STOP-PRESS-Luas Shocker !!

AlekSmart

Well Holy God,it took a while for the píngín to drop down at RPA HQ......

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/nowhere-to-park-so-luas-extension-misses-targets-2615374.html

Tom Manning and the lad`s must`nt subscribe to Boards

What`s particularly interesting in this little bit of RPA PR puffery is the total lack of reference to existing BUS services to the Line and particularly the inability of RPA/Dublin Bus/Dunloe Ewart to get Buses alongside Trams á lá the developed world.....

The situation is ,of course compounded by Dublin Buses retreat from it`s original proposal to have a 30 minute schedule on the 84 route from East Wicklow terminating at Cherrywood Luas...not worth a mention,Tom ?......odd that....

There remains a vast amount of integration still available in this location for PROPERLY Integrated Bus/Luas services but it appears we as a nation are incapable of seeing or appreciating it....instead we read of the RPA and it`s "Private Landowner" partners yet again looking to the Private Car for salvation......Face-Palm anybody..???? :mad:

For those on phones:

Nowhere to park so Luas extension misses targets



By Aideen Sheehan

Monday April 11 2011

A €300m Luas extension will fail to meet its passenger targets this year because it still has no park-and-ride facilities in place, six months after it opened.

And the Irish Independent has learned that it will be autumn at the earliest before any parking facilities come on stream for commuters on the Cherrywood extension to the Luas Green line in south Dublin.

Some 25,000 passenger journeys a week are being made on the 7km stretch of light rail from Sandyford to Cherrywood, according to new figures obtained from Luas operators the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA).

However, this is well short of the 40,000 journeys a week needed to reach the two million-passenger target set down for the first year of operation of the line which opened last October.

RPA spokesman Tom Manning said passenger uptake was being hampered by the lack of parking facilities, which were delayed by planning and contractual difficulties.

"It is absolutely a factor in limiting passenger numbers and we are very frustrated these park-and-ride facilities are not yet there, but we are doing our best to progress them," he said.

Compulsory

The RPA said the economic downturn had been a big factor in lower passenger use, and they were now aiming to have 1.8 million passenger journeys on the Luas extension in its first year, banking on a surge in passenger numbers in the summer.

And Mr Manning said the potential was seen in the 30pc increase in passenger numbers during the cold spell last December and January.

A 350-car facility at Carrickmines -- given the green light by Dun Laoghaire Rathdown County Council -- has been delayed until a final agreement on the lease and contractual arrangements is reached with the private landowner, he said.

The council was also considering an application for a 200-place park-and-ride facility near the Cherrywood Terminus by developers Dunloe Ewart.

Another application from Park Developments for a 390-car facility on Ballyogan Road was also in the planning stages, and there was one further application for a 60-car park-and-ride facility close to that.

Mark Gleeson, of Rail Users Ireland, said it was disgraceful that major pieces of infrastructure were put in place without the facilities needed to use them to their full capacity.

"It's a disgrace that six months on there's still no park and rides, and these Luas carriage just empty out everywhere west of Leopardstown because there's nowhere for passengers to park," he said.

Mr Gleeson said the RPA should issue compulsory purchase orders on the land for park and rides and develop them themselves because, while working with private landowners might seem cheaper, facilities ended up getting bogged down in legal disputes.

He welcomed the fact that the council had cut planning levies on park-and-ride facilities to speed up their provision.

- Aideen Sheehan

Irish Independent

CIE

Well well well. Ireland's so car-mad that the Luas can't succeed unless...people can drive to it. Social engineering turned upside-down? Great way to encourage traffic jams too rather than discourage.

MarkR

CIE wrote: »

Well well well. Ireland's so car-mad that the Luas can't succeed unless...people can drive to it. Social engineering turned upside-down? Great way to encourage traffic jams too rather than discourage.

I presume it's for people who don't want to walk for 30 minutes / an hour every morning and evening after getting back to the station.

The Orb

CIE wrote: »

Well well well. Ireland's so car-mad that the Luas can't succeed unless...people can drive to it. Social engineering turned upside-down? Great way to encourage traffic jams too rather than discourage.

So let's say somebody lives in Rathmichael, how do you propose they get to the Luas? Are you seriously proposing that to use public transport it is implicit that you may not use a car to get to it? Perhaps people can get there on horseback and tie up their trusty steed at the new Ride and Ride stables soon to be built.

Cookie_Monster

reducing 84 frequency AND pulling the 7 out totally in the ND review...
what more can you say, transport hub my arse.

I work in Cherrywood, thankfully close enough to cycle or drive, I remember the opening week several car drivers coming up to me as I was coming from the staff car park and asking me where they could park. Most were pretty shocked that no facilities were provided, with a few muttering under their breath that why even bother getting it then.

The damage to a large extent has been done, even if the put 500 spaces in Cherrywood many people will still drive cos they're disillusioned with it and the process involved at the time. Why somebody doesn't get off their arse and make use of the massive amounts of wastleand in Cherrywood is beyond me, even if it is only a temp 5 year car park, easy money to be made there short term...
That and the fact that by road Sandyford and Cherrywood are 3/4 mins apart but by Luas they are 20, it's just too slow.

corktina

CIE wrote: »

Well well well. Ireland's so car-mad that the Luas can't succeed unless...people can drive to it. Social engineering turned upside-down? Great way to encourage traffic jams too rather than discourage.

would people using the P&R not REDUCE congestion assuming they are using the LUAS instead of driving into the City.?

zagmund

It seems like a total disaster. As cookie asks - could 'they' not use any of the huge empty spaces in Cherrywood on a temporary basis ? It's not like the place is awash with construction activity at the moment. These lots are just empty.

For those not familiar with the area here's a view that puts it into context - http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cherrywood,+dublin&aq=&sll=53.344104,-6.267494&sspn=0.143476,0.307274&g=dublin&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cherrywood,+Dun+Laoghaire,+County+Dun+Laoghaire,+Ireland&ll=53.245161,-6.146593&spn=0.008988,0.019205&t=h&z=16

The developed part of Cherrywood goes from centre-top to bottom-right. The "future European HQ of Mega Corp" part is the rest of the frame. The LUAS station is at the bottom of the screen.

There is so much empty space there that it's not funny. I'm sure you would be clamped on the roads around there yet there's loads of space that you can't use. To paraphrase someone - "parking, parking everywhere, but not a spot to use."

As also indicated above, the amount of time it takes to trundle from Cherrywood to Sandyford (doing the hokey-cokey with the M50) compared to driving it (on the M50) is crazy, when you take into account the parking problems.

z

Cookie_Monster

zagmund wrote: »

There is so much empty space there that it's not funny. I'm sure you would be clamped on the roads around there yet there's loads of space that you can't use. To paraphrase someone - "parking, parking everywhere, but not a spot to use."

z

yep, 120 quid a go in the Ind est if you've no permit :eek:

unlikely to get clamped over on the road into Tullyvale, but that's chock a block these days as it's the only place you can park legally

dowlingm

LUAS stops (and DART stations) should be mobility hubs to the extent space allows -

• cycle racks (both bike sharing and private bikes)
• car sharing
• PPUDO (passenger pick-up and drop-off)
• feeder buses (preferably with integrated ticketing)
• a taxi stop (for people not visiting the area)

zagmund

Off topic, I know, but the use of PPUDO reminded me of the lack of such things at the nearest thing to a hub that we have in Dublin - Connolly/Busaras. We have trains, LUAS and intercity, commuter and city busas all in the one place here. We even have international buses there.

It may have changed recently, but a while back I went to drop some people to an early morning bus out of Busaras and I couldn't work out where to drop them off. I drove around the building twice and eventually pulled up in a bus bay and (of course) got blown by a bus that wanted to pull in.

There was no sign of where you could safely and legitimately drop someone off. I could have driven around a 3rd time and headed off towards Clontarf and also not been able to pull in there because of the buslane all the way out of town.

It's crazy there's no PPUDO point. God, that's a great word . . . PPUDO.

z

dowlingm

zagmund wrote: »

God, that's a great word . . . PPUDO.

In non-technical documents it's generally referred to as "kiss and ride" in these parts.

dynamick

Forecast traffic for this section was 235,000 passengers per week by 2016.

Actual numbers: 25,000. I expect this is less to do with parking and more to do with the shortfall of expected office and residential developments completed along the route.

It is disappointing that a temporary carpark can't be magicked up.

Amalgam

CIE wrote: »

Well well well. Ireland's so car-mad that the Luas can't succeed unless...people can drive to it. Social engineering turned upside-down? Great way to encourage traffic jams too rather than discourage.

You're turning the situation somewhat.. it is perfectly acceptable to expect adequate 'Kiss & Ride' facilities (car parks basically..), as found in Europe and the US. The lack of facilities just pushes the problem onto the wider community.

Make your way down to Cherrywood during the evening commuter rush to see the effect of hopeless planning. The fairly narrow road down from the 'walkway' is totally unsuited to having a barrage of 4WD's waiting for someone to make their way off a tram.

dowlingm

dynamick wrote: »

It is disappointing that a temporary carpark can't be magicked up.

Ideally you'd give NTA powers to authorise it notwithstanding the local authority but the DDDA shows why that's a BAD idea - when it comes to land use and planning in Ireland no amount of public scrutiny is enough.

As for temporary lots, there are a number of issues - will it be concrete/tarmac or grass pavers? If concrete/tarmac, where will draining water go? If grass with metal or plastic supports/pavers are there issues about hydrocarbons leaking from parked cars into nearby watercourses? Is there adequate entry/exit junctions or will a traffic light/garda be required?

I wonder if there are any nearby (5 minute drive or so from stops) vacant buildings with underused parking from which a "free" shuttle bus (if you paid for parking) could run?

superelliptic

I just hope they dont make this same mistake with the new spur into citywest that they're opening in july.:rolleyes:

AlekSmart

dynamick wrote: »

Forecast traffic for this section was 235,000 passengers per week by 2016.

Actual numbers: 25,000. I expect this is less to do with parking and more to do with the shortfall of expected office and residential developments completed along the route.

It is disappointing that a temporary carpark can't be magicked up.

Notwithstanding the article`s preoccupation with CAR parking (or lack thereof) I still see far greater opportunity being missed by the refusal of every official or quasi offfical body to thump some heads at Dublin bus here.

There is a vast hinterland of Ballybrack,Shankhill,Sallynoggin and on out to Bray and beyond where I`m confident that 25,000 figure could be doubled in very short order IF Dublin Bus were to put a similar amount of effort as it has into madcap schemes such as Network Direct.

The 7,59,63,84 and 111routes are all trundling around in a completely ad-hoc manner out there attempting to "serve the entire community" and managing ever more to serve less and less of them...get it together ffs,there`s a huge amount of goodwill and enthusiasm out there IF a product can be offered,and I contend that product is already 90% complete.

All thats missing is interest and enthusiasm from Public Transport planners and providers who as yet operate within totally disparate time-zones !!!

The CAR issue in this really is a red-herring as turning Cherrywood into some form of huge parking-lot surely ain`t the answer either...unless you happen to own the land on which the plain people want to park....?

antoinolachtnai

One thing often forgotten is that car parking is not a free service to provide. You need the land, you need to somehow upgrade it to provide a hard service and drainage and so on, and you need to provide some level of supervision, if only so you can collect a charge.

You might be as well using the money to develop an appropriate feeder bus service. However, to make it work, you would need to have an appropriate ticketing offer, the right cost base and appropriate vehicles for that sort of service.

AlekSmart

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

One thing often forgotten is that car parking is not a free service to provide. You need the land, you need to somehow upgrade it to provide a hard service and drainage and so on, and you need to provide some level of supervision, if only so you can collect a charge.

You might be as well using the money to develop an appropriate feeder bus service. However, to make it work, you would need to have an appropriate ticketing offer, the right cost base and appropriate vehicles for that sort of service.

+1 to that,but in this case the vast majority of the infrastructure is already in existance,with the Luas being the newest aspect of it all.

The Dublin Bus melange however,suffers from a comprehensive lack of understanding about what it`s supposed to be doing,compounded by a long-standing ability of the Political Classes to rummage around in the melting pot.

The is just SO much opportunity going a-begging out there in Cherrywood.....virgin territory with so much available space it`s unreal...and we are rooted to the feckin spot..."Crikey lads,what the hell will we do now ?"

The Tram and Bus should be seperated only by a Platform Width....none of this short-stroll nonsense....make it easy and the transfers will happen,make it difficult and it`ll never come close.

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

Tom Manning and the lad`s must`nt subscribe to Boards

Small detail Alek but the apostrophe is two keys to the right of the L key on your keyboard.

DWCommuter

AlekSmart wrote: »

+1 to that,but in this case the vast majority of the infrastructure is already in existance,with the Luas being the newest aspect of it all.

The Dublin Bus melange however,suffers from a comprehensive lack of understanding about what it`s supposed to be doing,compounded by a long-standing ability of the Political Classes to rummage around in the melting pot.

The is just SO much opportunity going a-begging out there in Cherrywood.....virgin territory with so much available space it`s unreal...and we are rooted to the feckin spot..."Crikey lads,what the hell will we do now ?"

The Tram and Bus should be seperated only by a Platform Width....none of this short-stroll nonsense....make it easy and the transfers will happen,make it difficult and it`ll never come close.

And herein is an obvious example of where the NTA (which should really be the DTA) are failing miserably in what people expected them to be about. Basic integration going a begging and the result is.......:rolleyes:

CIE

corktina wrote: »

would people using the P&R not REDUCE congestion assuming they are using the LUAS instead of driving into the City?

No, because local traffic is greatly increased. Instead of fighting this local auto traffic to reach the Luas which doesn't have the capacity of the DART and is slower than the DART, guess what people are going to say? "I'm already in me car, so let me get away from this mess and drive the rest of the way"...and on top of that, you're giving reduced transport choices with the Network Direct debacle reducing the number of buses to/from the city in the areas of question. Crawling in traffic to a Luas P/R can be just as damaging to one's car as crawling in traffic into the city; the problem is with trying to get into and out of park/ride lots, you can't build access that's ever adequate to prevent cars from being completely stopped for long periods of time, so those engines are going to heat up a lot more than on a slow drive into the city.

the orb wrote: »

So let's say somebody lives in Rathmichael, how do you propose they get to the Luas? Are you seriously proposing that to use public transport it is implicit that you may not use a car to get to it? Perhaps people can get there on horseback and tie up their trusty steed at the new Ride and Ride stables soon to be built

Why would they want to go to the Luas when Shankill station's far closer? (And that's aside from the fact that if your destination is not the city but instead places like Dundrum or Ranelagh, the former Shankill connection to that line is gone forever thanks to the lines being two different rail modes now.)

And frankly, if the ethos of public transport is supposed to be to induce you to leave your car at home (you see, I'm not "seriously proposing" such a thing; the EU is), why encourage driving to it anyway? The closest bus to Rathmichael is on the Bray Road too, but they've been reducing the number of 45s (and eliminated the 84s into the city) in the vain thought that the already-packed 145 will be able to replace them all. Bus connections to/from these railway stops are very poorly thought out, if thought out at all.

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

Small detail Alek but the apostrophe is two keys to the right of the L key on your keyboard.

"Tom Manning and the lads mussent subscribe to Boards"

FMP for ya N 97 Mini.

Cookie_Monster

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

One thing often forgotten is that car parking is not a free service to provide. You need the land, you need to somehow upgrade it to provide a hard service and drainage and so on, and you need to provide some level of supervision, if only so you can collect a charge.

As UCD (among others) have proved repeatedly over the years, just throw gravel down on top of any surface, job done for at least 6 months

Cookie_Monster

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Tram and Bus should be seperated only by a Platform Width....none of this short-stroll nonsense....make it easy and the transfers will happen,make it difficult and it`ll never come close.

And could easily be, the approach road to Bride's Glen is huge and could accommodate a turning bus, it's also a cul de sac and security monitored after hours so would be safe, spacious enough to turn and provide a terminus less than 30m from the trams rather than the 400+ now

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

"Tom Manning and the lads mussent subscribe to Boards"

FMP for ya N 97 Mini.

Sorry to be a pedant, but sometimes my work requires me to do UNIX shell scripting which is really the only place ` belongs imo. The rest of the time the simpler, single-key-press ' does nicely.

Jaysoose

Love the old "economic downturn" gets mentioned as a cop-out in the article..surely the downturn added to petrol prices would encourage people to use public transport more!? Only in Ireland can a transport system that should be cleaning up can they make such a monumental balls up of every aspect.

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

As UCD (among others) have proved repeatedly over the years, just throw gravel down on top of any surface, job done for at least 6 months

Too bloody true Cookie_Monster,and they are still at it,although it is VERY interesting to note that the NTA decided to object to the UCD development plan on this very basis.

What we appear to have here with the RPA is yet more unwillingness on the part of Public Transport Providers to put some welly into trying to replace at least some Private Motoring journeys with Public Transport ones.