Save my fish -- AKA -- A beginners guide: What not to do!!

BigAl81 · 05-04-2011 4:03pm #1

Hey,

The below is a classic "mistakes I've made when getting into fish keeping" post, I've ticked all the boxes. I have an overstocked tank with poor water quality, I was over feeding the fish and they got sick!! I've learned a lot in the last few weeks and things are improving! Below is a description of my set-up, apart from getting a bigger tank ASAP, any pointers are appreciated ;o)

So, unfortunately I have some "sick" fish at the moment ;o( I've been treating them for a few months now to no avail. I thought they had Ich / White Spot but I've ruled that out (girl in the fish shop agrees) and now I suspect fungus. The fish have little fluffy dots between their eyes and gills, and along the front of their front fins, they have had it for a few months now and it has not spread or gotten any worse (or better!!)

Pics of the white dots...

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kK3GFGFx3Dt0NLUay1G4MQ?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/zbKIRvrXeEAtx_I3GqN_8Q?feat=directlink

I tried to following to treat the "white spots", and there has been absolutely no change...
1) Bottle of white spot cure stuff from the fish shop.
2) Salt (forget the exact amount, something like 1 teaspoon per gallon, tried that for about 2 weeks)
3) Heat (heated the tank to 30degrees to kill the parasites, tried this for about 2 or 3 weeks, no change!)
4) A new tank and water every 3 days (did this for 2 weeks, no change)
5) SHA Exit and 2000, 3 courses over 3 weeks (no change!)

My set up is...
Going for 1 year now, 45 litre freshwater tank, Fuval U1 filter (sponge only, no carbon or filter media!) and 75 watt heater, I keep the tank just under 20 degrees C (68 farenhight), have no plants (only fake ones). I have 1 common goldfish, 1 shubunkin, and 1 fancy goldfish (think it's redcap, lionhead and/or oranda?). I also have 2 White Cloud Mountain Minnows and 2 Zebra Danios. All the fish get on fine together for the last year, and all eat well and swim around the tank and look happy enough.

I know the tank is way too small, but it is as a result of bad advice from the local fish shop. I got a 10 litre tank and they told me I could put up to 4 fish in it!!!! I now know it's not even suitable for one! I think the guy was new and I haven't seen him there since! I quickly realised this was way too small so went out and got a tank that was 4 and a half times bigger, this is still too small, so I'm hoping to do a similar upgrade soon (200 litres +). In the mean time, I'm trying to get my fish healthier.

There is deffo some ammonia in there, and I think my tank may be cycling again ;o( as one of my treatments for white spot, I completely stripped the tank down and dried it out (about 2 or 3 months ago). I had also tried heating the water to a little under 30 degrees C (88 Fahrenheit) and this caused the fish to double in size in about 2 weeks, my Shubinkin is about 5 inches+ now and will be in a bigger tank asap.

For maintenance, I scrub the glass and do a partial water change. I may have not been doing this regularly enough, I was aiming for every week,but it sometimes slipped to 10 days or very rarely 2 weeks ;o( I'm on top of it now though now that I know about ammonia and the likes. I wash the filter sponge in tank water, but I was (until last week) washing out the filter itself in tap water, as well as washing the ornaments in tap water, this I now know, does not help my beneficial bacteria so I wont be doing that again! Also, as my tank is over stocked the bacteria may not be able to cope with the amount of ammonia so I am doing 50% daily water changes for the last 7 days but the ammonia is still there. I started to add Ammo-Lock for the last week, up to yesterday, so the Ammonia is still detected, but it is supposedly not toxic to the fish then. Most advice I read says not to use Ammo-Lock as it delays the cycle, so I've stopped and will continue with the 50% daily water changes to lower the ammonia.

I had definitely been overfeeding my fish, a lot ;o( To make sure they were each getting enough food I was sprinkling in loads of flakes, especially so the minnows and danios could get some, this was not helping my water quality as uneaten flakes were sinking to the bottom like snow, so I have drastically reduced this. I have stopped using flakes altogether and I now have sinking pellets that I give to the 3 big fish (goldfish/shubkin/fancy) and granules for the small fish (the granules are really great, they're too small for the big fish so the little guys scoop them all up!). I make sure not 1 piece of food goes uneaten and they all get some! This should help my water quality improve (no food waste and less fish "waste"). It's hard to clean all the gravel as I can only get through around a third of it with the gravel siphon as I dont want to take out more than 50% of the water at a time. I'm hoping as I've sorted my feeding out, and there is less waste all round, there wont be as much 'debris' in the water from now on, a few more water changes and I'll hopefully be on top of it.

I am now getting my water quality under control, I am feeding my fish correctly (no flakes sinking to the bottom) I have the API Master Test Kit, and am doing 50% daily water changes till the ammonia drops / I get the bigger tank and I'm closing down on the disease as I've tried almost everything and the girl in the fish shop reckons she knows what it is, I just have to go back to her with my water test results.

Also, the water has been a bit cloudy the last week, kind of a white/gray colour, which I'm hoping is a bacteria bloom as I have severely reduced feeding the last few days, and perhaps a sign that the cycle is kicking back in!

So my question is am I doing the right thing? Any tips for lowering the ammonia or how best to deal with my overstocked tank until I get the replacement? Any other newbie mistakes in there, and suggestions for what to do better??

Thanks guys,

Big Al!

Date

Ammonia

Nitrite

Nitrate

PH

PH High

30-Mar

< 0.5

0

10 ppm ---- 7.2 to 7.5

7.8
01-Apr

2.0 to 4.0

0

10 ppm ---- 7.2 to 7.5

7.4
02-Apr

4.0

0

10 ppm ---- 7.2 to 7.5

7.4
03-Apr

< 2.0

0

10 ppm ---- 7.2 to 7.5

N/A
04-Apr

4.0 or higher? --- 0.5

10 ppm

7.0

< 7.4

Some of the tests are a bit hard to read, in particualr the PH has some very similar shades of blue, and the Ammonia shades of green are close together as well!

I also tested my tap water and I get zero for everything, maybe 0.25 for ammonia, but the test is hard to read at this end of the scale.

Silverfish · 05-04-2011 4:25pm

BigAl81 wrote: »

So, unfortunately I have some "sick" fish at the moment ;o( I've been treating them for a few months now to no avail. I thought they had Ich / White Spot but I've ruled that out (girl in the fish shop agrees) and now I suspect fungus. The fish have little fluffy dots between their eyes and gills, and along the front of their front fins, they have had it for a few months now and it has not spread or gotten any worse (or better!!)

I'd say you have male fish, and they're breeding tubercles.

From this article:

They develop "breeding tubercles", on the gill operculum, and along the front rays of their pectoral fin, and sometimes on the head. These "breeding tubercles", are a white pimple, roughly the size of a pin head.

Stop adding medication, as it sounds like your fish are fine, and just get the water quality back to 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.

So a 50% water change now, and then 25% daily til there's no ammonia. A lot of medication, particularly if you've been treating for months, as you said, will play havoc with the bacteria in the filter.
Also, get a bottle of Seachem Prime to condition the replacement water before adding to the tank, it removes all of the harmful chemicals, whereas the likes of Stress Coat etc etc only remove some.

EDIT: yes, on closer inspection of the photos, those fish are male and looking to breed. It'll be a case of Brokeback Fishtank for you for a while, they're not fussy on gender

BigAl81 · 06-04-2011 12:33pm

Hey 'Silverfish',

Thanks a million for the excellent and impressively quick response

I figured it had to be breeding tubercles as the spots weren't getting any worse, the medications and natural treatments did nothing at all, and the fish don't seem at all bothered!

I'm hoping to pick up a 260 litre tank later today

A second hand Juwel Vision 260... cant wait!!

Not sure how best to proceed tho, at the moment the fish are in a small tank, with high levels of ammonia that wont seem to drop despite 50% daily water changes for a week. Ideally, I'd do a fish less cycle on the new big tank, but that will take a few weeks.

I was thinking, set the new tank up, leave it a few days, then put in the Zebra Danios and Minnos to help the cycle along as these are hardy fish apparently, and will reduce the load on my smaller tank a bit, then once the cycle is complete, transfer in the others.

On the other hand I dont want to leave the 3 goldfish in a small tank full of ammonia!

I am using Nutrafin Aqua+ to condition the water, I looked up the Prime, it seems a bit more comprehensive, do you think I should use this instead??

Also, how could you tell the fish are male? Any tips I can find to tell, are relative to a female fish eg: The male will have a bigger XYZ when compared to the female, so in isolation it's hard to tell. They are straighter as opposed to round, and they have a line/ridge running the length of their side, is that how you know?

Yeah I think I spotted a bit of 'BrokeBack FishTank' action alright, fortunately for them, I'm an equal opportunities fish keeper! The shubunkin and common goldfish were 'nudging' each other one day recently, at first I thought one might be bullying the other, but both were giving as good as they got. I thought it might have been a territorial thing, so I rearranged the ornaments and they've mostly stopped!

Thanks again for all your helpful advice ;o) Looking forward to getting the new tank set up, decorated, cycled, planted maybe, and full of fish!

Cheers,
Al.

Cookie_Monster · 06-04-2011 12:37pm

when cycling your new tank squeeze the slime outa one of the pads in your current filter into it. This will speed cycling up as it will provide a supply of bacteria rather than waiting for it to establish on it own, helps kick start the process.

Alternatively you could probably put the fish straight in the new tank once it has settled, along with the new filter AND old filter running together. The old filter will provide the bacteria colonies to cope while the new filter's bacteria grow. Not 100% ideal, but may be a better option than leaving them in the smaller bowl

Either way give the new tank a couple of days to settle before doing anything and don't just throw the fish straight in, do like when you get them from the shop and sit them in a bag in it first and allow time to get used to new water parameters.

Silverfish · 06-04-2011 7:13pm

BigAl81 wrote: »

Hey 'Silverfish',

Thanks a million for the excellent and impressively quick response I figured it had to be breeding tubercles as the spots weren't getting any worse, the medications and natural treatments did nothing at all, and the fish don't seem at all bothered!

I'm hoping to pick up a 260 litre tank later today A second hand Juwel Vision 260... cant wait!!

Wowzers, well done you! Great to see goldfish being given space!

Not sure how best to proceed tho, at the moment the fish are in a small tank, with high levels of ammonia that wont seem to drop despite 50% daily water changes for a week. Ideally, I'd do a fish less cycle on the new big tank, but that will take a few weeks.

I was thinking, set the new tank up, leave it a few days, then put in the Zebra Danios and Minnos to help the cycle along as these are hardy fish apparently, and will reduce the load on my smaller tank a bit, then once the cycle is complete, transfer in the others.

On the other hand I dont want to leave the 3 goldfish in a small tank full of ammonia!

My opinion is, take the filter, and the substrate, from the old tank, and put it in the 260L. If you have sponges etc, just wedge them in the new filter along with it's sponges, it doesn't have to look pretty, you just want the bacteria to colonise the new filter as soon as possible.
The theory being, 260L of water is a lot of dilution, and it's better that they are sitting in 260L with trace ammonia rather than 45L with a lot of ammonia.
You'll have to do a good few water changes of 25% to reduce it, but the old filter / substrate should help cycle the tank faster.

If you don't want to put the old substrate in the new tank, put it in a pair of tights, and put that in the water, you can take that out after a few weeks.
I'd recommend Dorset Pea gravel as substrate for goldfish, they like to dig and grub for food at the bottom, and can get stones stuck in their mouth, the pea gravel is small enough for them to spit out, but large enough that they don't swallow it. Get them a few live plants too, ones that they won't eat, like elodea.

I am using Nutrafin Aqua+ to condition the water, I looked up the Prime, it seems a bit more comprehensive, do you think I should use this instead??

Yes, Prime is the business. A few drops will condition the water. Also, you can double dose in an emergency to detoxify ammonia and nitrates.

Also, how could you tell the fish are male? Any tips I can find to tell, are relative to a female fish eg: The male will have a bigger XYZ when compared to the female, so in isolation it's hard to tell. They are straighter as opposed to round, and they have a line/ridge running the length of their side, is that how you know?

I just guessed from the breeding tubercles, I know there's a way of telling by checking their vents, but I've not successfully managed it yet, I pronounced my ranchu female, and the promptly developed tubercles and harassed my oranda so much I had to move her into another tank.

Yeah I think I spotted a bit of 'BrokeBack FishTank' action alright, fortunately for them, I'm an equal opportunities fish keeper! The shubunkin and common goldfish were 'nudging' each other one day recently, at first I thought one might be bullying the other, but both were giving as good as they got. I thought it might have been a territorial thing, so I rearranged the ornaments and they've mostly stopped!

Yeah, a bit of redecorating calms them down a lot.
The thing is, a common goldfish usually grows to a foot long, and prefers much colder temperatures than a fancy goldfish, so he may need a pond when he gets a bit older.

Silverfish · 06-04-2011 7:15pm

Should say, yes, sudden temp changes can have a bad effect on fancy goldfish, they're pretty sensitive, so do try temperature match the water when putting the fish in, like Cookie_Monster said.

lmaopml · 07-04-2011 10:35pm

Thought I would ask a question here rather than start a new thread as the thread title fits everything I've done so far - I think I did something wrong ( overfeeding possibly?)

My Fan Tail goldfish ( Possibly a year old, I have him seven months ) is having trouble swimming every now and then, he seems to be almost floating up to the top of the tank and then struggling not to go on his side - next day he seems fine, but he has a habit of skimming the top of the tank after a feed and may be filling himself up with air or something

He is peppy otherwise and his colour and general behavior is fine, he just seems to have developed an 'air' eating addiction of some sort lately...

I am planning on changing his diet this weekend, after reading some articles online about the problem I'm having with him to sinking pellets and peas once a week - but I don't want to 'kill' him with the changeover from flakes and Daphnia treats every now and then...

Is it really 'ok' to give him peas?

*Disclaimer* Don't eat your lunch or anything before reading the next bit...

Also his poop is weird lately, see through poop with air bubbles, normal one day and then air bubble poop the next.

Any ideas? Thanks.

Silverfish · 08-04-2011 3:13pm

Well, a couple of questions..!

What size tank?
What are the water test results, do you know?

Otherwise it's a bit like asking how many calories is in your soup - but not being able to say what the soup is!

Though if he's a fantail, they have trouble with their swimbladder and intaking air, so try no food for two days, then some frozen garden peas, boil them til they're soft but not mushy, take the shells off, squish them a bit and drop them in. Air bubble poo is a sign that something's not right and they're passing air, so usually the reason is gulping flakes from the surface.

BigAl81 · 08-04-2011 4:04pm

Hey,

Thanks again to 'Silverfish' and 'Cookie_Monster' for the great advice ;o)

I have set up my new tank, turns out its actually a Juwel Vision 180 litre tank, not a 260 litre tank as the guy on Adverts said, lesson learned, don't blindly trust random people selling stuff on the internet! I hope it's still plenty big for 3 gold fish and a few minnows tho.

I set the tank up Wednesday night, the water was crystal clear, but I left it to settle / come up to the same temp etc for 24 hours. I got 4 aquarium plants from IKEA of all places, they have a few different types and were €2.29 each!

To help the cycle along, as suggested, I put the gravel from the old small tank into the new tank, as well as the old filter (I have 2 filters running now). I also squeezed the debris from the old filter foam into the new one to help kick it off. I also put some 'gunk' that I syphoned out of the gravel in the old tank into the new tank to get the cycle started straight away. I added some nutrafin cycle as well!

On Thursday I tested the ammonia in my small tank which was still high (between 2 and 4) so I decided the lesser of 2 evils would be to transfer the fish to the new tank.

I checked the water parameters after a few hours and everything was fine. The fish seem quite happy in their new home. Just a matter of regular water changes until the cycle completes I guess! I'll keep you updated!

Thanks again for all the help ;o)

Cheers,
Al.

Ps: Here's a pic or 2 of the new tank, I've gone from 40 litres to 180 ;o)
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8xI5HuowuiTuRSgKbH4NQg?feat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/PW3lAQ1-VDgOJnlWB2m2qQ?feat=directlink

pps: I broke a fish keeping rule and added some new fish, I have 2 Zebra Danios and I believe they like to shoal around together in groups of 6 to feel safe, so I got 4 more, they're only small so I hope they don't add too much load to the biological filter!! I was worried that as I've reduced feeding the larger goldfish would eat the smaller ones, so safety in numbers!

ppps: 'lmaopml' I use sinking sticks to feed my fish, I add them 1 at a time and make sure all the fish get some, it stops them gulping air at the surface, and I found the flakes leave a residue at the top of the water and make it cloudy! Hope that helps.

lmaopml · 13-04-2011 11:00pm

Thanks. That's exactly what I did Silverfish, I didn't feed for three days and gave him boiled peas, took the outside off and mushed up the inside - He loved it too! Seems to have done the trick, he isn't swimming wonky anymore...

My tank is way too small for my two Goldfish, they are still babies and the tank is only really a starter one - my mistake! I didn't actually 'know' and bought everything on the same day - pet shop said nothing either, so I thought it would be fine....I'm in the process of saving up for a 40gallon and hope to have it cycled and have them re-housed this time next year..

As for the tank I have at the moment, it's only a 15ltr one

, it's filtered and I use a gravel cleaner to change about 60% of the water twice a week, treat the water etc. and leave it overnight before adding it to the tank. It's actually a lot of work tbh - I'm hoping the 40gal will be less work..

I never got the water tested tbh, I thought the tank would be too small to cycle it and it would always be unstable? - So I'm just playing it safe with water changes till I get the new one...second hand preferably

Alkers · 14-04-2011 1:52am

Just one thing I'm not sure was mentioned, you said you were cleaning out your filter sponges and now know not to use tapwater but you don't need to do this very often, only if you notice a reduction in flow from the filter. The sponges in the new juwel filter should be arranged so the the most coarse sponge is the first one the tank water is cycled through, then on top of this you place a thin white sponge that catches larger parts of debris. Juwel say to replace this every month but you can reuse it if you get it clean again using tapwater and giving it a good squeeze. This is ok as the purpose of this sponge is to catch debris rather than for bacteria to grow on. Cleaning this sponge regularly should mean you hardly ever need to clean the rest of the juwel filter out. Good luck!

Save my fish -- AKA -- A beginners guide: What not to do!!

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