Help me date a picture

P. Breathnach

This is a picture that was given to me years ago by an aunt (now long deceased): http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/2444/scan0002sg.jpg

The child wearing the medallion is her father, my grandfather, born in February 1881. I am not sure if it is a first communion or a confirmation medal.

Best guesses about the ages of the children might help. Obviously, judging the age of my grandfather would be best, but I think his age is difficult to judge.

So I invite judgements on
(a) the girl standing;
(b) the boy in the white shirt;
(c) the boy seated at the front;
(d) the infant on my great-grandmother's lap.

I think the infant is a boy. Opinions?

Supplementary: I had presumed that my great-grandparents were about the same age as one another, but I am now addressing to possibility that he might have been about 20 years older than her. Does that look likely?

DaveCol

Here are my guesses:

(a) the girl standing - age 7/8
(b) the boy in the white shirt - 5/6
(c) the boy seated at the front - 3/4
(d) the infant on my great-grandmother's lap - 1/2

I think the infant is a boy. Opinions? Yes

I would guess about 10 years between the parents

Danae1

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The child wearing the medallion is her father, my grandfather, born in February 1881. I am not sure if it is a first communion or a confirmation medal.

Best guesses about the ages of the children might help. Obviously, judging the age of my grandfather would be best, but I think his age is difficult to judge.

My estimates:
(a) the girl standing; 10-12
(b) the boy in the white shirt; 5/6
(c) the boy seated at the front; 3/4
(d) the infant on my great-grandmother's lap; 2
+ your grandfather; 13-14

I think the infant is a girl. This is based NOT on the dress(common for boys for christenings) but on the boots worn by girls at the time as well as the fact that generally boys were not still posed on laps at this age. Also hair may not have grown longer yet.

I would estimate that it is the confirmation of both your grandfather & girl standing: it was not unheard of for multiple years -especially in rural schools- to do this in alternate years...a numbers thing I guess! Also holding an easter basket may have been used by girls instead of wearing a badge..

Supplementary: I had presumed that my great-grandparents were about the same age as one another, but I am now addressing to possibility that he might have been about 20 years older than her. Does that look likely?

Re GGparent ages; I'd guess there is a decade or so between them, this was not uncommon, this happened for a number of reasons. Aside from incidents of maternal death during childbirth, diseases & poor work practices many widowed householders (of both sexes) remarried for practical reasons of maintaining a family, income, stability & household, bloodlines etc!
Check census records to see had there been an earlier marriage on either side. Great fun to do btw but be warned; ages were often 'guesstimated' as dates of birth may have been incorrectly recorded & with such large families and high infant mortality rates its hit and miss checking our family genealogy I found out LOADS of stuff..........

Wyldwood

My guess is that the girl in the white dress standing is 11/12, is this her confirmation also looking at the basket of flowers?
The boy with the white shirt is 5/6
The boy seated at front is 3/4
The baby on her lap is 1/2, probably a girl based on boots.
Wouldn't think there's more than 10 years between the couple.
I'd guess your grandfather's medal is a confirmation medal (Maltese Cross)

P. Breathnach

Thank you for the comments, people.

I withheld my own views so as not to influence your judgement. I'll add some information and opinion now.

The family were of modest means, living in a Dublin Artisans' Dwelling, so having a photograph taken was probably a big deal for them. I would think, therefore, that they would try hard to have all children present for the occasion.

Eight children survived until 1900, so I would guess the picture was taken before the youngest was born in 1892.

I am leaning towards 1891, and it being a confirmation picture. My grandfather was 10 years old that year, and I think that was the traditional age for confirmation back then.

His siblings at the time were: one sister, aged 13; five brothers, aged 14, 12, 6,4, and 2. Your judgements make me more confident about my interpretation -- but the boots are a worry! I am less troubled about interpreting the basket of flowers: it was confirmation day, and the photographer's studio might have had it as a prop, just as some have academicals today.

I believe that my great-grandmother was 39 at that time. I have some indications that my great-grandfather was about 59.

Yes, Danae1, I think my great-grandfather might have had a previous marriage, but I can find no trace of it. I might have a slew of cousins in Arklow that are unknown to the family.

shanew

Is there are photographers name or address on the back of the photo ?

If so this can sometimes help to date the photo by tracking down details of the studio in directories


Shane

P. Breathnach

shanew wrote: »

Is there are photographers name or address on the back of the photo ? ...

No such luck!

I'm not too worried, as I think my dating is not seriously out, and I don't see the picture as a key to learning more about the family. It's a nice thing to illustrate the family story, and I can now assign identities to all the people in it (your suggestion in another thread that I look into Glasnevin Cemetery records helped me, if I might put it this way, to complete the picture).

MajorMax

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Thank you for the comments, people.

I withheld my own views so as not to influence your judgement. I'll add some information and opinion now.

The family were of modest means, living in a Dublin Artisans' Dwelling, so having a photograph taken was probably a big deal for them. I would think, therefore, that they would try hard to have all children present for the occasion.

Eight children survived until 1900, so I would guess the picture was taken before the youngest was born in 1892.

I am leaning towards 1891, and it being a confirmation picture. My grandfather was 10 years old that year, and I think that was the traditional age for confirmation back then.

His siblings at the time were: one sister, aged 13; five brothers, aged 14, 12, 6,4, and 2. Your judgements make me more confident about my interpretation -- but the boots are a worry! I am less troubled about interpreting the basket of flowers: it was confirmation day, and the photographer's studio might have had it as a prop, just as some have academicals today.

I believe that my great-grandmother was 39 at that time. I have some indications that my great-grandfather was about 59.

Yes, Danae1, I think my great-grandfather might have had a previous marriage, but I can find no trace of it. I might have a slew of cousins in Arklow that are unknown to the family.

If you have their names you can get a lot of information from the 1901 or 1911 Census including access to original records of the building they were living in the fathers employment, years married children born & children living. Go to http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/ I have found these records invaluable

P. Breathnach

MajorMax wrote: »

If you have their names you can get a lot of information from the 1901 or 1911 Census including access to original records of the building they were living in the fathers employment, years married children born & children living. Go to http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/ I have found these records invaluable

Been there, done that. It is indeed a wonderful resource. I think it has kick-started a huge number of genealogy projects.

Working back into the 19th century is more of a challenge, especially with people who died before the 1901 census (as did my great-grandparents in that photograph).

fontanalis

have you tried this website. It seems to go back a good bit before the 1900's.

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=allCollections&r=1

P. Breathnach

fontanalis wrote: »

have you tried this website. It seems to go back a good bit before the 1900's.

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=allCollections&r=1

Thanks. Been there, done that also. I'm now scrabbling about for resources that go a bit earlier.