How many smartcards will be issued when Integrated Ticketing becomes operational?

micka

Hi all,

Could anyone hazard a guess / opinion / answer on the following?

1. Within one year of the operational start date of Integrated Ticketing - how many smart cards will be issued in the Greater Dublin Area (GDA).

2. Have CIE (Bus Eireann, Irish Rail and Dublin Bus) fully signed up to it?

3. Will dublinbikes become part of it?

4. What other operators are more than likely to sign up (mostly Bus operators I presume)!

5. Any stats on the amount of folk who have subscribed to dublinbikes up to roughly now?

6. Any stats on the amount of folk who have subscribed to Luas smartcard up to roughly now?

7. Any stats on the amount of folk who have subscribed to IrishRail / Dart smartcard up to roughly now?

Thanks folks..

I need the info as i have to predict the likely take up of registrations for my own company (www.GoCar.ie) if we become part of the 'operator' mix on the new Integrated Smart Card.

If the take up is predicited to be in excess of 125 applications per month (currently hitting 40) then we need to roll out 8 CarShare vehicles a month across Dublin as opposed to the current 4 or so.

Regards,

Mike N

LXFlyer

It's a bit difficult to answer that until we find out what the Dublin Bus fare structure is going to be post-smartcard, and what discounts will be offered. That will be the single greatest factor in determining how attractive the product will be.

At the moment it is a staged fare, but there is talk of a flat fare being introduced, something that has been resisted at political level to date. This would mean people only tagging on but not tagging off on the bus.

The smartcard is being rolled out initially for Dublin Bus and LUAS, and will then include Irish Rail and Bus Eireann subsequently - all are signed up to it.

Everyone who has a period pass (weekly/monthly/annual) will be migrated to a smartcard, so that is a lot of people. The smartcard will have the ability to have an epurse as well as a period pass, so someone could have a bus/rail period pass and use the epurse on the LUAS for example.

I don't believe that dublinbikes is part of the scheme.

There are very limited numbers of private operators that may partake in it (there are only about half a dozen in Dublin with limited routes), but I would expect the likes of Swords Express to join up.

Why not contact the RPA?

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

It's a bit difficult to answer that until we find out what the Dublin Bus fare structure is going to be post-smartcard, and what discounts will be offered. That will be the single greatest factor in determining how attractive the product will be.

At the moment it is a staged fare, but there is talk of a flat fare being introduced, something that has been resisted at political level to date. This would mean people only tagging on but not tagging off on the bus.


Everyone who has a period pass (weekly/monthly/annual) will be migrated to a smartcard, so that is a lot of people. The smartcard will have the ability to have an epurse as well as a period pass, so someone could have a bus/rail period pass and use the epurse on the LUAS for example.


Why not contact the RPA?

Excellent summation of the current situation.

It really is incredible,however,that we are this far into the Integrated Ticketing process and still faffing about on the issue of Bus Fares.

There is NO alternative,if one is seeking to avail of the maximum benefits of contactless technology,to a single on-bus transaction.One Swipe.

That means a Flat Fare,no if`s,but`s,maybe`s or whataboutery,ity really is that simple.

However,there remains a strong resistance on the part of the Government to surrender direct control over the Cash Fares on Dublin Bus services.

This grim clutching to power has left us with the current absolute mess of a system with far too many non-complimentary products of differing technical standards.

It has to stop if Integrated Ticketing is to succeed on it`s most popular level.

There is also the very large Elephant sitting down the back of the Bus called the DSP Free-Travel Scheme...this Jumbo was a late arrival to the integrated ticketing party and it seems progress on it`s transfer of assets has been slow....very slow.

Once the DSP "Customers" have been migrated,there is going to be a VERY fractious time indeed as long term established users of Free Travel suddenly find their bit of Cardboard is useless....;)

micka

Cheers lxflyer,

Meeting with RPA flyer today - but i think the details which i'm asking for is proprietary info so was hoping it leaked out into the blogosphere..

A similar company in the UK - 'City Car Club' are a partner on the London Oyster card and thats the same tech behind the RPA smartcard which will work on our card-readers.

Regards,

Mike N.

markpb

micka wrote: »

3. Will dublinbikes become part of it?

I doubt it. From my understanding, the DB system is an exact copy of the Paris Velo system. It was designed, implemented and is operated by the same company so I doubt they'll make any changes to the card to make it compatible with ITS and incompatible with their other cities.

In any event, the DB card is just used for PIN verification, the value is stored on the central server. The ITS card stores cash on the card itself. Combining the two systems would be somewhat tricky (but not impossible).

5. Any stats on the amount of folk who have subscribed to dublinbikes up to roughly now?

According to the Dublin Bikes website, it had over 40,000 members by last September. I assume it's grown since then but of course there's no breakdown into how many of those are annual or 3 days tickets.

I need the info as i have to predict the likely take up of registrations for my own company (www.GoCar.ie) if we become part of the 'operator' mix on the new Integrated Smart Card.

I'm not sure you can realistically derive any demand figures for your product from the number of ITS cards in circulation, I doubt there's much of a link at all. Perhaps it would be better to join ITS purely to make it easier for you to attract new customers and react to demand based on actual usage? Maybe I'm missing something.

Stevek101

Dublinbikes and even taxi's are planned to be included on the ITS at some stage in the future.

Carawaystick

As I understand it there is no integrated ticketing scheme. If I wanted to get from Lusk to Milltown under the scheme proposed, I'd use my smart card to tag onto the 33 bus, pay for that as far as the train station, tag on to the train, pay for that as a seperate journey, tag onto a bus at the key to bring me to Kildare Street, pay for that as a seperate journey and then tag onto the luas and pay for that as a seperate journey.

An Integrated ticketing scheme would have me pay for one journey, i.e. from Lusk to Milltown

Also Bus Éireann aren't in the integrated ticketing scheme so if I wanted to get from Balrothery to Skerries, I'd have to pay bus Éireann and then either IÉ or DB also.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

As I understand it there is no integrated ticketing scheme. If I wanted to get from Lusk to Milltown under the scheme proposed, I'd use my smart card to tag onto the 33 bus, pay for that as far as the train station, tag on to the train, pay for that as a seperate journey, tag onto a bus at the key to bring me to Kildare Street, pay for that as a seperate journey and then tag onto the luas and pay for that as a seperate journey.

An Integrated ticketing scheme would have me pay for one journey, i.e. from Lusk to Milltown

Also Bus Éireann aren't in the integrated ticketing scheme so if I wanted to get from Balrothery to Skerries, I'd have to pay bus Éireann and then either IÉ or DB also.

You may get a discounted price if you take separate journeys within a certain time limit - I'm fairly sure that is to be within the ability of the card.

Bus Eireann will be joining after the initial phase with IE, DB and LUAS.

Of course were I going from Lusk to Milltown in peak hour I would not bother with the train or LUAS and would use the 33x to St Stephen's Green and then a 44 - all for EUR 1.85 using a Travel 90 card. The card will be smart enough I understand to have a maximum bus fare.

antoinolachtnai

In the original tender documents a few years ago, 250,000 cards was mentioned as far as I can remember.

It's really a question of promotion. If the scheme invests in promotion, they will get to that in about two years. If they don't, they won't.

For your purposes, I think you would require non-anonymous cards. Without marketing there are likely to be around 100,000 of these cards in issue 18 months after launch. This would basically because of people migrating from old style cards to the new system.

You would need to put a reader in the cars and integrate too, of course.

There is no 'plan' as such to put ITS in taxis. There is a proposal in the draft strategic plan.

AlekSmart

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

In the original tender documents a few years ago, 250,000 cards was mentioned as far as I can remember.

It's really a question of promotion. If the scheme invests in promotion, they will get to that in about two years. If they don't, they won't.

For your purposes, I think you would require non-anonymous cards. Without marketing there are likely to be around 100,000 of these cards in issue 18 months after launch. This would basically because of people migrating from old style cards to the new system.

You would need to put a reader in the cars and integrate too, of course.

There is no 'plan' as such to put ITS in taxis. There is a proposal in the draft strategic plan.

This is where the DSP Free Travel Scheme`s big Elephant In The Room Status becomes even bigger.

The last figure I saw mentioned circa 400,000 Free Travel Scheme Passes in circulation,which seems an astronomical amount.

Whilst most would agree that a single changeover day would be desireable,it appears that the DSP envisage a quite substantial dual-mode period,as long as 18 months.

This of itself will allow for substantial ongoing and perhaps new avenues of fraud and abuse to be explored as yet another period of "Go-Ahead" is endured.

One thing is certain and that is the arrival of Smart technology to the Free Travel Scheme is going to highlight some pretty wild stats indeed.

CIE

So...will "integrated ticketing" so-called be the panacea that makes people overlook the evisceration of public transport options...?

lainey316

Carawaystick wrote: »

As I understand it there is no integrated ticketing scheme. If I wanted to get from Lusk to Milltown under the scheme proposed, I'd use my smart card to tag onto the 33 bus, pay for that as far as the train station, tag on to the train, pay for that as a seperate journey, tag onto a bus at the key to bring me to Kildare Street, pay for that as a seperate journey and then tag onto the luas and pay for that as a seperate journey.

An Integrated ticketing scheme would have me pay for one journey, i.e. from Lusk to Milltown

Also Bus Éireann aren't in the integrated ticketing scheme so if I wanted to get from Balrothery to Skerries, I'd have to pay bus Éireann and then either IÉ or DB also.

There's a difference between the integrated ticketing scheme and the products the operators choose to make available on that scheme. Unless the various transport operators agree to multi-mode products, they can't be available. The scheme would, I understand, support such products if they existed.

Oyster allows a capping because the day travelcard product exists, for example, so it can auto-select that product once the spend merits it.

bk

micka, obviously depending on cost, I think it would be very good for you to go with ITS.

From the description on your website, it looks like you are already using RFID cards, so the cost shouldn't be too great and I'd say it will be a great way to promote your service.

Once ITS comes out, personally I won't use any other service unless it uses ITS. I already carry 4 RFID cards around every day (2 for work, 1 Dublin Bikes, 1 Luas) so I refuse to fill my wallet with yet more redundant pieces of plastic. I think once ITS launches, many people will feel the same way.

Hopefully if ITS is really successful, it will end up being widely used throughout Ireland and all public transport and even other services like contactless payments for small purchases, etc.

antoinolachtnai

Purchase of non-transport services is outside the business scope of the integrated ticket. It is really not suitable for use beyond transport.

The margin on transactions is quite high. For example, it would cost around 6c per use of a Dublin Bike if it were done using ITS.

In addition there are substantial commission charges.

An on-card zonal cap (i.e., a cap depending on how many zones you have travelled through) is outside the technical scope of the current system. It has to do with limitations on the number of counters on the card.

The nature of the project is that the ITS is a ticketing platform. It is not a fare scheme. In principle a fare scheme can be constructed on this platform, but it will be interesting to see how this can actually be done in practice.

etchyed

AlekSmart wrote: »

There is NO alternative,if one is seeking to avail of the maximum benefits of contactless technology,to a single on-bus transaction.One Swipe.

Actually I think this is a bit of a red herring. I've seen bus systems with tag-on and tag-off working perfectly well. All that's required is that the buses have two or more doors. Oh wait...

antoinolachtnai

You cannot have a flat fare in a city as sprawling and low-density as ours. If you do, you will end up with the people near the centre subsidising the people on the outskirts to a vast extent. This will result in higher fares for people closer to the city and drive patronage way down. You will also damage smaller local centres in favour of large ones.

But this is quite far off the OP's question.

paulm17781

Are the RPA still going to issue the new card to people who have a Luas smart card? When I signed up they said they would.

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

Of course were I going from Lusk to Milltown in peak hour I would not bother with the train or LUAS and would use the 33x to St Stephen's Green and then a 44 - all for EUR 1.85 using a Travel 90 card. The card will be smart enough I understand to have a maximum bus fare.

you are assuming I'd be going before 8:30am then as that's the last 33x, and there's none on weekends

Carawaystick

lainey316 wrote: »

There's a difference between the integrated ticketing scheme and the products the operators choose to make available on that scheme. Unless the various transport operators agree to multi-mode products, they can't be available. The scheme would, I understand, support such products if they existed.

Oyster allows a capping because the day travelcard product exists, for example, so it can auto-select that product once the spend merits it.

The difference between London and here is that the companies in the TFL system are owned by different people, whereas Leo Varadkar owns all the companies here.... Surely the owner might kick some heads and asals to sort this out....

AlekSmart

etchyed wrote: »

Actually I think this is a bit of a red herring. I've seen bus systems with tag-on and tag-off working perfectly well. All that's required is that the buses have two or more doors. Oh wait...

And that,etchyed,may well be already being sorted...The new NTA "Dublin Standard" Bus Specification will be entirely dual-door,twin wheelchair space vehicles...but i`m sure it`s not for purely fiscal reasons....

AlekSmart

Carawaystick wrote: »

The difference between London and here is that the companies in the TFL system are owned by different people, whereas Leo Varadkar owns all the companies here.... Surely the owner might kick some heads and asals to sort this out....

Carawaystick !!! ...I do hope you`re not suggesting Leo Varadakar kick Antoins head or asal....:D

micka

From initial discussions with RPA it looks like there is a possibility of integrating GoCar sign-up when one applies for an ITS card online; come September (planned roll-out time).

From tests so far the ITS card works on our GoCar card readers which is great news.

antoinolachtnai states...

Without marketing there are likely to be around 100,000 of these cards in issue 18 months after launch

It's really this - the sheer scale that troubles me (in a happy sense):D

WITHOUT marketing - 100K applying online for an ITS could be provided the optional choice of a GoCar sign-up (if our locations - GoBases are deemed suitable) thus putting consderable strain on vehicle availability which would rightly annoy our customer base if cars are continously booked up weeks in advance...

So we at GoCar need to 'somehow' plan an investment drive to add vehicles to our fleet that will match whatever number of folk will be signing-up from the ITS online website. Even if 1 in a 100 signed up to GoCar via the ITS website that would represent 1000 customers in less then 18 months :eek:

Like good CarShare orgs. world-wide, CarShare vehicles are usually placed at transport hubs / nodes like DB Bahn CarShare which can be seen here - http://www.dbcarsharing-buchung.de/

In this situation DB Bahn owns their CarShare fleet and have the vehicle at most of their main line stations.

That what we're planning too, GoCars at Dart stations etc..

Thanks for all the replies lads..

Michael Newham