IFJ Beef articles

Muckit

Lads

Any of ye get the IFJ this week. Good reading in it for anyone into beef/sucklers

vanderbadger

Muckit wrote: »

Lads

Any of ye get the IFJ this week. Good reading in it for anyone into beef/sucklers

just follow the derrybrien template for success :rolleyes:
ah some of it is interesting in fairness, i love the examples they give, eg pat reilly has gone from calving allover the shop 2 seasons aga to a perfect compact calving system now

pakalasa

Not to be knocking them or anything, but one thing bugs me about all these profit figures they quote. They always say 'gross profit' which could mean anything. It's usually includes contractors, fertiliser, veteninary etc.

What about the cost of building that lovely new shed or that new tractor you know they have. It's as if they were luxuries or something and not real expenses.

bob charles

paper never refused ink, but I dont want to get started about the IFJ. not a fan to say the least

kboc

the farmer from downpatrick, co down was quite impressive

TUBBY

bob charles wrote: »

paper never refused ink, but I dont want to get started about the IFJ. not a fan to say the least

I know what you mean and you should take some of what the IFJ articles say with a pinch of salt but there are some useful stuff in them too. if you were to follow some of the advice you would be having a fair amount of outlay but the main thing is that at least there are articles on beef and factory and mart prices etc.
I find Justin McCarthys beef section on second last page decent. Also, the price comparison thing they ran a while back was good.

I think the Journal is a much better read than the Tuesday indo supplement.

Muckit

kboc wrote: »

the farmer from downpatrick, co down was quite impressive

Ya kinda got me thinking alright. Might be something alot of guys may consider in the future.

Then again, I always find that alot of these guys 'doing well' in beef/sucklers have the connections, expertise and generally the upper hand.

They either are a vet, have meat factory connections or are AI Technicans.

The Downpatrick guy works for the Dept. of Ag :rolleyes:

irishh_bob

the article seemed to suggest that in terms of profit from suckling , bigger ( charolais, belgian blue etc ) cattle are not nescesserily better , i think this could be the case when it comes to calf to slaughter on the same farm like this farmer in question has ( earlier finishing etc ) but when it comes to breeding weanlings , where would the guy with an angus be when a charolais comes running into the ring

whelan1

irishh_bob wrote: »

the article seemed to suggest that in terms of profit from suckling , bigger ( charolais, belgian blue etc ) cattle are not nescesserily better , i think this could be the case when it comes to calf to slaughter on the same farm like this farmer in question has ( earlier finishing etc ) but when it comes to breeding weanlings , where would the guy with an angus be when a charolais comes running into the ring

as a pedigree angus breeder there is no comparison when you go to the mart compared to charolaois etc but the big plus side is the earlier maturing of the angus, also we had an angus bull in ai that bet every other breed for daily live weight gain... which would you prefer keep an animal for 2 years and get an ok price or keep it for longer with more costs for a better price ...I have a neighbour who only buys the dearest cattle in the mart nearly always charolaois and he was saying the other day he makes nothing on them , i said why bother buying them in the first place just to be seen with the best cattle

Muckit

You talk alot of sense Whelan1.

I'm not in full control of the homeplace YET, but when I do I'm seriously thinking of moving to AA. Why not?

Everyone is scared of change, but if you sat down and did the figures, I'd reckon like you said you'd have more out of them.

Sure twas all Herfords, shorhorns and black white heads when the oul lad started out and he changed to continentals...... I think a change is well on the cards for the next generation in the next few years.

I never believed in being a sheep. Just because it's the in thing at the moment to be breeding BB and CH doesn't mean it's the answer for everyone.

At home we've Commercial and PD Charolais and limousin cows that (and I'm not boasting) could win prizes, but their progeny, although good wouldn't be described as 'smashers' (and we used AI last few years) :rolleyes:

Lads/lassies need to take into consideratrion the whole equation. It's the net return that's left at the end of the day that'I make a few pound.

Leave the pride in the pocket. It won't feed man or beast

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

as a pedigree angus breeder there is no comparison when you go to the mart compared to charolaois etc but the big plus side is the earlier maturing of the angus, also we had an angus bull in ai that bet every other breed for daily live weight gain... which would you prefer keep an animal for 2 years and get an ok price or keep it for longer with more costs for a better price ...I have a neighbour who only buys the dearest cattle in the mart nearly always charolaois and he was saying the other day he makes nothing on them , i said why bother buying them in the first place just to be seen with the best cattle

so we both agree that when it comes to calf to beef , the angus is just as good if not better than a continental , the point is though that many if not most sell thier stock as weanlings and the reality is that weanling buyers dont give angus or hereford etc a second look

whelan1

irishh_bob wrote: »

so we both agree that when it comes to calf to beef , the angus is just as good if not better than a continental , the point is though that many if not most sell thier stock as weanlings and the reality is that weanling buyers dont give angus or hereford etc a second look

yes i would be very interested in seeing their margins on these weanlings

irishh_bob

Muckit wrote: »

You talk alot of sense Whelan1.

I'm not in full control of the homeplace YET, but when I do I'm seriously thinking of moving to AA. Why not?

Everyone is scared of change, but if you sat down and did the figures, I'd reckon like you said you'd have more out of them.

Sure twas all Herfords, shorhorns and black white heads when the oul lad started out and he changed to continentals...... I think a change is well on the cards for the next generation in the next few years.

I never believed in being a sheep. Just because it's the in thing at the moment to be breeding BB and CH doesn't mean it's the answer for everyone.

At home we've Commercial and PD Charolais and limousin cows that (and I'm not boasting) could win prizes, but their progeny, although good wouldn't be described as 'smashers' (and we used AI last few years) :rolleyes:

Lads/lassies need to take into consideratrion the whole equation. It's the net return that's left at the end of the day that'I make a few pound.

Leave the pride in the pocket. It won't feed man or beast

does the present system ( continentals ) at your place leave a profit , i recently told a teagasc man that i was thinking of setting up a suckler herd( probably simental cows ) and he told me in all seriousness that i would be as well setting a pile of cash on fire , he claimed that 80% of suckler farmers loose money and even end up spending 20% of thier single payment on subsidising the loss making sucklers

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

yes i would be very interested in seeing their margins on these weanlings

i happen to very much like angus and hereford but ive never heard of anyone breeding them for weanling sales , its either finish them or breed them for replacements or stock bulls , the article is only relevant IMO to those who finish cattle

Muckit

irishh_bob wrote: »

i happen to very much like angus and hereford but ive never heard of anyone breeding them for weanling sales , its either finish them or breed them for replacements or stock bulls , the article is only relevant IMO to those who finish cattle

And why not finish them yourself, if your near a factory that would give you the premium... I don't know?

Your finishing them at a younger age (I think).

I suppose like everything else, a lad would have to try it out first to see the pitfalls

irishh_bob

Muckit wrote: »

And why not finish them yourself, if your near a factory that would give you the premium... I don't know?

Your finishing them at a younger age (I think).

I suppose like everything else, a lad would have to try it out first to see the pitfalls

not everyone is set up to finish , hence the weanling sale producers role in beef in this country

whelan1

there is an unreal trade for angus cross calves off friesian cows , i could sell mine 3 times over

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

there is an unreal trade for angus cross calves off friesian cows , i could sell mine 3 times over

only applys to dairy farmers though

keep going

as a dairy farmer i thought he sounded impressive but the big message i saw was the focus on simplfying the system and the focus on cheap weight gain rather than what breed to use im sure its possible to come up with a system to suit all breeds just need to start thinking differently

irishh_bob

keep going wrote: »

as a dairy farmer i thought he sounded impressive but the big message i saw was the focus on simplfying the system and the focus on cheap weight gain rather than what breed to use im sure its possible to come up with a system to suit all breeds just need to start thinking differently

indeed , i fail to see why cost saving measures cant be enforced while still keeping continentals , mc carthys artcile comes across a bit like jack kennedys dairy articles where he potrays jersey cross cows as the only show in town and makes the case that no one can make any money from high yielding holstiens , im not saying thier is anything wrong with hereford or angus but if those breeds were as more profitable as this article hints at , surely more farmers would have held on to them years ago or switched back since

manjou

I think the idea of the article was that you should work more on your costs rather than on the price you are getting for your stock.you could easily put ch or bb bulls on these cows if you want to sell weanlings.there is no point in geting 800 and spending 500 if you can get600 and it costs 300 and you keep an extra few cows

irishh_bob

manjou wrote: »

I think the idea of the article was that you should work more on your costs rather than on the price you are getting for your stock.you could easily put ch or bb bulls on these cows if you want to sell weanlings.there is no point in geting 800 and spending 500 if you can get600 and it costs 300 and you keep an extra few cows

it doesnt take an extra 200 quid to keep a limousin cow over an angus though

manjou

The angus would be a bit cheaper to keep but not 200 though. My point is to try and keep the difference between sales and costs as big as possible.the guy in ifj makes about 35 cents a kg more for beef than we get down here half of his extra profit.

JohnBoy

I'm not a farmer, I'm working on it, but I'm not one yet


I read the journal every week, I read here, I read bff, I talk to our teagasc adviser, the lads in the co-op, the lads farming beside us.

I talk to lots of people and read lots of stuff.

And the overriding impression is that very few people look for any return on investment, or look at anything from a return on investment point of view.

All they see is selling prices. the €1000 weanling, the export markets, the big fat arsed cattle.

The only thing that's ever wrong is the cost of cattle, or diesel, or feed.

It's never their fault.


every year the same stories are in the journal, winter finishers need more, winter finishers cant survive, the IFA complaining about the price from the factories.


But yet, every year the winter finishers, expecting to make a loss "unless prices improve significantly"

Why the hell do they bother? I can see some merit in producing sucklers, it's a relatively long term operation, it's at least 18 months form putting the bull to the cow before you see any return, who knows what will have happened in the markets during that time. But filling a shed full of cattle to feed when you know you're going to make a loss is madness. but lads still do it.


The SFP has to be a lot to blame.

I'm rambling/ranting and probably offending at least half the people on here, so I'll stop the rant.


I found the articles about the guy in down to be very interesting.

He's got a good few things going for him. He's got a flexible job that suits his farming, he's likely got a good relationship with the factory. He's got a good deal going with a dairying neighbour supplying the breeding heifers. and he's got another good deal with a tillage neighbour fitting Kale into his rotation to suit.


So he's got the right setup, and is using his networking skills, and fair play to him for it. Is this not what the discussion groups are for?

He's also running a tight ship on his calving to keep his system in check. it takes balls to cull anything that hasn't calved by 9 weeks, but it keeps everything tight. He can afford to do this because of his steady supply of replacements. Odds are he's got someone lined up who's guaranteed to take these cows off his hands too.

He's designed a low cost system, cows out year round, cattle finished off grass, cattle only spending their first winter indoors. selling lots of cattle that dont cost much to produce gives him a good return.


The most startling figure of all from that article was the fact that he earned €35 an hour for his labour last year.


If his numbers are as good as was being implied, then fair f*cks to him I say.

Muckit

I suppose theres a middle ground between saying 'a fu*k it what will be will be' kinda of an attitude to what you'I make on stock and doing the same old thing, and swallowing whole what's written in the journal and turning your system upside down and inside out tearing after this extra money the likes of McCarthy talks about.

As Johnboy said, if it were that simple, wouldn't every lad be at it? :rolleyes:

I went to a suckler farm walk near us about two years ago. I picked up alot of tips, but wouldn't attempt to follow his system to the letter of the law.

Not taking away from the lad, but he'd an unreal interest in Genetics. So much so, that he was an AI man. He could AI all his cows at the optimum time with the best bulls without having the expense or the risk of his own tank lying around.

His replacement heifers he sourced from the best cows off the lads he AI'd for !! He knew all the breeding history of the cow and even the cow's mother/sire!

The ground he had wasn't great, very heavy with even some rushes, but he was growing great grass and reseeding a field every year.

I went through the whole range of emotions that day, from being excited and optimist (thinking what I could do/change when i got home), to a little disillusioned and a bit more realist.

If this guy, having the best bred 90 cows/heifers in the country, breeding the best BB's you ever seen couldn't make enough money to do it full time, where would i (ordinary Joe) be going?

Tora Bora

Farmers always complaining there is no money in it. IFA ditto.
I agree that there is little money to be made in beef, or suckling etc.

What I can never understand though, is when I go to the mart, and look around the car park, new jeeps, nearly new jeeps, mercs, beemers, very expensive new tractors ................. don't add up:pac:

Muckit

Tora Bora wrote: »

...... don't add up:pac:

The day job :rolleyes:

whelan1

Tora Bora wrote: »

Farmers always complaining there is no money in it. IFA ditto.
I agree that there is little money to be made in beef, or suckling etc.

What I can never understand though, is when I go to the mart, and look around the car park, new jeeps, nearly new jeeps, mercs, beemers, very expensive new tractors ................. don't add up:pac:

imo these all belong to the part time farmers

manjou

kinda what i was trying to say but more diplomatic. there has to be a better way of doing it and hopefully will find it

F.D

I find a lot of the articles are actually suckler beef related, where as we at home are weanling to finishing, or this year trying calf to finishing due to the cost of weanlings
The other point is these lads are on higher acreages than most i'd reckon and of course none of the actual facts are printed, i think every time they do these better farm articles, the farm facts for that person should be stated in the corner, that way you will know instantly if you can relate directly to it or not.
there is some interesting stuff in them but i wouldnt go running out and do exactly what they do, it was good to see after all the hype about kale and outwintering last year after the hard winter some were having doubts of doing it again, as long as its reality and not a lot of hot air i will keep having a look anyway

redzerologhlen

Muckit wrote: »

I suppose theres a middle ground between saying 'a fu*k it what will be will be' kinda of an attitude to what you'I make on stock and doing the same old thing, and swallowing whole what's written in the journal and turning your system upside down and inside out tearing after this extra money the likes of McCarthy talks about.

As Johnboy said, if it were that simple, wouldn't every lad be at it? :rolleyes:

I went to a suckler farm walk near us about two years ago. I picked up alot of tips, but wouldn't attempt to follow his system to the letter of the law.

Not taking away from the lad, but he'd an unreal interest in Genetics. So much so, that he was an AI man. He could AI all his cows at the optimum time with the best bulls without having the expense or the risk of his own tank lying around.

His replacement heifers he sourced from the best cows off the lads he AI'd for !! He knew all the breeding history of the cow and even the cow's mother/sire!

The ground he had wasn't great, very heavy with even some rushes, but he was growing great grass and reseeding a field every year.

I went through the whole range of emotions that day, from being excited and optimist (thinking what I could do/change when i got home), to a little disillusioned and a bit more realist.

If this guy, having the best bred 90 cows/heifers in the country, breeding the best BB's you ever seen couldn't make enough money to do it full time, where would i (ordinary Joe) be going?

Was that man just outside mountbellew Co.Galway by any chance Muckit?

Muckit

F.D wrote: »

it was good to see after all the hype about kale and outwintering last year after the hard winter some were having doubts of doing it again, as long as its reality and not a lot of hot air i will keep having a look anyway

Ya true.

Looks like kale, outwintering pads and these high performance grasses for dairying were all well tested last winter....... :rolleyes:

Muckit

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Was that man just outside mountbellew Co.Galway by any chance Muckit?

Yes indeed Did you go?

redzerologhlen

Muckit wrote: »

Yes indeed Did you go?

Ya i was there. I taught it a good day out to be honest. He had done very well for himself in fairness considering he had no single farm payment to eat into and the land he was farming was very heavy as you said. He wasnt farming long either only 7 years or something so fair play to him. He probably could have made a living off it though going by the figures that were giving on the day. What impressed me the most was the way he had everything so perfect and still had time to work the day job. Theres a lot of looking after in 90 cows. I wouldnt say his system suited everyone but there was plenty to be learned. If you never looked at any of his stock and looked at his level of grassland managment you would be a lot more knowledgeable.:)

vanderbadger

redzerologhlen wrote: »

Ya i was there. I taught it a good day out to be honest. He had done very well for himself in fairness considering he had no single farm payment to eat into and the land he was farming was very heavy as you said. He wasnt farming long either only 7 years or something so fair play to him. He probably could have made a living off it though going by the figures that were giving on the day. What impressed me the most was the way he had everything so perfect and still had time to work the day job. Theres a lot of looking after in 90 cows. I wouldnt say his system suited everyone but there was plenty to be learned. If you never looked at any of his stock and looked at his level of grassland managment you would be a lot more knowledgeable.:)

I dont know how he manages to look after 90 cows and hold down a job, he must have an auld fella knocking around the place

Muckit

vanderbadger wrote: »

I dont know how he manages to look after 90 cows and hold down a job, he must have an auld fella knocking around the place

I don't think so. The farm is in two lots. 40acres and think 50-60 acres rented. The 40acres he inherited off an uncle I think I remember reading in the leaflet that day.

He's a goer alright no doubt and fair play to him.

And that William Flynn that had the top prize bull at the charolais premier last month (made €7,600) is only over the road from him. Another great worker and you should see the difficult land he works with, very marginal land and full of rushes.

So I suppose it can be done, with the right attitude....

vanderbadger

Muckit wrote: »

I don't think so. The farm is in two lots. 40acres and think 50-60 acres rented. The 40acres he inherited off an uncle I think I remember reading in the leaflet that day.

He's a goer alright no doubt and fair play to him.

was he spreading a share of fertilizer, 90 cows and calves will do fair old munching, would 100 acres keep them going?

alderdeer

whelan1 wrote: »

yes i would be very interested in seeing their margins on these weanlings

I was at the weanling thing for years and ill tell ya there is no margin as with buying any stores and finishing them, It costs €300-€350/yr to keep a bullock or heifer and you will hear lads sayin they sold a bullock for €1000 that cost €600 as a weanlin a year and a half ago and how well they are doin but its eating into their SFP by about €50-€100/hd and wheres the sence in that,
I was having a "discussion" with my father the other day about farming and making a semi decent wage and he was sayin for me not to look at the real profit of the farm but just to keep it stocked fully and keep going.
Lets just say we agreed to disagree

irishh_bob

alderdeer wrote: »

I was at the weanling thing for years and ill tell ya there is no margin as with buying any stores and finishing them, It costs €300-€350/yr to keep a bullock or heifer and you will hear lads sayin they sold a bullock for €1000 that cost €600 as a weanlin a year and a half ago and how well they are doin but its eating into their SFP by about €50-€100/hd and wheres the sence in that,
I was having a "discussion" with my father the other day about farming and making a semi decent wage and he was sayin for me not to look at the real profit of the farm but just to keep it stocked fully and keep going.
Lets just say we agreed to disagree

so is thier no real money in beef , full stop ! :mad:

alderdeer

irishh_bob wrote: »

so is thier no real money in beef , full stop ! :mad:

Well there isnt for me any how with half my SFP goin to the parents and whats left goin on bills, Im just hoping that with getting into sucklers i would be opening up another market for my stock and not just have irish factory prices to rely on, Is this money train from brussels going to keep rolling indefinately so irish farmers can keep producing at a loss, maybe but its a big chance to take