMarine, I got replays from this (googled) thread on TeamLiquid:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=207017

Pimp Ninja

This sounded interesting, so I had a look at a few youtube commentaries.

It looks awesome, there was one where a terran tried reaper harass, but he had 3 queens defending the hatch and it worked quite well, seemed very micro intensive tho.

He also held off a 4 gate with it as well.
Very very good play out of this guy.

VikingErik

I think spanishiwa has finally been able to show how over-powered zerg are when played the right way. It's never been as clear as now. I've seen about 10 matches of him using this build and it's ridiculous.

Fine, you probably need some amount of micro skill, but the basics of it look easy.

I've always felt when watching replays that Zerg units provide the most flexibility. And they have the speed and vision as long as creep is spread. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't zerg also have the most spell casters? (Infestor, queen, overseer, corrupter).

I will go as far as to say that with the fungal growth buff Protoss will be nearly helpless to this build. Protoss simply aren't able to defend on all fronts against drops (overlord have too much health), nidus and speedlings. Nor does protoss have any possibility to do counter attacks as the creep spread give all-around vision so hidden pylons are out of the question and warp prisms are too fragile with so many queens on the field.

I can only imagine mass phoenix doing any damage as they'd be able to pick up queens which apart from feedback is the only way to stop transfuse.

Apart from this I would imagine an imortal-zealot push could possible bust through that queen-zergling-spine defence but I know of no known "immortal-build".

I'm so glad I'm a bronze player and hopefully I won't encounter this any time soon.

I would love for Spanishiwa to enter the next GSL season and see how he fairs.

My main complaint really is that someone finally figured out how to utilize ALL of zerg and now the universe will be over-run :P

Jonny7

VikingErik wrote: »

I think spanishiwa has finally been able to show how over-powered zerg are when played the right way. It's never been as clear as now. I've seen about 10 matches of him using this build and it's ridiculous.

Fine, you probably need some amount of micro skill, but the basics of it look easy.

I've always felt when watching replays that Zerg units provide the most flexibility. And they have the speed and vision as long as creep is spread. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't zerg also have the most spell casters? (Infestor, queen, overseer, corrupter).

I will go as far as to say that with the fungal growth buff Protoss will be nearly helpless to this build. Protoss simply aren't able to defend on all fronts against drops (overlord have too much health), nidus and speedlings. Nor does protoss have any possibility to do counter attacks as the creep spread give all-around vision so hidden pylons are out of the question and warp prisms are too fragile with so many queens on the field.

I can only imagine mass phoenix doing any damage as they'd be able to pick up queens which apart from feedback is the only way to stop transfuse.

Apart from this I would imagine an imortal-zealot push could possible bust through that queen-zergling-spine defence but I know of no known "immortal-build".

I'm so glad I'm a bronze player and hopefully I won't encounter this any time soon.

I would love for Spanishiwa to enter the next GSL season and see how he fairs.

My main complaint really is that someone finally figured out how to utilize ALL of zerg and now the universe will be over-run :P

Let me have a wild guess here - you are a Protoss player having trouble with Zerg?

Actually, the general thoughts at the moment are that Protoss are currently strong against Zerg, due to fast phoenix etc

Spanishiwa would be pretty much annihlated in GSL

The build is quite good, check out int. with the guy from Day9
day9tv.blip.tv

pixelburp

If you don't have perfect micro & spine-crawler placement, this is a very precarious build I find; you're pretty much relying on a small ling force to hold back the other guy until your economy lets you steamroller him into submission. It just feels wrong. Zerg shouldn't be turtling, which in effect is what this is - a turtle build for Zerg. Zerg should be harassing and annoying the opponent ...

VikingErik

Jonny7 wrote: »

Let me have a wild guess here - you are a Protoss player having trouble with Zerg?

Actually, the general thoughts at the moment are that Protoss are currently strong against Zerg, due to fast phoenix etc

Spanishiwa would be pretty much annihlated in GSL

The build is quite good, check out int. with the guy from Day9
day9tv.blip.tv

Yeah, I watched half of the Day9 interview.

I don't have that much trouble with zerg as I mostly get to play T or P in my bronze league. And when I play zerg I either get owned by mutas through harrass or 6-pooled.

I mostly loose to terran but I'm know better than to call terran OP.

My reason for wanting to see this build in the GSL is to see how the pros would try to adapt to this strange build.

I know that "yelling" OP at the first sign of of a new build that catches players off guard is very "childish", but I've felt for a long time that zerg units are the most diverse and the way spanishiwa uses zerg mobility to the fullest.

I can't wait to see how Protoss pros will handle this. I play for fun so I don't mind this so much but I do believe this will lead to re-balancing by blizzard.

VikingErik

pixelburp wrote: »

If you don't have perfect micro & spine-crawler placement, this is a very precarious build I find; you're pretty much relying on a small ling force to hold back the other guy until your economy lets you steamroller him into submission. It just feels wrong. Zerg shouldn't be turtling, which in effect is what this is - a turtle build for Zerg. Zerg should be harassing and annoying the opponent ...

This build feels VERY zerg in my mind. Drone up/ exapand/ mass up/ destroy

Jonny7

VikingErik wrote: »

Yeah, I watched half of the Day9 interview.

I don't have that much trouble with zerg as I mostly get to play T or P in my bronze league. And when I play zerg I either get owned by mutas through harrass or 6-pooled.

I mostly loose to terran but I'm know better than to call terran OP.

My reason for wanting to see this build in the GSL is to see how the pros would try to adapt to this strange build.

I know that "yelling" OP at the first sign of of a new build that catches players off guard is very "childish", but I've felt for a long time that zerg units are the most diverse and the way spanishiwa uses zerg mobility to the fullest.

I can't wait to see how Protoss pros will handle this. I play for fun so I don't mind this so much but I do believe this will lead to re-balancing by blizzard.

Zerg early game is very stale and undynamic - this build is popular because it breathes some fresh air into it, its fairly easy-to-do and can leads to a more fun varied midgame. I'm not saying its a total gimic, it can be easily used at normal to diamond/low masters level to punish lazy terran/protoss macro players - however at the highest level? Spanishiwa regularily gets his ass handed to him on his stream, its pretty counterable.

However, if they leave him there, then yah they gonna have trouble midgame. Just like if I leave a protoss unmolested to get the deathball I am gonna have big trouble mid to late game.

VikingErik

Can someone link to Spanishiwa's stream.

Yeah, in my mind it seems like early pressure is the only thing that can break this build.

Curiosity question. When using the nydus, is there any delay between loading into the nydus and unloading? Does it take time for the units to get there or is it instant? I think there ought to be a delay, just like warping in units has a delay. Just my opinion though.

Pimp Ninja

VikingErik wrote: »

Curiosity question. When using the nydus, is there any delay between loading into the nydus and unloading? Does it take time for the units to get there or is it instant? I think there ought to be a delay, just like warping in units has a delay. Just my opinion though.

Dont play Zerg myself, but AFAIK there is no delay. Once the units are in, they can come out the far end.

There shouldnt be a delay in loading/unloading like warpgate. Warpgate is building the units, the Z has already done this at his hatch. Nydus, just moves the already built units from one area to another.

VikingErik

Pimp Ninja wrote: »

Dont play Zerg myself, but AFAIK there is no delay. Once the units are in, they can come out the far end.

There shouldnt be a delay in loading/unloading like warpgate. Warpgate is building the units, the Z has already done this at his hatch. Nydus, just moves the already built units from one area to another.

OK, I'm not looking to fight by my impression was that the cooldown on warpgates was production and then you just warp them in. In my mind "warp"=teleport.

Either way, I think moving units in an instant is a ridiculous concept to me. There should be some delay to all forms of transportation.

At least ALL units aren't unloaded in a single blob.

Pimp Ninja

Not looking to fight either. I'm still pretty bad at this game.

I think I understand what you mean, its the travel time thing?

Again, not a zerg player, but AFAIK, the zerg has to get an overlord or similar spotter to the location he wants the nydus, load up whatever units (as in take them off the map) , then build the exit for the nydus (not sure of build time) and unload.
So in my mind its not a bad thing.

VikingErik

Pimp Ninja wrote: »

Not looking to fight either. I'm still pretty bad at this game.

I think I understand what you mean, its the travel time thing?

Again, not a zerg player, but AFAIK, the zerg has to get an overlord or similar spotter to the location he wants the nydus, load up whatever units (as in take them off the map) , then build the exit for the nydus (not sure of build time) and unload.
So in my mind its not a bad thing.

Does it have to be an overlord?
Could a zerg player not just sneak a changling in there? Or a burrowed unit? Or a single mutalisk?
I don't play zerg so I have no idea what the cost or building times are for a nydus, does each exit cost something?

I'm a very low level [protoss] player as well, but I've watched so many replays and I've always felt like zerg have the most options for unit combinations. And infestors are way too good [neural parasite, infested terrans, burrow movement and fungal growth (does fungal uncloak units?)]. I don't know how little life they have or how much they cost but it seems ridiculous too me how versatile they can be. And their movement speed is pretty good compared to other spellcasters (if I'm not mistaken), exception being the phoenix but it isn't able to deal with most types of units like the infestor can. I understand that they are difficult to micro and none of this criticism will ever affect me as a player. I'm just voicing my opinion.

VikingErik

I know I've been running my mouth off a lot regarding this zerg issue, so I might just try learning enough zerg to attempt this build on bronze level.

I'll report back later, much later...

Columc

From Bronze to platnium level You really really really really dont look after build orders, get your mechanics down. Learn how to multitask, learn how to macro and micro. These advance builds dont work well for low players as they require a lot of game knowledge and a lot of mechanics.

ROOTDestiny has a replay pack up of going from Bronze to Plantium with going Mass Queens, the only units he built was Overlords/Overseers and Queens. And he won pretty much every game up to plantium(expcet 1) with doing this. Because his mechincs are extremly good.

He wanted to show people that build orders and startigies arent needed in low level games, any random start would work.

Practice on the game, play it the way you enjoy it and get better, befor putting yourself through these build orders that will cripple you if you get any bit of harhasement at the start of the game, just because you dont know wee to place your queens/ defend your ramp/ place your spine crawelers

VikingErik

Columc wrote: »

From Bronze to platnium level You really really really really dont look after build orders, get your mechanics down. Learn how to multitask, learn how to macro and micro. These advance builds dont work well for low players as they require a lot of game knowledge and a lot of mechanics.

ROOTDestiny has a replay pack up of going from Bronze to Plantium with going Mass Queens, the only units he built was Overlords/Overseers and Queens. And he won pretty much every game up to plantium(expcet 1) with doing this. Because his mechincs are extremly good.

He wanted to show people that build orders and startigies arent needed in low level games, any random start would work.

Practice on the game, play it the way you enjoy it and get better, befor putting yourself through these build orders that will cripple you if you get any bit of harhasement at the start of the game, just because you dont know wee to place your queens/ defend your ramp/ place your spine crawelers

All true what you are saying.
From looking at replays I think that this build really demonstrates the mobility of zerg and as a protoss defending against nydus, drops and ground attack seems impossible. And it only takes a few banelings to annihilate all mining at any base.

I'm not trying to be ignorant and pretend like this build is the end-all-be-all of protoss, but I think it could prove to be a struggle for whoever has to face this build.

On another note I don't feel like Protoss has any unit that can take down speed-overlords quick enough in smaller numbers. If anyone knows the maths I'd love to know how many stalkers or phoenix it takes to one-shot an overlord. Unlike terran who has loads of strong anti-air units.

I'm still very excited to try to learn zerg and try mass queen, nydus and baneling drops. I'm sure that macro with zerg is much tougher than with protoss.

seraphimvc

ya i saw all those games live but pity bnet didnt really promote him to plat even he was matching vs plat and he was bored doing that, else the theory would be proved perfectly. imo there is no way destiny can pull that off on eu server

NeoSlicerZ

There are some hilarious follow on builds using this one as the foundation... the double roach warren +1 timing attack into mass infestor. Has there been some zvp revolution btw? All I've been getting from zergs is infestor + x + broodlord while turtling on 2-3 bases... I drowned them in stalkers off 14+ gates.