Can they fire you for this?

sashafierce

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theg81der

He needs to join a union pronto, try ringing Unite/ siptu any union and tackle them for constructive dismissal - as he was left with no choice but to leave his job which I take it he didn`t want to do. It seems that this was a normal and expected part of the job and he wasn`t given his legally entitled warnings and they clearly knew he wasn`t aware of his right.

They probably want to get rid of him as paying him redundancy would be expensive.

gerrycollins

theg81der wrote: »

He needs to join a union pronto, try ringing Unite/ siptu any union and tackle them for constructive dismissal - as he was left with no choice but to leave his job which I take it he didn`t want to do. It seems that this was a normal and expected part of the job and he wasn`t given his legally entitled warnings and they clearly knew he wasn`t aware of his right.

They probably want to get rid of him as paying him redundancy would be expensive.

sadly joining a union at this stage wont do him any favour they dont work that way.

While every one was giving out kids tickets to adults there appears that there was no policy in place about this. ie staff discounts. Giving any staff discounts to family may be a serious misconduct issue anyways.

To me it sounds like the employer found out about this practise and instead of tackling it they just fired the first person they caught doing it. It may be argued that because everyone was doing it then the precedent was set. The most the employee could do at this stage is seek legal advice with the hope of getting reinstated. However this could be counter argued that the staff member was properly given an induction and giving a job description where in the job description it may have been described as ticket selling and the decision on ticket prices is set and not up to the staff member to decide.

for the employer, they should have upon finding out about this practise would be to individually meet with each employee and set out the rules and policy surrounding staff discounts (if any). this would have "cleared the slate" and any staff member found after this to be in breach would find themselves in hot water as there was no grey area.

Eoin

theg81der wrote:

he wasn`t given his legally entitled warnings and they clearly knew he wasn`t aware of his right.

There are no legally entitled warnings. It's only strongly recommended by employment law. Even if they do have specific procedures in place, then you can be sure that there will be a provision that gross misconduct would mean they can skip the warnings.

sashafierce wrote:

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Should they really need to specifically say that you can't give away stuff for free? I'd have thought it was obvious.

Mrs OBumble

sashafierce wrote: »

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Rubbish: they were being very kind letting him resign. Now he can honestly say that he's never been fired, which wouldn't have been the case otherwise.

I'm sure that there's a guideline somewhere telling you what ages apply for child tickets. Unless it has "or family or former employees" written down beside it then what you all did was plain theft. Just 'cos no one got caught before doesn't make it right.

theg81der

Definetely not to late for a union was involved in a situation very similar to this lately which was then resolved.

OP had the employer previously known about this practice or was it a secret? Ridiculous thing to sack an employee over obviously an over reaction and I have a feeling thats how an employment tribunal would see it, it clearly just isn`t fair.

Corruptedmorals

The handbook/contract does not have to state every instance of what it deems to be gross misconduct. In fact it should have a disclaimer stating that what it lists as gross misconduct is not conclusive. This is the same as people using their staff discount for friends etc..people get fired over this all the time. It is still theft and you shouldn't have to consult a handbook or a union to find out that the company are within their rights to fire/force resignation on somebody who is frauding their ticket sales. It should go without saying. Very unfortunate they have chosen a scapegoat if the practice was rife, but he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

borderlinemeath

sashafierce wrote: »

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The only argument that he could have made was that the "practice" originated with authorisation from a manager or supervisor and he understood it to be "common practice" and not something that he knew he could be fired for.

Do you have a contract or a staff handbook with guidelines and procedures? You will need to check and see what it says regarding discounts. Most discounts have to be used by the employee personally and are not transferable unless items are being purchased as gifts. There usually a reference to disciplinary procedures if the discount is being abused and that it could lead to disciplinary procedures up to and including dismissal.

Unfortunately most employers view abuse of discounts to be almost on a par with theft - an employee that abuses their discount is basically stealing from them - you're friend would have to prove that the practice was understood to be OK with management and that he has been made a scapegoat for their lack of procedures. It's a long shot though.

bbam

Letting people in at concessional rates without consent of the employer is essentially stealing the balance of the value of the full admission fee..

Stealing from one's employer will usually end in immediate termination without previous warnings...

The employer probably wanted to send a strong message to the employees that this or any other dodgy practice will not be tolerated.. Bet it works too...

Formosa

sashafierce wrote: »

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Proper order, he got what he deserved. In fact he is lucky they let him walk rather than fire him.

ShiverinEskimo

Formosa wrote: »

Proper order, he got what he deserved. In fact he is lucky they let him walk rather than fire him.

I don't agree with this at all. In many cases if resignation is offered it's a clear sign the employer is unsure as to whether or not the misconduct warrants a sacking.

If it was such a clear breach of company policy and the employer was so sure it was a clear sackable offence I somehow doubt he'd go the route of offering resignation. In my experience where you're offered resignation over a perceived offence it's because the employer doesn't fancy the paperwork and/or is worried about an unfair dismissal case.

This is all IMO of course but in my mind the employer bluffed and the employee should have called it.

Trashbat

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all. In many cases if resignation is offered it's a clear sign the employer is unsure as to whether or not the misconduct warrants a sacking.

If it was such a clear breach of company policy and the employer was so sure it was a clear sackable offence I somehow doubt he'd go the route of offering resignation. In my experience where you're offered resignation over a perceived offence it's because the employer doesn't fancy the paperwork and/or is worried about an unfair dismissal case.

This is all IMO of course but in my mind the employer bluffed and the employee should have called it.

Actually its just as easy to claim constructive dismissal in a case where they were given the chance to resign than it is to claim unfair dismissal if they were sacked. Neither are applicable here.This is clear gross misconduct. Thing is, in small organsiations and cottage industries, people operate more informally and the boss was probably just rying to do that.

Mrs OBumble

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

in my mind the employer bluffed and the employee should have called it.

Except that in this case, it's 100% clear that they were stealing.

sashafierce

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bbam

sashafierce wrote: »

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Unless a manager has categorically stated that this is company policy, (preferably in writing) they can claim you are stealing company revenue by allowing your mates to access the cinema for free/discount...

Common practice it may be but stealing from ones employer isn't as rare as you would think...

ShiverinEskimo

JustMary wrote: »

Except that in this case, it's 100% clear that they were stealing.

I think it's anything but the case. Without knowing what was stated in the contract obviously.

If you walk into a job and you are trained up by those around you and see child tickets being dished out to former emloyees and family by your colleagues there's grounds for common practice and I reckon any labour court won't see it as black and white as you seem to.

Best practice from my POV is that the manager should have put the employee on a written warning and circulated word that from now on any discounting happening will be met with termination of employment.

Shelflife

So what your saying is that if everyone is stealing then that makes it ok?

Unless the management have clearly stated that this practice is acceptable then it is theft pure and simple. just because those around you do it doesnt make it ok.

ShiverinEskimo

Shelflife wrote: »

So what your saying is that if everyone is stealing then that makes it ok?

Unless the management have clearly stated that this practice is acceptable then it is theft pure and simple. just because those around you do it doesnt make it ok.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm saying a judge might see it that an employee was made an example of for being involved in a practice which was widespread amongst all staff in which case there may be grounds for constructive dismissal.

And please don't sit there and declare it outright stealing when there is still money changing hands. You can claim it is the same as someone walking in and fleasing products off shelves but it simply isn't so don't demean us both by claiming it is.

Shelflife

And please don't sit there and declare it outright stealing when there is still money changing hands. You can claim it is the same as someone walking in and fleasing products off shelves but it simply isn't so don't demean us both by claiming it is.

Hi eskimo , didnt mean to put words in your mouth, however just because you are the only only caught speeding , saying there was a lot of other cars speeding as well is not a defense.

as for the above statment, if you give something away that is not yours then that is theft. if you dont have permission to give a discount and you do then that too is theft. by not charging the correct amount you are effectively stealing from your employer. In fact i would view it as worse as you are in a position of trust and you are abusing that position as opposed to the shoplifter who is just a lowlife.

ShiverinEskimo

Speeding is a clear and well documented offence with clear and concise punishments laid out. It is also enforced regularly and anyone who is a qualified driver has proven they are aware of the limits. It's not the same.

For the record I'm not saying the employee did nothing wrong, I'm just saying it doesn't sit too well that he's been made an example of and that a judge *might* agree.

I'm not saying anything more, or anything less.

Shelflife

Fair enough , but as soon as the manager becomes aware of the practise he has to nail someone, maybe the op is unlucky that they are the one thats caught first, but thats life.

if the op is being singled out thats different, but id say that its bad practice that has developed over time and mgmt are now clamping down on it.

ShiverinEskimo

And that is where we disagree - the manager does not have to 'nail someone' at all IMO. A warning and a meeting to inform other staff that such practice would no longer be acceptable and would result in a sacking would, again IMO only, been a more fair approach.

Making an example of someone is by definition an unfair act where it's known the practice was widespread.

Who's to say judge would agree with me though - but I reckon any lawyer/solicitor brought on board by the empployee would give the case serious consideration.

Whether or not an employee would risk spending thousands on a solicitor in order to make a point about a relatively low-paid job with shítty hours is a different story altogether.