Taoiseach promises "real scrutiny" in public spending

later12

The cabinet is signing off on a new 'root and branch' review of public spending which could be likely to impact upon public salaries and local authorities, as well as changes to how social welfare is assessed (although unlikely to alter rates.

Taoiseach promises 'real scrutiny' in public spending
- Irish Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0411/breaking4.html

My question is, if you were in cabinet, where you might be seeking to push for reforms, leaving aside the issue of public sector pay and welfare, both of which already get extensive, and contentious, coverage.

I'm asking that, if the moderators are agreeable, public pay and welfare might be left out of this thread because there are lots of threads on these issues, and it would be nice to have this debate without a constant public/ private pissing contest, or the labyrinth of welfare debate. Addressing these issues has merit, but doing it at the expense of other less discussed possibilities on public expenditure is sometimes unhelpful.

My own suggestions would be the reintroduction of means tested tuition fees credit system, the sale of non strategic state assets, (such as RTE transmission), the implementation of water charges with some means testing applied, and a property tax - the latter in particular to raise funds specifically for more empowered, and merged, regional as opposed to local authorities.
More generally, I would also support an end to the traditional method of assessing budgetary spending from the starting point of the previous year’s budget allocation which only leads to inevitably increased spends and poor management, a method recently criticised by the NCC.

Where would you seek to find the non-pay related, non welfare related public spending reforms?

sarumite

later10 wrote: »

My own suggestions would be the reintroduction of means tested tuition fees credit system

Means tested is the biggest con job going. I have never encountered a means tested anything where the means were actually fairly tested.

PeterIanStaker

They can start by cutting TD's salaries and expenses by even more, and abolish the Seanad, which has already recieved €158,000 in expenses for the month of February despite not having sat during that month.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0411/1224294400575.html

jank

Means testing child benifit and scrap rental allowance. Also food stamps instead of the dole.

RichardAnd

jank wrote: »

Means testing child benifit and scrap rental allowance. Also food stamps instead of the dole.

It's amazing how simplistic some people's view of the world is.

iMax

A friend of mine used to drive a taxi. A regular account of the company was the Taoiseach's office (this is back in the late Ahern/early Cowen days).

Once a week, they'd pick up two women at government buildings at 8am, drive up to the back of M&S & park there while the two women would go in & shop for breakfast product, then they'd drive them to farmleigh & drop them off & they'd sign the book. Usual fare was about €80 for the two hours.

Because of where farmleigh is, they'd normall be asked to return 90 minutes later to pick them up, or if they wished, they could park up, be given breakfast & use of the facilities while they waited (non chargeable) so they could clean the car etc. Fare back was usually about €25-30.

They were cooking breakfast for the party so they could discuss "off site". Not sure if it still goes on, but it's a deplorable use of funds if it does.

There was also a guy who'd order a car for 10am every morning from the DOF. He'd normally be about 20 minutes late. He went to Mount Street. The waiting time could be twice the fare for a walk of about six minutes.

Gonna unsubscribe from this thread now because these ones do my head in.

later12

sarumite wrote: »

Means tested is the biggest con job going. I have never encountered a means tested anything where the means were actually fairly tested.

Just because there are some instances where means testing clearly does not work as is presently executed - for example the third level grant, perhaps medical cards - obviously does not not accordingly follow that all means testing is 'the biggest con job going' or that it simply cannot work.

macannrb

It might be simpler to make child benefit a taxable income. The tax system is already in place, in comparision to a new means testing system

Huge savings could be made on a central purchasing using bulk purchase discounts, on big ticket items. The Gardai bought a load of new cars from Ford, and didn't bother to get any bulk discount, when any rational business man could have courted another vendor and gotten a discount

We have a hundred and one state and semi state bodies, all with overlapping admin systems. There could easily be massive savings to be made. Eg, each has its own payroll system which requires maintenance and operation. Why not streamline the systems, into one payroll system to reduce the costs of operating payroll. Standardise payroll conditions like, once a month etc etc, which would simplify the process. You would be surprised how much saving could be made by just doing that alone

There is virtually thousands of things the state could save on, but there seems very little incentive to achieve any savings at all

beeftotheheels

jank wrote: »

Means testing child benifit.

You know why this cannot be done, right?

The benefit belongs to the child as opposed to the parents and there are very few children in this country who would fail a means test since there are very few children with other sources of income (pocket money aside unless you're suggesting that €5 should be the cut off point).

I'm going to suggest the one that won't be touched precisely because it won't be touched and that offends me - the pensioners. I'm not suggesting we take 30% off them, or anything like it, but that one sector can be immune from taking any pain (other than that delivered by stealth) because they will take to the streets and no one wants to be the politician that takes a shilling off the old age pension is just wrong. If there is to be SW pain, it should be inflicted equally (other than on children).

In terms of auctions of non-strategic assets I think a lot of people would worry about firesale prices, the government's ability to run an auction, and worry about the Eircom example of debt pushdown curtailing capital spend. I think the rules should be made clear to everyone, we should be prepared to sacrifice a little on best price now vs functioning business later (only an issue where the asset is in a monopoly/ oligopoly like Eircom, not an issue with e.g. Power gen if you create real competition in the market).

jank wrote: »

Also food stamps instead of the dole.

I'm going to partially agree with this one. We could, in theory go with food stamps, as part of (say 10%), and not a replacement to SW in that food stamps might allow us to support domestic industries without running into EC law concerns.

Take butter vouchers. If you buy butter it is likely to be Irish, if you buy margarine it is more likely to be imported. Probably running the gauntlet on EC law, the butter example may be too clear cut (and thus fall foul of the EC rules) but you might get away with it. Not to make any huge difference to domestic industries, protectionism in a recession hasn't ever shown itself to be a great thing, more as a bit of a show of support and an example government can point to of SW circulating and benefiting the domestic economy.

Also, while it is Nanny Stateish it could direct people towards healthier eating e.g. vouchers to be used on Fruit & Veg will a) make people think about buying fruit and veg, and b) direct them towards cheaper local seasonal products rather than imported delicacies. We've gone nanny state on smoking, why not a nudge in that direction on diet for social welfare recipients. Diet is a big problem and weight causes a huge strain (if you'll pardon the pun) on the health system.

sarumite

later10 wrote: »

Just because there are some instances where means testing clearly does not work as is presently executed - for example the third level grant, perhaps medical cards - obviously does not not accordingly follow that all means testing is 'the biggest con job going' or that it simply cannot work.

So perhaps my own experience and knowledge of means tested benefits is not all encompassing, but I cannot think of a single instance where a method of means testing has worked. Its fair that describing it as a "biggest con job going" is perhaps an exaggeration, though I have no faith whatsoever that 'means testing' is a viable option. That said just because means testing has failed in every instance I can think of, doesn't mean it can't work.

later12

sarumite wrote: »

I cannot think of a single instance where a method of means testing has worked.

I can! I've just finished paying off my tuition fees and I finished college three years ago. It worked out at just over £12000 in my case. And unlike means testing for many things (everything?) in Ireland, including 'the grant', saying that your Dad is a poverty stricken farmer doesn't help:)

I think means testing can work, but you're right, we have a woeful record of doing it properly. Perhaps social welfare is an exception, but that's subjective.

beeftotheheels

later10 wrote: »

I think means testing can work, but you're right, we have a woeful record of doing it properly.

Which goes back to the comments on budgetary waste towards the end of financial years, lack of a coherent procurement policy etc and comes under the major reform of setting out clear rules which are drafted to take into account enforceability as well as aim, and then enforcing those rules!

Enforcing rules is one area where we really lag, partially because the enforcement was not considered when the rules were drafted.

We could call Peter Sutherland in for this. When he became the Competition Commissioner the EC competition rules were there, but no one paid much attention, hence the fact that that lowly portfolio was given to the Irish Commissioner.

He didn't get the basic rules changed, he got the enforcement powers changed e.g. the ability to conduct dawn raids etc and now Competition is one of the most powerful and sought after portfolios in the Commission. Because at least one Irish man realized that rules without proper enforcement are worthless.

I have two ideas that I think would work ...scrap child benefit and use the money to make education completely and utterly free for all families ...for example free uniforms, book, transport, everything in fact and provide a hot meal during the day for children... free third level education or training including free monthly bus pass for all third level students its a much better and fairer system in my opinion and puts every child at a equal level in school....

I posted this before but ....make every business that has government contracts provide good quality focused paid work experience ...for example you don't get a government funded grant or contract unless the above is part of your tender.

RichardAnd

mariaalice wrote: »

I have two ideas that I think would work ...scrap child benefit and use the money to make education completely and utterly free for all families ...for example free uniforms, book, transport, everything in fact and provide a hot meal during the day for children... free third level education or training including free monthly bus pass for all third level students its a much better and fairer system in my opinion and puts every child at a equal level in school....

I posted this before but ....make every business that has government contracts provide good quality focused paid work experience ...for example you don't get a government funded grant or contract unless the above is part of your tender.

I don't think scrapping child benifite would cover the cost of what you're suggesting.

later12

Indeed. It would in fact take the process of universal entitlement one step further. People can probably stomach yummy mummies receiving child benefit for their own financial control over their childrens' welfare if they are not already working - however the idea for paying for Sneachta and Fuinneog's Roast Guinea fowl and Brie-de-Meaux in Willow Park, or for their Ancient Greek conjugation books is, well, probably something that wouldn't go dow very well.

dan_d

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Which goes back to the comments on budgetary waste towards the end of financial years, lack of a coherent procurement policy etc and comes under the major reform of setting out clear rules which are drafted to take into account enforceability as well as aim, and then enforcing those rules!

Enforcing rules is one area where we really lag, partially because the enforcement was not considered when the rules were drafted.

We could call Peter Sutherland in for this. When he became the Competition Commissioner the EC competition rules were there, but no one paid much attention, hence the fact that that lowly portfolio was given to the Irish Commissioner.

He didn't get the basic rules changed, he got the enforcement powers changed e.g. the ability to conduct dawn raids etc and now Competition is one of the most powerful and sought after portfolios in the Commission. Because at least one Irish man realized that rules without proper enforcement are worthless.

To help - I have suggested before - the Depts should have to produce an "invoice" at the end of each year, or possibly every 6 months, that gets posted to every person in the State....showing the overall budget for each dept for the year, and detailing what percentage has been spent on what. Just one or 2 pages, they don't have to detail every pencil and piece of paper bought. As is done with local councils in other countries.

Rather than the system of money into a black hole that we currently have.

Later10.....Indeed. It would in fact take the process of universal entitlement one step further. People can probably stomach yummy mummies receiving child benefit for their own financial control over their childrens' welfare if they are not already working - however the idea for paying for Sneachta and Fuinneog's Roast Guinea fowl and Brie-de-Meaux in Willow Park, or for their Ancient Greek conjugation books is, well, probably something that wouldn't go dow very well.


Dose the chip on your shoulder show much?

Cookie_Monster

Rationalise the county councils, there is no need for 1 (or more) per country. It could easily be rationalised down to 4 provincial councils, one for Dublin city and on for Cork city. There is huge duplication of roles and responsibilities going on here.

Amalgamate all the various transport bodies back into the Dept of transport, there are so many various bodies to cover every aspect one sometimes wonders what left for the dept to actually do.

later12

mariaalice wrote: »

Dose the chip on your shoulder show much?

Eh, apologies, that particular sentence is an example of an exaggeration to illustrate a point - i.e. hyperbole. It isn't written to be taken literally. I don't give a toss if someone sends their kids to Willow Park or a caravan park to get educated.

beeftotheheels

dan_d wrote: »

To help - I have suggested before - the Depts should have to produce an "invoice" at the end of each year, or possibly every 6 months, that gets posted to every person in the State....showing the overall budget for each dept for the year, and detailing what percentage has been spent on what. Just one or 2 pages, they don't have to detail every pencil and piece of paper bought. As is done with local councils in other countries.

Rather than the system of money into a black hole that we currently have.

Or even a website which people could access with the option of having a paper copy.

A website with nice clear transparent numbers. Doesn't need to follow any GAAP (government accounts don't seem to anyway), it just needs to explain to people how much money came in, and where that was from, and where the money went out.

Get a junior cert business studies teacher to write a summary aimed at the average reader and off you go.

If this crisis is to teach us any lessons, one of them has to be that we hold our government to account, and that we investigate for ourselves what we are being told about the state of the economy. The government should facilitate this to make people feel included in the process.

Dannyboy83

RichardAnd wrote: »

It's amazing how simplistic some people's view of the world is.

What is wrong with those suggestions tho?

RichardAnd

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

What is wrong with those suggestions tho?

The origional post was this:

Means testing child benifit and scrap rental allowance. Also food stamps instead of the dole.

What's wrong with this? Well the first sentence is not unlike me say "I can go to the moon, I just need a rocket". It's facile, with regards to means testing because the obvious question is how are people tests, against what standards and who will carry out the tests?

Food stamps instead of money for the dole has been discussed in other threads. The problem with it is that, firstly, it's demeaning to people who are unemployed which is often no fault of their own and secondly, it's not practical if the person recieving them needs anything they don't allow him/her to "buy".

doc_17

A cvolleague of mine wants all dole recipients to recieve a credit card style payment with a limit on it and then have restrictions on what they can buy (ie no booze or cigs)....kind of like what some are suggesting.

jmayo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Rationalise the county councils, there is no need for 1 (or more) per country. It could easily be rationalised down to 4 provincial councils, one for Dublin city and on for Cork city. There is huge duplication of roles and responsibilities going on here.

Amalgamate all the various transport bodies back into the Dept of transport, there are so many various bodies to cover every aspect one sometimes wonders what left for the dept to actually do.

Last night the news had a feature on Donegal council, where they inverted the gender numbers from the usual 3 women and 26 men to 26 women and 3 men.

Now the point I take out of that piece, is now how many men to women are on the council, but why the fook does Donegal or any other county need so many councillors who affectively do feck all since the budget is controlled centrally.
Each councillor probably eats up on average 20,000 euro per year in expenses and other allocated resources.
That is a big waste of money.

Unpossible

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Rationalise the county councils, there is no need for 1 (or more) per country. It could easily be rationalised down to 4 provincial councils, one for Dublin city and on for Cork city. There is huge duplication of roles and responsibilities going on here.

Amalgamate all the various transport bodies back into the Dept of transport, there are so many various bodies to cover every aspect one sometimes wonders what left for the dept to actually do.

Unfortunatly the unions will try to pull another HSE stunt and not agree to the amalgamations unless there is a guarentee no-one gets left go.

Cookie_Monster

Unpossible wrote: »

Unfortunatly the unions will try to pull another HSE stunt and not agree to the amalgamations unless there is a guarentee no-one gets left go.

yeah but the thing to do this time is to tell them to fuck off if they try anything

jank

RichardAnd wrote: »

The origional post was this:





What's wrong with this? Well the first sentence is not unlike me say "I can go to the moon, I just need a rocket". It's facile, with regards to means testing because the obvious question is how are people tests, against what standards and who will carry out the tests?

Food stamps instead of money for the dole has been discussed in other threads. The problem with it is that, firstly, it's demeaning to people who are unemployed which is often no fault of their own and secondly, it's not practical if the person recieving them needs anything they don't allow him/her to "buy".

LOl, see that is what is wrong with the country when 3 relatively mundane social welfare type payments are met with a "It is like asking to go to the moon"!

I understand that the benefit goes to the child but the child is under the care of the parent who like it or not pays for its needs. If a child in a poor family needs the benefit then fine but if a child in a wealthy family is also getting a payment because its a child even though the family could afford its own full time nanny then scrapping these type of payments is like going to the moon? It is middle class welfare.

The dole should of course not be made entirely of food stamps, I should have clarified. People need to eat and that is where most of the dole payments should go. Maybe 50% food stamps 50% cash.

Rental allowance is a joke and is routinely exploited. It keeps the rent artificially high in the country. We need to get out of this entitlement culture in Ireland where the government will pay for everything and offers no incentives to get up and do something for your self. Remember at the height of the Celtic Tiger we had 4.5% unemployment even though thousands of eastern Europeans coming into the country to work, yet we still raised welfare rates.

One more thing I would scrap. One parent allowance, well maybe not scrap it but definitely enforce it. There are thousands of couples out there who are not married, living together yet are claiming this allowance. $hit or get off the toilet.

Basicly the government could not cut enough for me. Give me a week and I could cut 10 billion off the budget and to **** with the PS. Yea it would be tough for a year or two but nobody would starve. We dance around everything in Ireland, scared of our own shadows.

macannrb

jank wrote: »

LOl, see that is what is wrong with the country when 3 relatively mundane social welfare type payments are met with a "It is like asking to go to the moon"!

I understand that the benefit goes to the child but the child is under the care of the parent who like it or not pays for its needs. If a child in a poor family needs the benefit then fine but if a child in a wealthy family is also getting a payment because its a child even though the family could afford its own full time nanny then scrapping these type of payments is like going to the moon? It is middle class welfare.

The dole should of course not be made entirely of food stamps, I should have clarified. People need to eat and that is where most of the dole payments should go. Maybe 50% food stamps 50% cash.

Rental allowance is a joke and is routinely exploited. It keeps the rent artificially high in the country. We need to get out of this entitlement culture in Ireland where the government will pay for everything and offers no incentives to get up and do something for your self. Remember at the height of the Celtic Tiger we had 4.5% unemployment even though thousands of eastern Europeans coming into the country to work, yet we still raised welfare rates.

One more thing I would scrap. One parent allowance, well maybe not scrap it but definitely enforce it. There are thousands of couples out there who are not married, living together yet are claiming this allowance. $hit or get off the toilet.

Basicly the government could not cut enough for me. Give me a week and I could cut 10 billion off the budget and to **** with the PS. Yea it would be tough for a year or two but nobody would starve. We dance around everything in Ireland, scared of our own shadows.

I ge the feeling the politicians want to do the same, don't have the political backing, and are waiting for the IMF to force their hand

kuntboy

Governments are inherently wasteful and always have been and will be, even in wartime.

macannrb

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Or even a website which people could access with the option of having a paper copy.

A website with nice clear transparent numbers. Doesn't need to follow any GAAP (government accounts don't seem to anyway), it just needs to explain to people how much money came in, and where that was from, and where the money went out.

Get a junior cert business studies teacher to write a summary aimed at the average reader and off you go.

If this crisis is to teach us any lessons, one of them has to be that we hold our government to account, and that we investigate for ourselves what we are being told about the state of the economy. The government should facilitate this to make people feel included in the process.

I think this Idea should be championed. The information is being access anyway by freedom of information requests in some cases.

The UK is bringing in a schemem where all purchases are being put up on their websites. Probably a bit too far, but the idea is right.

Its amazing what accountablity will do to get people to make the right decision instead of just the easy decision

RichardAnd

jank wrote: »

LOl, see that is what is wrong with the country when 3 relatively mundane social welfare type payments are met with a "It is like asking to go to the moon"!

You've utterly missed the point I was making.

jank

RichardAnd wrote: »

The origional post was this:





What's wrong with this? Well the first sentence is not unlike me say "I can go to the moon, I just need a rocket". It's facile, with regards to means testing because the obvious question is how are people tests, against what standards and who will carry out the tests?

Food stamps instead of money for the dole has been discussed in other threads. The problem with it is that, firstly, it's demeaning to people who are unemployed which is often no fault of their own and secondly, it's not practical if the person recieving them needs anything they don't allow him/her to "buy".

Well 2nd point I did clarify that is should be a mix of stamps and cash, as of peoples feelings well so ****ing what.. they are getting fed and looked after by the state. Of course its not nice but what do you want, give them more money so that they feel good about themselves?

First point is just a strawman argument. You are saying so that because there is no benchmark set as of right now to indicate who would get child benefit and who would not get child benefit, then we cannot implement it!?

As I said scared of our own shadows.

Sleepy

macannrb wrote: »

I think this Idea should be championed. The information is being access anyway by freedom of information requests in some cases.

The UK is bringing in a schemem where all purchases are being put up on their websites. Probably a bit too far, but the idea is right.

Its amazing what accountablity will do to get people to make the right decision instead of just the easy decision

As someone working in that sphere (The UK Open Information is something we've actually got a meeting on later) it's actually remarkably easy to implement.

This also feeds into suggestions for nationalised procurement: if all purchasing is published by each PS body, the data can be aggregated very easily (using the VAT/Company Reg No of the Supplier) and used to determine where potential exists for the government to leverage it's purchasing power against a supplier

e.g. Dept. for Local Govt. saying to Microsoft "we spend x million a year with you on support and maintenance for software package abc, we want a better deal on that" versus individual councils negotiating with them on the basis of x thousand a year contracts.

dan_d

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Or even a website which people could access with the option of having a paper copy.

A website with nice clear transparent numbers. Doesn't need to follow any GAAP (government accounts don't seem to anyway), it just needs to explain to people how much money came in, and where that was from, and where the money went out.

Get a junior cert business studies teacher to write a summary aimed at the average reader and off you go.

If this crisis is to teach us any lessons, one of them has to be that we hold our government to account, and that we investigate for ourselves what we are being told about the state of the economy. The government should facilitate this to make people feel included in the process.

An even better idea!!

They do it all over Europe.We're miniscule compared to some of those countries.No reason that we can't do it too.

Simples.

Dept of Education - Budget for year ending Dec 2010 - X million eur

Expenditure
Wages - y% (= T,00,000 euro)
Light/Heat/electricity - h% (= U,00,000 euro)
Transport ....
etc, etc

Budget for Schools
X
Y
Z

etc,etc

Any other incomes....
X
Y
Z

(not enough letters in the alphabet!!!)

I've no doubt that's simplistic, and we'd be told it's too complicated to do. But to my mind....keep it simple. It's only as complicated as you make it. Anyone with half a brain who's used to drawing up reports could do it. The tricky bit initially would be making it user friendly, and gathering all the data. For the years after that it's simply a matter of plugging in the numbers.

But then our Gov doesn't do simple......

There's no doubt though, this won't happen unless we demand it. It's our money.We've a right to see how it's spent.