16.5 week old baby up four times a night.

Dean3y

Hi,
I would appeciate help please.
Here is my baby's "routine" on a typical day. The level 3 teat helped one problem, but I still have to get up 4 times a night.

7am up - 5oz formula
8.45am - nap ( 50 mins)
9.40am - 4 oz
11.40am Nap ( 50 mns)
12.30pm - 4 oz
2.30pm - Nap ( 50 mins)
3.30pm - 5 oz
4.30pm - nap ( 30 mins)
6.00pm - 6 oz
7.00pm - bath
7.45pm - bed
10.30pm - 3 oz
12.30am - 4oz
2.45am - 4oz
4.30am - 3oz
7am - up

My health nurse has no advice really, only suggesting he gets too many naps during the day. And has bad habits. My baby was breast fed on demand for the first 2 months so I guess the bad habits started then.
Any advice???

liamo

Hi,

I don't agree with the "bad habits" explanation. I don't believe it's possible for a 4-month-old to have bad habits. He doesn't have habits, he has needs. He will sleep when he needs to and for as long as he needs to. Similarly, he will eat when he needs to and for as long as he needs to.

Your routine is not so different to ours. Our little girl is about the same age and takes perhaps 3 naps during the day of about 30-40 mins each. She will generally feed (breast) about every 3 hours which means a feed at about 10pm, 1am, 4am, 7am. And, if she's feeling particularly mean, she'll demand a feed at 6am and then decide it's time to get up!

Every now and then she will go 4.5 hours or so at night between feeds so we're starting to see a little light at the end of the tunnel. Perhaps in a month or so she'll sleep most of the night. Hopefully, your little guy will start sleeping longer soon.

Frank Black

Bad Habits’ might not be an appropriate term but of course it’s possible for a baby to develop habits – babies seem to like routines and these routines develop into ‘habits’
My only suggestions would be to change the bath time to 6.00pm.
Then change the final feed before bed to 6.30pm.
If you could change the first night feed from 10.30pm to 11.00pm perhaps you baby would be a bit more likely to have more than 3oz - again you ideally want him/her to be having around 6-7oz at this time which should be enough to get them through to 6.30 -7.00am the next morning.
Obviously if they are used to getting a couple of feeds at 2.45am and 4.30am they are going to wake up expecting them – but you are going to have to try and break this habit and settle them back without feeding – after a few (probably difficult) nights it should get easier as your baby becomes more used to the new routine.
Good Luck.

deelite

I was given this bit of advice when my son was 12 weeks old (he's now 13) - I don't know whether it would be relevant to yourselves but here goes if the baby's last feed is say 10:30 p.m. - when the baby wakes again at 2:30 a.m. give the baby warmed water (not forumla) - the theory behind this was "do you wake up at 2:30 hungry?" . I did this for about 4 nights and he then started waking at 5:30 a.m. but was taking 4oz or so on his last feed at night. Hope this helps and good luck.

xzanti

Would you consider giving him some baby rice or something during the day? Maybe he just needs something more than milk?

bubbaloo

It seems to me you are giving him too many bottles.
At 7am, could you give him more than 5oz - maybe 7oz? He might sleep a bit longer and then when he wakes you could try giving him more than 4ozs - maybe 7 again?

As for the night waking, have you tried NOT giving him the bottle? If you left him for a few minutes would he go back to sleep. I would think it's just habit and it could be broken, if you have the patience and perseverence to listen to him cry for a night or two.

Good luck.

Das Kitty

Does he have a dummy?

Moonbeam

I would def give him less bottles with more in them.

Dean3y

Thanks all. He does have a dummy, but only uses it for a minute before nodding off. He's not fooled by it
I can try the water trick... I did try it once about 3 weeks ago, but he screamed the place down.
I can't seem to get more than 5oz into him... I really do try! and will continue to try!

Yesterday,The health nurse gave me the go ahead to try one teaspoon of rice a day for the next month, so I flew to the shop for it. Tried it yesterday eve, he loved it...but he still woke as normal!

I havent tried controlled crying, ill try the water for a few nights first!

thanks all!

cowhands

My first thought aswell was that he was having lots a bottles. I would try giving him some solid foods now that hes over the 4 months mark, butternut squash, baby rice, mashed carrots, etc...try wean him off one one of the bottles and maybe increase the last bottle before he goes down to bed for the night.
I wish you the best of luck its a very hard time with little sleep, it will get better though.

Dean3y

OK, I will try to distract him as much as possible between feeds to delay them and get more into him. I should mention that he was 3 weeks 2days early, and doc says he may just be "a little and often" type of baby.
Ill give all these tips a good try over the next week, and hopefully will report back all the good news about my changed child!

How Strange

First off I don't subscribe to the notion of babies having 'bad' habits. The only people with bad habits are the parents and that's a general opinion of mine and not a comment specific to the OP. Just from looking at your routine, if your little lad is being fed at 10.30pm then he may not need the 12.30 feed. Perhaps him an extra ounce or two at 10.30 and see if that keeps him happy until 2.45.

My little lad is 11 weeks and for the last 4 weeks he sleep through from his last feed which could be 8.30, 9, 10 or sometimes 11.30 pm until 3am. I try to give him his last evening feed at 8.30 and then he's happy until 3am. 3am seems to be his waking time but on the rare occasion he'll sleep until 5am but as I said that's a rare treat!

My little lad is breastfed on demand so he sets the pace and that's the night time routine he's happy with.

Dean3y

How Strange: I am very jealous of your baby's sleep pattern
Well I just held him out for 45 mins longer than normal ( distracting him for that long is hard work) and he drank 6oz!!!!! That is a huge progress!!!!!!!He was so full though, he seemed drunk and now he is gone for a nap. I'll only let him nap for the usual 50 mins.

bulmersgal

Oh my 38 oz's is a lot off milk. My little girl was only drinkin 31 oz's and my phn said this was too much and to start food. I would start on the rice and being honest a teaspoon of rice isn't going to make much different. I'd gradually increase it and after a few days introduce a few carrots, sweet potatoe etc. I'd go buy annabel karmel book as its great for recipes. I didn't find the weaning made much different till we were on two good portions a day. Also I'd let her go every 4 hours before giving formula, if she wants a drink in between offer water as with the hot weather she could just be thirsty

Spiderman68

You're getting there. Sleep specialists argue that sleep is a learned behaviour. Like later learning, children learn at different rates. Important to separate feeding and sleeping . For example if I fall asleep on a bottle with nice music in background and lots of cuddles, when I awake I expect to find these props. If not present I scream. Therefore separate feeding and sleeping . Allow 20 to 30 mins after feed for some quiet time . Baby then learns feeding and sleeping are separate activities. Then they will LEARN to sleep. If someone offers me' a cup of coco each time I awake, I'm likely to keep waking. We all wake multiple times during night, but we've learned to get back to land of nod. Hope helpful. Good luck.

Dean3y

Thanks all,
There is already an improvement. We got a 5 hour stretch last night. He didn't look for midnight feed.
I held out this morning until he was hungry, instead of feeding him the minute he wakes.. and he took 7 oz!!!!!
I aslo agree with the feed, play, sleep routine. I have always done that, yesterday was a bit different, I just couldn't keep him awake after the extra ounces! But he is awake now after his 7oz, and will nap very shortly.
Thanks to all for the advice, it's already paying off. I have been doing everything wrong - always allowing him to drink bits here and there I didnt realise that if I perservered, he would actually drink more in one go. I get more help from boards than I do anywhere else!

bubbaloo

Yaay - good news OP.
Long may it continue.
(And you weren't doing everything "wrong" - you were doing your best, which is what we all do, and we learn as we go!)

Dean3y

Thanks bubbaloo, I am delighted it's going well so far!

xzanti

Dean3y wrote: »

I get more help from boards than I do anywhere else!

Here here, we found a cure for our little lads colic at 4 weeks here on Boards.ie.. saved him (and us) weeks of misery... Boards

Spiderman68

Great news. Baby will sense your relief too. Important now to stick with plan. As always some days will be better than others. Most Irish women wean to solids from age 4 months. WHO say 6 months but they're primarily focused on developing countries where weaning can be risky business as food preparation has significant contamination risk as often no running water. Remember introduce one food at a time.

bubbaloo

Spiderman68 wrote: »

Great news. Baby will sense your relief too. Important now to stick with plan. As always some days will be better than others. Most Irish women wean to solids from age 4 months. WHO say 6 months but they're primarily focused on developing countries where weaning can be risky business as food preparation has significant contamination risk as often no running water. Remember introduce one food at a time.

My PHN told me that the 6 month rule was only for babies who were exclusively breast fed! She said others should be put on solids at 4 months! My little man started them at 17 weeks and hasn't stopped since!!

angelfire9

bubbaloo wrote: »

My PHN told me that the 6 month rule was only for babies who were exclusively breast fed! She said others should be put on solids at 4 months! My little man started them at 17 weeks and hasn't stopped since!!

Our PHN said the same and that's what it said in the hse booklet she gave us

Starting aisling next week on rice we're so lucky with her she takes 4 bottles a day and sleeps 8 hours most nights going to give the rice around breakfast time so that her night time routine isn't interrupted

Spiderman68

We know from research in Dublin that majority intro solids at 4 months whether breast fed or not. Why should rules be different for breastfeeders. The area of weaning is an inexact science. Every country different recommendations. Delayed weaning may be dangerous if look at risk of coeliac disease and certain food allergies.

gowayouttadat

Agree with Spiderman. From 8 weeks to 6 months son was a terror for night waking. No matter how much milk or solid food he got during the night he'd wake religiously a few times a night. He had reflux initially which caused the waking, once we sorted that he continued to wake.
I know other posters have said there's no such thing as bad habits but son was definitely in the habit of waking. He also couldn't settle himself to sleep. He'd either fall asleep drinking his bottle or with his dummy. Then when he woke he didn't know how to put himself back to sleep.
I can honestly say that it was habit with him. We did one night of a kind of controlled crying and he was sleeping through.

Mod: Please read charter section regarding text speak - specifically the section regarding forum abbreviations such as DD, DS, OH etc. This post has been edited appropriately

LegacyUser

Spiderman68 - it is incorrect to suggest that late solids leads to problems. It is in fact the early introduction of solids that is not ideal for babies. Their digestive systems cannot cope with many of the foods that they are given, and they risk bowel problems later on. Early introduction of solids has also been linked to childhood obesity - this is evidence-based research, not myth. WHO and many other organisations recommend 6 months as the age to introduce solids for ALL babies, not for those in developing worlds and it has nothing to do with contaminated water (though this WAS a factor when pushing formula on mothers in the developing world). Food also does not have to be introduced one at a time when weaning at six months - it is because babies are not ready to digest food at 4 months that problems arise and advice such as "one food at a time" is needed.

Instead of being obsessed with babies sleeping for hours on end (which is purely to benefit the parent, not the child) perhaps it might be better to realise that babies have very small stomachs, that formula and breastmilk are digested very quickly and that in order to be nourished, babies NEED to wake to feed. This is why they have such short sleep cycles compared to adults. Indeed, expecting your babies to sleep through at a very young age is actually harmful as you are training them NOT to respond to their actual needs and in some of the things I've read here, some of you actually seem proud to be denying your babies food - blaming the baby for having "bad habits". This is tragic.

We are the only species that seems to expect our newborns and infants to behave like adults - in fact, we seem to expect MORE from them. If we wake in the night and want a quick glass of water, we get it. Why should a baby who wants a quick drink be dismissed as "manipulating" or as being a "bad sleeper".

The research is clear - babies wake up at night for all kinds of reasons, often they really do need something to drink. Look to your baby for what they need and stay away from Mammy's old wives tales.

Dean3y

Incorrect, thanks for the input!!! How/ why do you become a guest!?!!
I think you have misunderstood my query. "Instead of being obsessed with babies sleeping for hours on end" is a slight exaggeration. I simply want a better routine for my baby. For his sake- not mine

Das Kitty

~Incorrect~ wrote: »

Instead of being obsessed with babies sleeping for hours on end (which is purely to benefit the parent, not the child)

You say that like parents not being properly rested has no impact on the child! Sleep is hugely important to all humans for their mental health. And at 4 months a baby's stomach is not so small that he can only take 4oz at a time.

I'm sorry but I hate when people dismiss the needs of parents. They're needs, not wants.

Spiderman68

Incorrect not helpful. Without disclosing my identity, I manage young children each day in a university teaching hospital. To suggest my advice is ' old wives tales' insulting. I know my research and publish in peer reviewed journals. I hope our mum in question doesn't lose heart. She's taken informed advice and all well. Incorrect might like to Sign up to EAACI(European Allergy and Clinical Immunology Sociey) to learn fact. I'll be at annual conference Istanbul 11/15 June. See you there!

faw1tytowers

Might be a growth spurt at this stage. I would defo try feeding a 7oz and every 4 hours and introduce baby rice or breakdown liga with milk. What formula are you using? I think breast fed babies need the "hungrier babies" one. Some more stimulation and fresh air walks should tire baby out a bit too and get a proper nap. Hope things settle soon.

faw1tytowers

On the introducing solids issue. This changes constantly. My first baby 4 years ago was breast fed for 7 months. I introduced Liga and anything he liked at 4 months he wanted it.. that is what settled him. And no issues medically from it.

My last son born in 09 also breastfed 6 months was the same way.

They were both big babies born 8lbs10oz and 9lbs15oz. My first did not like rice so be prepared to buy a number of different flavors and consistences.

common sense brigade

the baby sounds normal to me. most babaies wake up at regular intervals during the night , gradually as he gets older and over 6 months it will get less and less.my baby did not sleep through the night till she age 1. that is why they call it, 'sleepless nights' when you have a baby. the baby does ot have bad habits that is rubbish. you should go with the flow until solids are properly established and you will find he will most likely start sleeping longer.

Moonbeam

Spiderman68 wrote: »

We know from research in Dublin that majority intro solids at 4 months whether breast fed or not. Why should rules be different for breastfeeders. The area of weaning is an inexact science. Every country different recommendations. Delayed weaning may be dangerous if look at risk of coeliac disease and certain food allergies.

From everything we are thought as new parents we are thought that early weaning poses greater risks of food allergies and bread before 6 months can increase the risk of coeliac disease greatly and before 1 increases the risk.
I am not questioning your knowledge as you say that you are an expert in the field but would be very interested to know more.

As for sleeping don't panic relax ,don't be too militant about she should do this at this time and this at this time and oh no her bottle is 10 minutes late, and oh now she hasn't done this yet. Pharmacists and Public health nurse are brilliant free resources.

Spiderman68

Apologise if confusion. Consensus is not always based on science. We have not weaned before 6 months therefore will continue to do so . There is emerging evidence that delaying introduction of wheat (after 6 months) may actually increase risk of coeliac. see bda.uk.com
Likewise we've always avoided nut in early life but food allergies continue to rise. In Israel they introduce 'nut lollies' in infancy to placate fractious kids. They don't have a problem with nut allergy. Personally I don't advocate nut in young children more for risk of aspiration rather than allergy issue.

I simply comment that practice is very different to recommendations. Irish women tend to wean earlier than 6 months . In my view and that of community no harm done. Solids should not be introduced before 4 months agreed.

How Strange

Dean3y, I'd just like to say thanks because as a result of your opening post showing the nap times etc I saw that I wasn't putting my little fella down for proper naps and that was probably why he was so cranky. I never realised they could get tired so quickly after getting up.

Now I put him down for naps throughout the day and it's like we have a totally different baba!

It's a pity they don't come with user manuals so we'd know what we're supposed to do!

Dean3y

How Strange wrote: »

Dean3y, I'd just like to say thanks because as a result of your opening post showing the nap times etc I saw that I wasn't putting my little fella down for proper naps and that was probably why he was so cranky. I never realised they could get tired so quickly after getting up.

Now I put him down for naps throughout the day and it's like we have a totally different baba!

It's a pity they don't come with user manuals so we'd know what we're supposed to do!

Awe that's good! ☺ a manual would sure be a good help! ☺
Things are improving for me too. I get 5.5hours straight at night now! Thanks to all for the help!

Dean3y

Hello all,
I might have been a bit premature with my comment above on how things improved- that might have been a fluke.

This is now my typical schedule: ☻
7.30am - up
8am 5oz and 1tsp rice
9.30am Nap 40 mins
10.30 2oz
11.15 1oz ( couldnt get him to drink more)
12.15 Nap ( while i took him out for a walk) 1.5hr
2.00 6.5oz
3.50 nap 40mins
5.30 apple & 2oz
6.30 bath
6.50 5oz
7.30 Finally went to sleep after a battle
8.30 Woke again looking for bottle- only took 1oz ( I know this is bad habit!)
10.50 1.5oz ( couldnt take more coz of wind that I cannot help him get up)
12.30 4oz
3.30 Tried water- no luck -so only gave 2oz
4.50 tried water again- no luck- screamed the house down- 2 more oz
6.00 Same story, 1 oz
7.10 awake for the day, and cannot take a full bottle- so far only 4oz

That's how yesterday panned out. I am trying everything. I perserver with bottles to get as much into him as possible during the day.
It's just getting worse. he goes for naps 3 times a day now, goes down in his cot no prob, but night time is so different since the clocks changed, its a battle ( i try the PU/PD....