Homosexuality in the media

virmilitaris

Hey all,

I recently introduced my wife to the BBC show Torchwood (John Barrowman is one of my favourite actors and plays the lead character) if any of you know it and she was quite surprised to see homosexuality portrayed so clearly on it. In her country (She's Asian) this would be unthinkable.

I think that of all the countries in the world and of all the world's media outlets that the BBC are miles ahead of the rest in this respect.

I've read up a bit on the reasoning that some stateside media outlets have given for not portraying it and the reasons have been very poor. I think the major one I've come across has been that the majority of viewers want to see the lead characters involved in a romantic relationship they can identify with and since the majority of viewers are almost always hetrosexual that's what they go with. I call bollox on this. It's a nonsense excuse.

So I'm interested in how people here view the media and it's portrayal of homosexuals. Do you think the media can be useful in finally rubbing out homophobia and which countries and which major media outlets do you think are the best in this way ?

Endymion

Watch HBO shows. Every other character is gay.

virmilitaris

Endymion wrote: »

Watch HBO shows. Every other character is gay.

Which ones ? Mustn't be my genre because I can't think of any.

Buceph

virmilitaris wrote: »

Which ones ? Mustn't be my genre because I can't think of any.

The Wire has probably the coolest example of a gay man anywhere. Omar, who robs drug dealers, but lives by a moral code to only go after those "in the game" who happens to be gay. And not in a stereotypical way, or a token gesture way, things happen because of the reality of him being gay. And he gets no less respect because of it. Also, there's Kima, who is a lesbian. Has a long time partner, and decides to have a child with her, then things happen. And Rawls, the police captain who may be gay. But the only reference to it is a brief shot of him in a gay bar, and "Rawls is a ******" scrawled on one of the station's bathroom walls.

Endymion

Buceph wrote: »

The Wire has probably the coolest example of a gay man anywhere. Omar, who robs drug dealers, but lives by a moral code to only go after those "in the game" who happens to be gay. And not in a stereotypical way, or a token gesture way, things happen because of the reality of him being gay. And he gets no less respect because of it. Also, there's Kima, who is a lesbian. Has a long time partner, and decides to have a child with her, then things happen. And Rawls, the police captain who may be gay. But the only reference to it is a brief shot of him in a gay bar, and "Rawls is a ******" scrawled on one of the station's bathroom walls.

Exactly what I was thinking. HBO was the first TV network to my mind that portrayed gay people, just as people. Well ahead of BBC in that regard. Sure in Oz (another epic HBO show) homosexuality featured heavily, all be it a different sort.

Asry

I've heard that the Wire and Torchwood are meant to be brilliant, and I've never had the desire to watch them before. Generally television really doesn't interest me. But now I have a reason to get downloading!

Buceph

Endymion wrote: »

Exactly what I was thinking. HBO was the first TV network to my mind that portrayed gay people, just as people. Well ahead of BBC in that regard. Sure in Oz (another epic HBO show) homosexuality featured heavily, all be it a different sort.

I think The Wire is just a cut above any other show out there. They don't portray characters, they show people. In other shows (things like The Shield) it's very easy to see the good guy/bad guy divide. Gang bangers are all stupid and heartless. In The Wire, everyone is human and has good and bad sides, things that motivate them and things that annoy them. They can be intelligent or stupid, or determined or whatever. With the gangs you come away from it thinking about why they joined the gang, what their motivations were and how they're no less human because of it. Look at Stringer, one of the head honchos of the gang, who is quite averse to violence, but peddles tens of thousands of dollars worth of crack, and who is studying for a degree in economics at night college. What other show would have a character like that?

The Wire is brilliant, if your reason to watch it would be to see human portrayal of gay people, then so be it. But the show is worth watching purely because it's such a good portrayal of humanity (and drugs, gangs, kids growing up in ghettos, and actual police work and politics associated with it.)

For those who have watched it... Bubbles walking up the stairs. Best moment ever.


Asry: A lot of people have trouble with The Wire for the first few episodes. Stick with it, they're setting up the most amazingly intricate interplay of themes and ideas of any show ever to have aired. When you reach the end of the first season you'll see how the elements have linked up and you'll be enthralled. Watch it to the final season and you'll see things that seemed to make no sense in the first few episode, be explained and become important in the last few episodes.

Endymion

Asry wrote: »

I've heard that the Wire and Torchwood are meant to be brilliant, and I've never had the desire to watch them before. Generally television really doesn't interest me. But now I have a reason to get downloading!

Well The Wire is excellent TV full stop. The realism is what makes it, everything feels genuine.

Aoifums

I think the Whoniverse in general is pretty gay friendly. John Barrowman + Chris Eccleston =
And Shakespeare flirting in season 3 was amazing.

Chuchoter

Aoifums wrote: »

I think the Whoniverse in general is pretty gay friendly. John Barrowman + Chris Eccleston =
And Shakespeare flirting in season 3 was amazing.

When is the Whoniverse coming back for that matter? I miss Karen Gillan! :P

I think its great that there are now more shows with LGBT characters, but at times I think they leave a lot to be desired. Like as much as I love Greys Anatomy, I think Callie and Arizona's relationship is bizarre, but then again most of thats down to that Callies always been like that with everyone she's been with.

AndrewJD

crayolastereo wrote: »

Like as much as I love Greys Anatomy, I think Callie and Arizona's relationship is bizarre, but then again most of thats down to that Callies always been like that with everyone she's been with.

It is all a bit strange. I wonder if Grey's fans could tell me something...

On a much, much higher frequency than other shows, gay characters (relatives, main characters, patients) show up in different forms. Particularly when they appear as patients, I get this uncomfortable feeling I'm being pandered to. That they're only having these characters (and there've been a fair few of them) because they know it's a fairly core audience, and they want to appease us by showing how 21st century they are. I know it's quite illogical to complain that there are too many gay characters in a show (especially when the threads about there not being enough :pac:) but I wonder if anyone else feels a bit paranoid about it? A sort of pseudo-tokenism, if you will.

Chuchoter

I don't think we should count them if they are only in and out things like criminals on CSI or patients or whatever, because in which case its generally only being done to add a bit of shock/unusualness to the story.

Aoifums

crayolastereo wrote: »

When is the Whoniverse coming back for that matter? I miss Karen Gillan! :P

April 23rd
So do I. Can I add Amy flirting with Amy to the list of awesome moments?

ninty9er

The Germans have a soap called Verbotene Liebe based around 2 gay guys. I don't watch it, but I do know of it and I think the storyline is somewhere along the lines of the 2 guys adopting at this stage.

Killer_banana

I've only seen bits and pieces of Torchwood (I keep meaning to watch it but I never get around to it) but forom what I've seen it seems to be a pretty good depiction of homosexuality. Is Torchwood aimed at kids like Doctor Who or is it more 'adult'?

As for Grey's, I think it does okay (although I've only started watching again recently). I don't particularly like the Callie/Arizona/Mark storyline simply because I think people might think that it means bisexuals can't be satisfied by just one gender but then again people have been getting that idea long before this storyline so either way it probably won't make a difference. And AndrewJD, I get what you mean, it does sometimes feel like the Grey's creators are using gay patients e.t.c to scream 'Look, look! Someone who's not straight and whose storyline isn't directly linked to their sexuality! Isn't that amazing? Aren't we so openminded?' It does sometimes feel recently so I'm just wondering, did they always have quite so many minor gay characters or is it recent? Because I remember reading somewhere that after Callie's last girlfriend got written out they got accused of not treating gay characters the same as straight ones.

Speaking of medical dramas, I like how House portrays Thirteen's sexuality for the most part. I'm not sure if I'm in the minority though (I've heard complaints here and there). I'm definitely in the minority when it comes to liking her character in general.

AndrewJD

Killer_banana wrote: »

I've only seen bits and pieces of Torchwood (I keep meaning to watch it but I never get around to it) but forom what I've seen it seems to be a pretty good depiction of homosexuality. Is Torchwood aimed at kids like Doctor Who or is it more 'adult'?

It's aimed squarely at the adult and young adult (late teens I'd say) market. I'd agree with you and other posters, it's a pretty good depiction.

Killer_banana wrote: »

As for Grey's, I think it does okay (although I've only started watching again recently). I don't particularly like the Callie/Arizona/Mark storyline simply because I think people might think that it means bisexuals can't be satisfied by just one gender but then again people have been getting that idea long before this storyline so either way it probably won't make a difference. And AndrewJD, I get what you mean, it does sometimes feel like the Grey's creators are using gay patients e.t.c to scream 'Look, look! Someone who's not straight and whose storyline isn't directly linked to their sexuality! Isn't that amazing? Aren't we so openminded?' It does sometimes feel recently so I'm just wondering, did they always have quite so many minor gay characters or is it recent? Because I remember reading somewhere that after Callie's last girlfriend got written out they got accused of not treating gay characters the same as straight ones.

I think it's mildly increased in incidence, I don't recall it (or seeing it as a problem) in the first few seasons. As for Erica Hahn, don't even get me started on the ridiculousness of that one.

Aard

I watch CSI (yeeeeaaaaah!) and I too often think "...why did we need to know that s/he is gay? I now feel mildly uncomfortable, and am thinking about homosexual issues rather than following the gripping narrative." I think it has to do with shock that there's actually a gay character on the screen whose sexuality isn't being mentioned every ten seconds.

Aoifums

Aard wrote: »

I watch CSI (yeeeeaaaaah!) and I too often think "...why did we need to know that s/he is gay? I now feel mildly uncomfortable, and am thinking about homosexual issues rather than following the gripping narrative." I think it has to do with shock that there's actually a gay character on the screen whose sexuality isn't being mentioned every ten seconds.

I'm kind of the opposite. I adore Criminal Minds but I'm kind of bored with all the straight characters. They've had a handful of gay characters (and one who was trans but I'm not sure if that counts because that character had multiple personality disorder or something) Their crimes are always linked in with their sexuality and it's just not done well and cringeworthy.

mikemac

The Shield did a storyline on this.
The rookie cop Julian was gay and realy struggling with himself. Very religious and believed he was committing a sin

Met with his pastor and went on some program to turn his life around and change him. Met a lovely women and settled down.
In the end though it becomes known he was gay in the station for which he takes a lot of abuse and in the end, a beating

Booon

I think gay people's 'dar pings too much when watching d'telly and all they remember from an entire season is the 2 central lazerbeam characters and 3 or 4 gay randomers... in the context of 24 hours of television or thereabouts, I wouldn't go so far as to say one gay couple and a few gay randomers is "pandering"!

And Callie and Arizona have had major screen time this season, but it's been an interesting storyline... I'm sure their relationship is going to reach a plateau and next season they'll get that McDreamy and his drip of a beure some silly storyline.

I'm not a major Grey's fan and I definitely do not follow it properly, but in my opinion the Callie and Arizona storyline is the only storyline that would make me switch on!

AndrewJD

Booon wrote: »

I think gay people's 'dar pings too much when watching d'telly and all they remember from an entire season is the 2 central lazerbeam characters and 3 or 4 gay randomers... in the context of 24 hours of television or thereabouts, I wouldn't go so far as to say one gay couple and a few gay randomers is "pandering"!

My point wasn't really an issue of volume, nor was it an issue based on much rational thought. Personally I've no problem with Callie etc as it is. That's not what I'd call pandering. It's all good in the hood with that one. It was just the randomers that turn up every now and again which make the show seem to scream "we're inclusive! Look! Gays!". That was all.

baby and crumble

personally I think it does more to enhance gay visibility if the minor characters are sometimes gay, just randomly. It returns it to being normal, so that not every gay person has 'an issue'. Of course it's nice when you have a great central gay character or characters like in Glee, or Buffy, or whatever. But the central characters are usually 'struggling' with their sexuality or something to do with it at some point. That can lead people to think that all gay people struggle with things.

edwinkane

zoegh wrote: »

personally I think it does more to enhance gay visibility if the minor characters are sometimes gay, just randomly. It returns it to being normal, so that not every gay person has 'an issue'. Of course it's nice when you have a great central gay character or characters like in Glee, or Buffy, or whatever. But the central characters are usually 'struggling' with their sexuality or something to do with it at some point. That can lead people to think that all gay people struggle with things.

Nowadays, to be gay is to be reasonably normal. I'm not sure why anyone wants to "enhance gay visibility", anymore that a nurse might want to enhance nurses visibility, and so on. Anyone who deduces, from a fictional character struggling with sexuality, that all gay people struggle with things, might be said to have issues themselves with being unable to distinguish between fiction and reality. Why worry about what such people think?

baby and crumble

edwinkane wrote:

Nowadays, to be gay is to be reasonably normal. I'm not sure why anyone wants to "enhance gay visibility", anymore that a nurse might want to enhance nurses visibility, and so on. Anyone who deduces, from a fictional character struggling with sexuality, that all gay people struggle with things, might be said to have issues themselves with being unable to distinguish between fiction and reality. Why worry about what such people think?

because believe it or not, a huge number of people take their cue from things like tv and movies. it's not about being able to distinguish reality from fiction, it's about modelling desirable behaviour. If all of a sudden the bad guys in movies came from any and all countries as opposed to predominately the Middle East, then a lot of the negative stereotypes ascribed to Muslims, for example, would lessen.

And I'd imagine quite a few nurses would like to challenge the way they are portrayed in the media and especially in tv- 'slutty nurse', anyone? It's a stereotype that's reinforced by certain shows.

edwinkane

zoegh wrote: »

because believe it or not, a huge number of people take their cue from things like tv and movies. it's not about being able to distinguish reality from fiction, it's about modelling desirable behaviour. .

Of course its about distinguishing fantasy from reality. Are you really saying that your views are informed by fiction, and that you are not able to separate entertainment from reality?

Chuchoter

edwinkane wrote: »

Of course its about distinguishing fantasy from reality. Are you really saying that your views are informed by fiction, and that you are not able to separate entertainment from reality?

I think media has a huge part to play in peoples understanding of groups they might not run into in everyday life and its been used all throughout history to make groups look really good or really bad. I think its important also for people who are cut off from anything related at all to being gay, to be able to say well they're on the TV so there must be more people out there like me.

baby and crumble

Of course its about distinguishing fantasy from reality. Are you really saying that your views are informed by fiction, and that you are not able to separate entertainment from reality?

No, I'm not saying that, at all. I am very capable of doing so. As are most people who don't have a psychological disorder. What I AM saying is that the effect for many people of seeing a regular depiction of some minority they have had no personal contact with will effect the way they then view that minority. Nobody is saying, for example, that Sian and Sophie from Coronation St are real people. However, the fact that they are on tv, on a very popular show watched by millions of regular people who may never have come into contact with a person they knew was gay, has meant that some peoples assumptions of what a lesbian actually is have changed.

It is known that knowing one gay person lessens a persons chances of making derogatory remarks by a pretty big degree. A character on tv that people relate to is similar to knowing them. Nobody says they are actually your friend, but you see them on a weekly basis, doing their thing. therefore, it becomes a positive force in how people view gay people.

Booon

edwinkane wrote: »

Nowadays, to be gay is to be reasonably normal. I'm not sure why anyone wants to "enhance gay visibility", anymore that a nurse might want to enhance nurses visibility, and so on. Anyone who deduces, from a fictional character struggling with sexuality, that all gay people struggle with things, might be said to have issues themselves with being unable to distinguish between fiction and reality. Why worry about what such people think?

Well let's not compare our sexuality to a profession that one chooses to enter, eh?

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to enhance gay visibility. I don't know what age you are, but I've only seen an increase of gay characters across all genres since the noughties.. Before that if you wanted to see gay characters on tv, you might be limited to a certain genre.. Now it can be a happy coincidence that your favourite show features a few queers. Like zoegh said, a positive portrayal of gay people on television can have a positive impact on how gay people are regarded in real life..

Killer_banana

Aoifums wrote: »

I'm kind of the opposite. I adore Criminal Minds but I'm kind of bored with all the straight characters. They've had a handful of gay characters (and one who was trans but I'm not sure if that counts because that character had multiple personality disorder or something) Their crimes are always linked in with their sexuality and it's just not done well and cringeworthy.

Well in fairness CM has a lot of straight people whose crimes are linked to their sex and sexuality as well although I agree, they're pretty behind compared to a lot of shows. I just think the writers don't seem to know how to incoporate sexuality without it being directly linked to the storyline at hand. As for Adam/Amanda I wouldn't call him trans character since Adam didn't even know of Amanda's existance.

Chuchoter

Aoifums wrote: »

I'm kind of the opposite. I adore Criminal Minds but I'm kind of bored with all the straight characters. They've had a handful of gay characters (and one who was trans but I'm not sure if that counts because that character had multiple personality disorder or something) Their crimes are always linked in with their sexuality and it's just not done well and cringeworthy.

I've sort of noticed that with CM too. That show is terrifying though, I'm not afraid of any other TV program/movie but Criminal minds. I always end up watching it alone, at 1 in the morning while I'm babysitting in someone else's house and I just end up convinced there is some insane rapist or arsonist outside the window.:P

From the few episodes I've seen of Cold Case, they don't seem too bad, they did one called 'Boy Crazy' about this girl (I don't remember if it was clearly stated whether she was trans or not, but she got put in a mental hospital in the 50s for dressing too boyish and it was all really sad but it was a good episode!) and I thought it was good, like they didn't portray her as some kind of weirdo in the situation, but how insane everyones reaction was.

Annasopra

Interesting study in the UK

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/03/29/study-says-gays-and-lesbians-are-still-stereotyped-in-films/

http://www.ukfilmcouncil.org.uk/media/pdf/d/n/Portrayal_Vs._Betrayal_Research_Report_UK_Film_Council_2011.pdf

LegacyUser

Recent shows like The Wire, United States of Tara, 90210 and Greek did a good job with their gay characters.

Glee does an awful job in my opinion. They had a wedding episode where the bride, groom and best man speech revolved around the gay character's sexuality. I think that it portrays acceptance of homosexuality as being too much of a big deal. The show also makes jokes about jews, black people, people with learning disabilities, physically disabled people, Asians and fat people on a regular basis but treats making fun of gay people as a crime against humanity.

im...LOST

Six feet under springs to mind.


Black Swan

Fozzydog3

I am fcuking sick to death of programmes (simpsons are notorious for this) using gays to pat themselves on the back for being oh so out there and edgy , fair enough if the show is based around gay people but in the simpsons case it just takes away from the whole thing


then you have your 21st century minstrel show gays Ricky lake , wagons den any other show that your man from big brother was in and pineapple dance studios (fair enough the main ones gay but still its my post ) it just teaches people that gays should be treated as twats

Sir Ophiuchus

Fozzydog3, I agree if it's stereotypical or whatever, but actually I quite like the normalisation of gay characters in modern media. It doesn't have to be blatantly in-your-face.

LegacyUser

Brian Dowling from Big Brother gets TV slots because of his incredible wit.

Black Swan was nothing to do with homosexuality, they even make sure to point this out in the scene after the Mila/Natalie bedroom scene. It was about

the black swan inside of Natalie's character finally seducing the white swan side of her, it is the turning point of the film

I think that the worst written and most overrated show ever - Skins - even did the gay thing right. Shameless too.

Glee does not.

I disagree with the Simpsons. If some of the new episodes did something offensive with gay people, then its irrelevant because the new ones are of shocking quality. But the older ones did a fantastic job with it, they had Homer be best friends with a gay man, then when he realised he was gay he automatically hated him.

Chuchoter

I thought it was hilarious the way Black Swan was billed as a 'lesbian movie'. It had absolutely nothing to do with anything LGBT.

AndrewJD

crayolastereo wrote: »

I thought it was hilarious the way Black Swan was billed as a 'lesbian movie'. It had absolutely nothing to do with anything LGBT.

I didn't really get any sense of that. I thought it was just a psychological horrory type thing. Of course after a week or so, all anyone wanted talked about was the lesbian part so...