Water charges

kop77

I know this has been discussed to death but with Fine Gael announcing last week that meters will be installed into every household in the state does that include those with private wells? I know up untill now it didnt and maybe I misheard Matt Cooper the other evening but I took it that yes all houses will have meters installed.

Thanks,

Tora Bora

kop77 wrote: »

I know this has been discussed to death but with Fine Gael announcing last week that meters will be installed into every household in the state does that include those with private wells? I know up untill now it didnt and maybe I misheard Matt Cooper the other evening but I took it that yes all houses will have meters installed.

Thanks,

How is the government to know, whether or not I have a private well on my property:eek:

jester77

Would it really matter?

If you are not using any water from the mains where the meter is reading then your meter will just sit at 0, thus no cost.

Idbatterim

why even bother installing the meters? we are broke, the upfront cost will be considerable, then meter reading will have to take place etc. just charge a bloody flat rate, its another tax, just going into the communal pot.

Robxxx7

jester77 wrote: »

Would it really matter?

If you are not using any water from the mains where the meter is reading then your meter will just sit at 0, thus no cost.

Until they then decide lets put a standing charge on every household and then whether you use the water or not you still end up paying something.

Idbatterim

we are already paying for water, it just doesn't have its own tax! this tax is just going to go into the same pot as the rest of the taxes!

Scofflaw

Idbatterim wrote: »

we are already paying for water, it just doesn't have its own tax! this tax is just going to go into the same pot as the rest of the taxes!

True - there's no ring-fencing of taxes under Irish law, and in the sense that water in general is paid for out of the tax take, you're right. However, a metered charge is more equitable, as well as giving an incentive to reduce usage/wastage.

I appreciate the idea of rising taxes is a new and unwelcome development to many people, but there really isn't another option for the next few years.

cordially,
Scofflaw

manic mailman

Idbatterim wrote: »

why even bother installing the meters? we are broke, the upfront cost will be considerable, then meter reading will have to take place etc. just charge a bloody flat rate, its another tax, just going into the communal pot.

Charging a flat rate is taking the easy way out - some people make grossly overuse water while other may be sparing with it. so it's exactly equitable if they were both to be charged the same amount.

I know it's probably just another excuse for a tax so they can receive a better tax take but water charges should be implemented if only for the sake of getting people to cop on and stop wasting it in the first place.

View

Idbatterim wrote: »

we are already paying for water, it just doesn't have its own tax! this tax is just going to go into the same pot as the rest of the taxes!

Not necessarily. If the government sets up a semi-state (or semi-states) to supply water to households, there could be a water charge for this service, not a water tax. As such, the monies raised would go to the semi-state(s) account(s), not to the central exchequer's "tax pot".

As for the "we are already paying for water" comment, that is really debatable given the amount of money we are borrowing. Arguably, the tax payers in the other EU member states are paying for our water (and/or other public services) because we seem to have a major problem of living within our budgetary means.

tenchi-fan

The government just want to create a few jobs for the people who will be fitting the meters, and then charge people even more tax. That's all. It doesn't matter what financial hardships suffered by people either from the cost of installing the meters or the additional cost to a household in paying water charges.

Idbatterim

I appreciate the idea of rising taxes is a new and unwelcome development to many people, but there really isn't another option for the next few years.

I agree, if they tried to raise the same amount they from water charges through PS cuts or welfare cuts, PAYE increases, there would be blue murder, my point is, I wish they would just call a spade a spade.

Charging a flat rate is taking the easy way out - some people make grossly overuse water while other may be sparing with it. so it's exactly equitable if they were both to be charged the same amount.

some people grossly abuse their positions, some defraud welfare, some pay for more tax than others and receive no better services, reckless banks bring the country to its knees and there are no consequences, pensioners haven't taken cuts, 50% of workers pay no PAYE,there is nothing fair in life. Is it fair that someone will be exempted from paying the water charges, because the person who is working, is subsidising them and on top of that having to pay for his or her own water?

Cookie_Monster

Idbatterim wrote: »

we are already paying for water, it just doesn't have its own tax! this tax is just going to go into the same pot as the rest of the taxes!

Depends how it's done.
Money paid to ESB and BG does not simply go into the tax pot, it should be the same with water costs IMO.
The water infrastructure in this country needs huge investment to bring up to standard (especially pipework), treating it like Elec or Gas is the best way to accomplish this. Create a setup like ESB, a networks side and a customer service & provider side.

Tora Bora

tenchi-fan wrote: »

The government just want to create a few jobs for the people who will be fitting the meters, and then charge people even more tax. That's all. It doesn't matter what financial hardships suffered by people either from the cost of installing the meters or the additional cost to a household in paying water charges.

Didn't Siemens offer to install the meters free of charge up front, and have them paid for over X years, once the govn't started to get an income stream.
Why the fcuk, we didn't take up that offer only the PS managers know

Tax SMS messages ASAP. Easy money.

Attach all court fines to a persons PPS number, and collect all fines through the tax system. Stop all this evasion of paying fines and mindless waste of money trying to collect same.

Allow people within 10 years of retirement who have built up a pension fund through AVC's. to cash in a part of that fund immediately. Tax it at a beneficial rate say 10%. Money gets into the economy, and govn't gets a windfall tax.

Bring in immediate and draconian measures to combat social wefare fraud. It is totally rampant. Billions can be saved.

later12

Tora Bora wrote: »

Tax SMS messages ASAP. Easy money.

I agree with this. Fine Gael will argue that this would be a form of double taxation, because VAT already applies to text messaging, although they typically don't oppose property tax or excise charges on alcohol on the very same basis.

jmayo

Idbatterim wrote: »

why even bother installing the meters? we are broke, the upfront cost will be considerable, then meter reading will have to take place etc. just charge a bloody flat rate, its another tax, just going into the communal pot.

Johnny who has 5 in family with 6 bathrooms, washes his two cars every other week, showers twice a day and changes the water in his pond every week, pays the same as willie who is single, never washes his one car (bar for weddings and funerals), has one bathroom and baths once a week.
Yeah that sounds fair. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw wrote: »

... However, a metered charge is more equitable, as well as giving an incentive to reduce usage/wastage.
...

Holy sh** I actually whole heartedly agree with you for once. :eek:

Can somone clarify if people with private water supplies and those who are connected to private group water schemes are going to be landed with water charges ?

If that is the case then these people should bill the local authority for any maintenance and upgrades to their systems.

Dannyboy83

I'm in favour of a water tax, it will drive down the price of property.

But it does seem a bit like rearranging deck chairs mostly.

The average wage is 31k per annum, about 2k net per month.
If the government take more money for water, property tax, Universal Household charges......... it just leaves less money for other stuff.

On the brightside, if we are taxed directly for our water, we can sue the fcuking arses off them when it's shown to be full of oestrogen and god know what else like in Galway.

Offy

Idbatterim wrote: »

some people grossly abuse their positions, some defraud welfare, some pay for more tax than others and receive no better services, reckless banks bring the country to its knees and there are no consequences, pensioners haven't taken cuts, 50% of workers pay no PAYE,there is nothing fair in life. Is it fair that someone will be exempted from paying the water charges, because the person who is working, is subsidising them and on top of that having to pay for his or her own water?

Im a pensioner and I HAVE taken a cut, your facts are incorrect.

Tipp Man

Not sure what all the fuss is about. I have a water meter, my folks have a water meter, my brother has a water meter, in fact I think nearly every one of my neighbours has a meter.

some people in this country are actually paying for water at the moment! Amazing isn't it

the sooner everybody coughs up for what they use - the better (have recently installed a well;))

jmayo

Tipp Man wrote: »

Not sure what all the fuss is about. I have a water meter, my folks have a water meter, my brother has a water meter, in fact I think nearly every one of my neighbours has a meter.

some people in this country are actually paying for water at the moment! Amazing isn't it

the sooner everybody coughs up for what they use - the better (have recently installed a well;))

Who provides your water ?

kop77

kop77 wrote: »

I know this has been discussed to death but with Fine Gael announcing last week that meters will be installed into every household in the state does that include those with private wells? I know up untill now it didnt and maybe I misheard Matt Cooper the other evening but I took it that yes all houses will have meters installed.

Thanks,

So getting back to my earlier question, are houses with private wells going to be metered according to the Fine Gael announcement last week?

Lu Tze

jmayo wrote: »

Can somone clarify if people with private water supplies and those who are connected to private group water schemes are going to be landed with water charges ?

If that is the case then these people should bill the local authority for any maintenance and upgrades to their systems.

If you are on a private group water scheme you are already paying for water. I know there have been moves to transfers some of these schemes onto the public supply.

If you have your own well/spring/water supply you will not be metered. Meters will only be placed on local authority infrastructure supplying water to your house, if you don't have a supply pipe from the local authority you can't be metered.

And just as an FYI, water meters a required under the water framework directive from the EU, we (and the UK) have already had a derogation of this requirement for over 4 years. The only reason this hasn't already been implemented is it would have cost FF votes.

bijapos

Scofflaw wrote: »

True - there's no ring-fencing of taxes under Irish law, and in the sense that water in general is paid for out of the tax take, you're right.

I don't want to digress on this thread, while I understand that you are far more educated on political and constitutional issues than myself, I always thought that Article 11 of the constitution, though rarely implemented, actually made it possible to direct tax revenue to be spent in a certain way.

Article 11
All revenues of the State from whatever source arising shall, subject to such exception as may be provided by law, form one fund, and shall be appropriated for the purposes and in the manner and subject to the charges and liabilities determined and imposed by law.

donal_cam

I ain't paying. Supposedly they're bringing these in to conserve water (:rolleyes:), and it will be very expensive to roll out metering across the country- far better to invest that money in upgrading the pipe system than in putting in meters, and if water conservation is a problem then they should invest in a programme of installing rainwater harvesting. I think they're planning to set up an Irish Water Company to put in charge of the water supply, so I have suspicions that this is a privatisation by increments plan, as happened with the bin service- roll out metering, set up this company, put in place a free usage allowance, start off with a small charge etc then privatise it and watch the bills rise. If any company wants to stay in business it has to maintain profitability, and so if it raises bills to try and increase profits, we'd be stuck in a vicious circle of decreasing consumption and increasing prices as they make up for falling consumption by raising prices.

Tipp Man

jmayo wrote: »

Who provides your water ?

South Tipp Coco

And i'll tell you its like a service that coco the monkey would run

We were without water for 48 hours the weekend of the Wales Ireland rugby match because the council plumber was in Cardiff for the game and they couldn't afford/be bothered to get a replacement in. Hard to run a business that needs water in those circumstances

Scofflaw

bijapos wrote: »

I don't want to digress on this thread, while I understand that you are far more educated on political and constitutional issues than myself, I always thought that Article 11 of the constitution, though rarely implemented, actually made it possible to direct tax revenue to be spent in a certain way.

You're quite right - ring-fencing is possible under the Constitution, but I'm not aware of any current provision under the Finance Acts for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

jmayo

Tipp Man wrote: »

South Tipp Coco

And i'll tell you its like a service that coco the monkey would run

We were without water for 48 hours the weekend of the Wales Ireland rugby match because the council plumber was in Cardiff for the game and they couldn't afford/be bothered to get a replacement in. Hard to run a business that needs water in those circumstances

That is where penalties should apply on the contract of supply.
But of course I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

Cookie_Monster

Scofflaw wrote: »

You're quite right - ring-fencing is possible under the Constitution, but I'm not aware of any current provision under the Finance Acts for it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

which goes back to my point, don't tax it, run it as a service like elec. then it can easily be ringfenced
I don't understand why they'd want to do it any other way anyway in the long run.

View

donal_cam wrote: »

I ain't paying.

I remember lots of people saying they'd never pay bin charges - oddly though when the "Final Demands" came in, they paid up like everyone else as they didn't want to face the alternative.

donal_cam wrote: »

I think they're planning to set up an Irish Water Company to put in charge of the water supply, so I have suspicions that this is a privatisation by increments plan,

If the will of the democratically elected representatives of the people is that the all new "Irish Water Company" should be privatised, then this is what will happen. There is no constitutional requirement that the state must run the water service so it is a political decision as to how the service should be provided.

The electorate can all vote "Socialist Worker" if they object to the concept of a privatised water service. I doubt most people will see it as a crucial issue at the end of the day though.

galwayrush

I know of one farmer in my area who's water charge for the year was heading for 12,400, so he sunk his own well for less than 10K. I can see many others doing the same.

donal_cam

View wrote: »

I remember lots of people saying they'd never pay bin charges - oddly though when the "Final Demands" came in, they paid up like everyone else as they didn't want to face the alternative.

Well we'll have to wait and see won't we. In any case, they'll have to come on my property to install the meter- they won't get past the gate.

If the will of the democratically elected representatives of the people is that the all new "Irish Water Company" should be privatised, then this is what will happen. There is no constitutional requirement that the state must run the water service so it is a political decision as to how the service should be provided.

It's in the public interest that our water supply be provided publically: there are plenty of examples of badly run privatised, for-profit water supplies all over the world. Ask the Bolivians about it. On that basis, Article 43.2 provides that the State will delimit private property rights (in the fields of provision of services, planning permission etc) where the public interest requires. This is one of those cases.

The electorate can all vote "Socialist Worker" if they object to the concept of a privatised water service. I doubt most people will see it as a crucial issue at the end of the day though.

Voting changes nothing: if they come to cut me off, I'll reattach it and concrete over the valve so the bastards can't get back into it. I don't need the SWP to help me doing that, just my neighbours- if we all organised community campaigns of self help, we could easily defeat any government that tried to implement them.

View

donal_cam wrote: »

Well we'll have to wait and see won't we. In any case, they'll have to come on my property to install the meter- they won't get past the gate.

Well, when drafting the legislation the government can take a leaf out of the UK and give you two options:
i) No meter = High or Very High Flat Rate Charge (The default set-up),
ii) Meter = Low or Medium Rate total charge (based on usage after you opt for a meter).

Refuse to install a meter and you default to the option i) high water charges. It would be your choice then as to which set of charges you want.

True, there might need to be an inspection system for rural people with their own well but that could be done fairly easily (for a small inspection fee to pay for testing the water quality).

donal_cam wrote: »

It's in the public interest that our water supply be provided publically:

That is a matter of opinion - the democratically elected representatives of the people may not share that opinion when the time comes to vote on it.

donal_cam wrote: »

On that basis, Article 43.2 provides that the State will delimit private property rights (in the fields of provision of services, planning permission etc) where the public interest requires. This is one of those cases.

The relevant verb in that article in may, not must. The state is not obliged to delimit the exercise of rights - it may choose to do so if it wants.

donal_cam wrote: »

Voting changes nothing: if they come to cut me off, I'll reattach it and concrete over the valve so the bastards can't get back into it.

Well, that constitutes vandalism. A court might not send you to jail for failing to pay your debts (i.e. the water charges), but damage to public (or private) property - that I suspect would be a different case. And when it really comes down to it how many of your neighbours would want to risk a spell in prison over what would be the law of the land?

Lu Tze

donal_cam wrote: »

View wrote: »

Well we'll have to wait and see won't we. In any case, they'll have to come on my property to install the meter- they won't get past the gate.


It's in the public interest that our water supply be provided publically: there are plenty of examples of badly run privatised, for-profit water supplies all over the world. Ask the Bolivians about it. On that basis, Article 43.2 provides that the State will delimit private property rights (in the fields of provision of services, planning permission etc) where the public interest requires. This is one of those cases.



Voting changes nothing: if they come to cut me off, I'll reattach it and concrete over the valve so the bastards can't get back into it. I don't need the SWP to help me doing that, just my neighbours- if we all organised community campaigns of self help, we could easily defeat any government that tried to implement them.

They will not be installing the meter on your property but on public side of the property boundary. Hence they need no access rights etc.

There are also plenty of examples of poor service delivered by public sector, why one could even come up with an example such as the current water supply system! Things are running much smoother in the UK now that it is privatised (and semi state in Scotland). Quality standards are actually being met, and the regulator ensures they are constantly improving and reinvesting in the system.

These are things which do not occur here for the most part. I'm just trying to understand why the resentment towards privatisation? Depending on where you are in the country you may be drinking water treated by a private company - have you died yet? Have they shut you off? No.

Plenty of DBO treatment plants went in across the country over the last 10 years or so - so enough with the hysterical over reacting about privatisation.

goose2005

Idbatterim wrote: »

why even bother installing the meters? we are broke, the upfront cost will be considerable, then meter reading will have to take place etc. just charge a bloody flat rate, its another tax, just going into the communal pot.

Surely it's fairer to charge heavy users more than light users? Also, these meters will help to track leaks.

recedite

donal_cam wrote: »

if they come to cut me off, I'll reattach it and concrete over the valve so the bastards can't get back into it. I don't need the SWP to help me doing that, just my neighbours- if we all organised community campaigns of self help, we could easily defeat any government that tried to implement them.

Why not pour concrete into your electricity meter box now? Same logic.


"In advance of the introduction of water charges, the government will have undertaken an independent assessment of transfer of responsibility for water services provision from local authorities to a water utility, and prepare proposals for implementation, as appropriate with a view to start charging in 2012/2013".
That's an excerpt from IMF Memo of Understanding with Irish Govt.
If you have any complaints, address them to AJ Chopra. He's in charge.